Local Yokel
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Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gilbert
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ORIGINAL: Local Yokel
Looking at the Chidoris and the follow-on class of Otoris in the database, I was surprised to note that they start the war with no ASW weaponry whatsoever. My sources aren't particularly comprehensive, but they suggest that both these classes were, in fact, equipped with depth charge throwers before the war's outbreak. Looking at the Chidori drawings in Jentschura et al, I'm confident I can discern a thrower and associated ready-use ammunition rack abaft the monstrous twin 5" mount of the pre-Tomozuru Incident configuration, suggesting that a thrower was carried from the outset.
So I just wondered, are these ships sold a bit short on equipment at the war's outbreak, or do you have data suggesting that depth charge gear was actually not fitted until 1942?
Both Class ships were indeed fitted with 2 depth charge throwers (1Starboard, 1Port) from their completion date. During the war (in 1943-ish), this gear was increased to two or three DC throwers and the addition of 2 stern DC racks for a total of 48DC.
As you have stated, this can be clearly noticed in Jentschura's book and similar drawings can be found in the Japanese publication "Kojinsha's, warships of the IJN" #21.
Regards
Gilbert
The data we have, including Jentschura and Watts indicate the torpedo boat acquisition of depth charges was AFTER the start of the war, some time in 1942. As to exactly when, anyone's guess. Game includes ability to refit all these vessels with depth charges in 1942. If anyone has a source that indicates otherwise please post.
I was relying primarily on Jentschura and Watts, and I can see nothing in that work to suggest that the first fitting of depth charge equipment to either class took place after the war's start, whether in 1942 or otherwise. So I would be interested to learn what other data you have to suggest that the first such installation took place in 1942.
The Jentschura and Watts drawings indicate to me that both classes were equipped from the outset with a single Type 94 Y-gun on the quarterdeck. The drawing of Hatsukari given a 1945 date indicates that the Type 94 device has been replaced by Type 81 single depth charge throwers, probably 3 on each side. The Kiji drawing also given a 1945 date suggests that the original Type 94 has been retained and supplemented either by a second device of the same type, or a pair of Type 81 throwers. Both drawings having a 1945 date also show the presence of depth charge rails at the stern. These rails do seem to have been a later addition, and would probably account for a total outfit of 48 depth charges by the end of the war.
The presence both of the depth charge rails and of the Type 81 throwers is borne out by the drawing of Hatsukari in Fukui Shizuo's 'Japanese Naval Vessels at the End of War', at page 83, and is also indicated by the Pit Road/Skywave drawing of Kiji that accompanies that company's kit of the vessel. The Pit Road drawing also shows the Type 94 Y-gun on Kiji's quarterdeck in 1937.
Unfortunately I couldn't find any photographs that help to resolve the issue. Nearly all pre-war photographs (including those in ONI 41-42) show something in the position of the ready use d/c rack that can be clearly seen in the ONI drawing (and also those in Jentschura and Watts), but unfortunately it's sheeted over. I'm fairly confident I can see that rack in the 1934 photo of Chidori on trials in Jentschura, and if the rack is present it seems inconceivable that the associated Type 94 thrower is not.
All of which still suggests to me that both the Chidori's and the Otori's were equipped with Type 94 Y-guns at the outbreak of the war, and that this equipment was supplemented or changed as the war progressed. Sorry I can't come up with sources that are any more authoritative than those mentioned but, as I said in my original post, my own sources are not comprehensive.
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RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 
. He's already in his eighties, but still full of enthousiasm when it comes to this topic (only recently ago, he did a 'causerie' (short presentation) at the University of Ghent on the early development of the Imperial battlefleet). BTW, I'm pretty sure he's not aware that his publications are still being used so frequently... 
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 
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