RE: War in the East Q&A

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/7/2010 11:00:05 AM

karonagames

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@ ComradeP. Re: Replacements. Well your suggestion managed to start a flame war in the development forum!!!
Seriously though, Joel made the very valid point that the system you proposed could allow players to use very gamey tactics such as creating "Ant" sized units to act as speed bumps (TOAW players are well versed in "Ant" tactics), it could also be used to manipulate HQ efficiency, so the 50% Max TOE setting was chosen as a compromise.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/7/2010 11:49:14 AM

ComradeP

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That's true, and also something I've been thinking about, especially since that AAR where GAIA kept creating brigades.

The only place where I can see it could be gamey would be along the Finnish front, where Soviet players could basically leave shells to guard the border. However, the Soviet player could already simply put forts there and withdraw all actual units as the Finns can't attack across the no attack line anyway.

The reason why I believe it won't work like in TOAW or other games, keeping in mind that the player could already just create a swarm of brigades, is that WitE features hasty attacks and has a fairly minimal ZOC penalty, I believe Jon mentioned that brigades don't give off any ZOC to begin with. In TOAW, an ant legion could slow you down due to the weird way combat and movement were tied to eachother. That isn't possible here, so that entire problem becomes much less of a problem as you could simply have one of your units kick the ants around so the rest would be able to advance. Not to mention that an ant army is also not possible due to HQ control limitations. No matter how many guys are in a division or brigade, I'm guessing the game still treats it as a division or brigade in terms of HQ C&C.

There's also another matter: essentially, the ant tactic is what the Soviet player uses in every match. None of their 1941 units can stand 1:1 against a German unit of the same size, so essentially the Soviet player sacrifices men and equipment to slow down the Germans.

The resources needed to move the ant legion to the front would also mean the rest of the line can become unhinged, as (like with the HQ C&C) I'm guessing the rail transport cost for a brigade or division is always the same no matter how many guys are in it.

Although I too have nightmares of the TOAW ant legions, I don't think that would be possible. However, Joel's concern is perfectly understandable, and one I share to a degree. It's a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't affair.

There's still the possibility of some sort of compromise between preventing ant legions and preventing replacements being sucked to units that don't need them according to you. One problem I didn't think about earlier was that arriving units would also cannibalise the motorpool, so how's this:

-All units that arrive on the map in some way, either through reinforcements (reappearing and regular) or through being created arrive in static mode and are automatically set to 50% TOE.

-Units that arrive in static mode don't pay an AP penalty when being switched to any non-static mode (the same concept as what you described of HQ's switching for arriving units).

-Units in static mode can be set to ~25% TOE.

This solves a number of problems:

-Quiet fronts sucking up replacements. Those fronts are likely to be partially static. Now you might say "but you could pull off the ant legion tactic!". Static units would be toast vs any concentrated attack by a mobile, reasonably up to strength unit, and I doubt the player is going to put many units at the actual frontline at 25% TOE, as like the minor Axis, they would evaporate "when sneezed upon". This would, however, allow you to park units you don't need somewhere in the rear of the line and it will also allow you to cannibalise units, which is a perfectly historical practice. The player could starve a front from replacements just like their historical counterparts did, and they would also feel the consequences if the enemy would attack such a weak front (and basically tear it apart).

-Arriving units would not instantly suck up huge quantities of replacements and would not cannibalise the motorpool.

-It would also make sure the ant legion strategy of creating units and sending them to battle in 1 turn would not be possible, as the units would start as static units.

There are some issues with this approach too, but allowing static units to be set at a lower TOE level would be a good compromise to solve some of the problems that a minimum of 50% TOE setting has.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/7/2010 12:52:10 PM

karonagames

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I will try to make sure Joel reads your post.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/7/2010 10:58:31 PM

Naughteous Maximus

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In regards to modifying the Campaign, what is the earliest date you can launch the German invasion of Russian and the latest that the campaign can end? For those that are willing, I am sure you could do a mod where Germany did not attack Russia in"41 but was attacked by Russia in "42. That would be interesting.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/8/2010 3:15:26 PM

Great_Ajax

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The problem is that you only get the special surprise rules if the campaign starts on 22 June 1941 and some rules are year specific such as unit base morale. Other than that, you could do a scratch scenario on any timeline.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

In regards to modifying the Campaign, what is the earliest date you can launch the German invasion of Russian and the latest that the campaign can end? For those that are willing, I am sure you could do a mod where Germany did not attack Russia in"41 but was attacked by Russia in "42. That would be interesting.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/8/2010 3:24:58 PM

wosung

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According to this Q&A thread stacking limit will be 3 units per 10 mile hex. So for SU that would be 3 corps plus various kinds supporting units, wouldn�t it?

Will this be enough to represent very high late war Soviet troop density in offensive key sectors?

Just to take an extreme IRL example, the Vistula-Oder Operation beginning on January 12th 1945:
-Konev�s 1st Ukrainian Front attacked out of the Sandomirez (Baran�w) bridgehead (45 x 36 miles) along a 18 mile (2 hexes) sector. As grinding and breakthrough forces he used 13th, 52nd Army, parts of 5th Guard and of 60th Army reinforced by 4th Tank Army, 25th and 31st Tank Corps. For exploitation there were 3rd and 4th Guard Tank Army, 31st Tank and 4th Guard Tank Corps. Breakthrough suceeded on January 12th 1945 within half a day.

-On January 14th 1945 Zhukov�s 1st Belorussian Front main attack started out of Magniszew (Warka) bridgehead (12 x 14 miles) along a 10 mile (1 hex) sector. As grinding and breakthrough forces he used 61st Army, 5th Shock(?) Army and 8th Guard Army. For exploitation there were 1st and 2nd Guard Tank Armies plus 2nd Guard Tank Corps. . Breakthrough suceeded on January 15th 1945.

Source: Richard Lakowski, Der Zusammenbruch der deutschen Verteidigung zwischen Ostsee und Karpaten [The collaps of the German defense between the Baltic and the Caparthian mountains], in: Rolf Dieter M�ller, Der Zusammenbruch des Deutschen Reiches [The collaps of the Reich] Vol. 10.2., Munich 2008, p. 513.

Regards

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/8/2010 3:39:21 PM

Helpless

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quote:

Other than that, you could do a scratch scenario on any timeline.

past June 22 1941

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/8/2010 6:30:55 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

According to this Q&A thread stacking limit will be 3 units per 10 mile hex. So for SU that would be 3 corps plus various kinds supporting units, wouldn�t it?

Will this be enough to represent very high late war Soviet troop density in offensive key sectors?

Just to take an extreme IRL example, the Vistula-Oder Operation beginning on January 12th 1945:
-Konev�s 1st Ukrainian Front attacked out of the Sandomirez (Baran�w) bridgehead (45 x 36 miles) along a 18 mile (2 hexes) sector. As grinding and breakthrough forces he used 13th, 52nd Army, parts of 5th Guard and of 60th Army reinforced by 4th Tank Army, 25th and 31st Tank Corps. For exploitation there were 3rd and 4th Guard Tank Army, 31st Tank and 4th Guard Tank Corps. Breakthrough suceeded on January 12th 1945 within half a day.

-On January 14th 1945 Zhukov�s 1st Belorussian Front main attack started out of Magniszew (Warka) bridgehead (12 x 14 miles) along a 10 mile (1 hex) sector. As grinding and breakthrough forces he used 61st Army, 5th Shock(?) Army and 8th Guard Army. For exploitation there were 1st and 2nd Guard Tank Armies plus 2nd Guard Tank Corps. . Breakthrough suceeded on January 15th 1945.

Source: Richard Lakowski, Der Zusammenbruch der deutschen Verteidigung zwischen Ostsee und Karpaten [The collaps of the German defense between the Baltic and the Caparthian mountains], in: Rolf Dieter M�ller, Der Zusammenbruch des Deutschen Reiches [The collaps of the Reich] Vol. 10.2., Munich 2008, p. 513.

Regards

This is a perennial problem in monster East Front games. None of them have really solved it. This one comes closer than most (thanks to the late game shift to corps which in of itself goes a long ways to increase the force to space ratio), but it's very hard to simulate these sorts of unit densities. Regular stacking rules work well enough for ordinary situations, but I'm not sure how to account for circumstances where the Soviets have a chance to create massive bridgeheads. Bear in mind these kind of unit densities didn't occur ad hoc, they take weeks and months of preparation, planning, and positioning of units and supplies. You really don't want a default stacking rule that allows this anywhere and anytime.

The old game 3rd Reich by Avalon Hill had limited bridgehead counters to allow players to stack up to 5 units (as opposed to the ordinary 2 unit stack.) But that was a corps level game.

As a practical matter it may not matter a whole lot. My sense is that the Red Army is well able to achieve its operational goals in the end game once it rides out the 1941-2 period. So it may not be particularly necessary to jump through all the hoops to make this sort of thing work.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/8/2010 8:39:02 PM

Naughteous Maximus

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I was hoping to change the invasion date to either late May or early June '41 and now I'm told I can only choose dates June 22 or after? Thats not really helpful. Why even bother having an editor.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/9/2010 12:49:44 AM

Great_Ajax

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Uh, seriously? How about all the other hundreds of possibilities that occur during this time period?

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

I was hoping to change the invasion date to either late May or early June '41 and now I'm told I can only choose dates June 22 or after? Thats not really helpful. Why even bother having an editor.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/9/2010 2:35:39 AM

Naughteous Maximus

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The Germans had originally planned to launch their invasion of Russia earlier than June 22. I was hoping I would get a chance to do that and try to beat the Russians before the snow fell. I am sure I could do wonderful things with the editor but come on, if you really can't change the date even a little bit I think is a big flaw.

quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Uh, seriously? How about all the other hundreds of possibilities that occur during this time period?

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

I was hoping to change the invasion date to either late May or early June '41 and now I'm told I can only choose dates June 22 or after? Thats not really helpful. Why even bother having an editor.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/9/2010 3:18:55 PM

Theng

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The reason why the Germans had to delay Barbarossa is that they had to overrun the Balkans and Greece with divisions earmarked for Barbarossa to protect their southern flank. If you put allied forces into Yugoslavia and Greece and be ready for them to attack the Germans, then you should be allowed to move the Barbarossa date.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/9/2010 3:50:23 PM

ComradeP

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Even if the start date would always have to be June 22 1941, you could possibly theoretically still edit the scenario to start "earlier" by changing everything else (weather, units), except the start date, to accomodate an earlier start, although the number of possible turns could be a problem for a full campaign. In that case, turn 1 would officially still be called June 22-June 26, but it might as well be March 1941 or any other date, if I understand the problem correctly.

quote:

The reason why the Germans had to delay Barbarossa is that they had to overrun the Balkans and Greece with divisions earmarked for Barbarossa to protect their southern flank. If you put allied forces into Yugoslavia and Greece and be ready for them to attack the Germans, then you should be allowed to move the Barbarossa date.

Why would those Allied forces be in Greece or Yugoslavia and more importantly: how would they get there? They would probably have to invade Yugoslavia, and possibly Greece as well for that to happen. Metaxas and George II might allow British troops on Greek soil, but letting them invade Bulgaria, Albania or Yugoslavia from Greek soil would be a different matter. If you would move the timetable to, say, early March, Prince Paul would still control Yugoslavia (in this alternate history scenario, the Germans could possibly see the political difficulties joining the Tripartite Pact would put Paul in, so they would not ask him to do so). Even with Peter II on the throne, it's pretty unlikely he would allow the British to just walk into Yugoslavia and launch an invasion of Axis territory from there.

Of course, all of that is mostly irrelevant from the perspective that there's no way the British would be able to launch an invasion in 1941, as they would be launching an invasion with less than 100.000 men, many of which would be inexperienced and with little to no means to keep them supplied. They would also be fighting a war on German terms and they would probably all end up dead or as POW's. The main problem the lack of an invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece would pose to the Axis would be that the campaign in North Africa would be even more doomed to fail than it was in real life. An Allied invasion of Axis soil from Yugoslavia or Greece in 1941 is not really something that could've happened in real life, whilst moving the Barbarossa timetable back 3 months isn't all that improbable.

As an aside, by now the Q&A thread needs a summary companion thread for a short summary of all the questions and answers asked thus far. I doubt most people looking for an answer to a certain question would browse through 32 pages and all the other question related threads.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 8/9/2010 3:54:55 PM >

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/9/2010 7:44:12 PM

Naughteous Maximus

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Look, I was comtemplating a campaign where the Germans never had to invade Greece and Yugoslavia, (situation solved through diplomacy) and the Germans still planned the invasion of Russia in mid-May'41. That would give the Germans at least six weeks, (turns) or relative good weather with the exception of possible rainy weather in May. I don't know about you but I would certainly like to see what I could accomplish with those six extra turns. Besides me arguing about the start date

, what is the campaign's end date? Is that changeable? Can I play into '46?

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/9/2010 8:00:59 PM

paullus99

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It is my understanding that the Western Allies will be marching into Berlin sometime in May 1945, regardless of what happens on the Eastern Front - but I'm sure someone will figure out how to remove that particular restriction (I believe someone already has in the old WiR, to depict a war just between Russia & Germany).

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/9/2010 8:35:47 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

Can I play into '46?

The victory point screenshot on the previous page implies that the regular 1941-1945 full campaign will end on 9/30/1945. Considering that production is fixed, after that the game would become problematic from a historical perspective in any case. The end date does make me wonder whether equipment that was in limited production, but which could potentially have been produced in larger numbers, in early to mid 1945 will be in the game.

quote:

It is my understanding that the Western Allies will be marching into Berlin sometime in May 1945, regardless of what happens on the Eastern Front

A reasonable estimate based on the historical flow of the battles on the Eastern Front. As a wild and hopefully incorrect guess, I'm guessing no Allied units will appear on the western edge of the map in 1945, which will essentially mean the Allies are assumed to have been held in Italy and Germany somewhere.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 8/9/2010 8:37:29 PM >

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/10/2010 8:32:41 AM

Naughteous Maximus

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I do not know if this has been brought up and God knows I looked for it but I was wondering if Romania switches from Axis to Allies when the Russians reach the Romanian border or if certain Romanian cities fall to the Russians? Is it also my understanding that Yugoslavia and Bulgaria,(if it is represented in the game) is off limits to both players in regards to entering the territory? What happens if the Russians invade Romania and push the Germans out? Can the German units withdraw into Yugoslavia or are they removed from game play? This game is NOT called War In Russia, (WIR) its called War in the East, so game play should be able to be covered anywhere on the map, not specifically Russia. If the Germans are in the situation later in the game like they were historically, couldn't they withdraw their units into the balkans, since at the latter stages of the war, AG Sud-Ost was incorporated into the eastern front? Russia did reach and invade Yugoslavia. Couldn't triggers be set up to unlock certain events to occur historically, ie. Romania switching sides? Can we, through the scenario editor, be able to incorprate gameplay into the balkans? Why include a map of such proportion if game play is restricted to certain areas? Please understand that I do not hate this game, I like it alot but it has far more potential than you guys are giving it. I speak for the grognards out there, well some of them at least. Why settle for a glass of water when you can have a BEER!

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/10/2010 9:41:51 AM

ComradeP

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The last I heard about minor Axis was that their (potential) surrender/side switch triggers were still being finetuned.

Considering that Italian units start in Yugoslavia, it's possible for Axis units to be in Yugoslavia, but I don't know whether it's possible for German formations to reach all on-map locations at any time.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/10/2010 10:43:35 AM

karonagames

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re Rumania:

Excerpt from manual (subject to change - the garrison requirements are definitely being looked at at the moment)

Rumanian Surrender

Rumania surrenders if Bucharest is Soviet controlled. There is a chance that Rumania will surrender if after January 1, 1942, a Rumanian city or town that is located in the area where the Y coordinate of the hex is equal to or greater than 105 is Soviet controlled. If this condition is met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST) value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for each German Division in Bucharest plus 2 additional points for each Division that is an Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die (10)>ST, then Rumania surrenders.

Example: 2 Infantry Divisions and 1 Elite SS Division in Bucharest would yield an ST of 7 (2 basic + 3 divisions +2 one of the Divisions is Elite SS). Each turn if the conditions were met for possible surrender, then there would be a 30% chance that Rumania would surrender.

Upon Rumanian surrender, all Rumanian air base units, air headquarter units and Army Group and High Command headquarter units will be automatically disbanded. For other Rumanian ground units, if Rumanian and non-Rumanian units are stacked in a hex, then the side whose units have a smaller combat value will have its units automatically disbanded. Rumanian headquarter units will automatically disband if adjacent to an Axis unit and not stacked with a friendly combat unit. All Rumanian units not disbanded (due to automatic disbanding or being stacked with Axis units) will automatically convert to Soviet Rumanian units. When Rumanian units are converted to Soviet Rumanian units, on-map units take Soviet control over all eligible hexes as if they had just moved into that hex. Soviet control of hexes will also occur due to the placement of units created as part of Soviet Rumanian army units (see section 7.3 below). All Rumanian nationality town, city or urban hexes not occupied by a non-Rumanian Axis unit will also change to Soviet control. Any town, city or urban hex that changes to Soviet control will also have adjacent hexes change to Soviet control as long as no non-Rumanian Axis units are in the adjacent hex.

re Bulgaria and Yugoslavia

Excerpt from manual (subject to change)

7.2 Bulgaria and Yugoslavia

At the beginning of the game Axis units may move through Yugoslavia and Bulgaria and trace supply from Yugoslav and Bulgarian rail lines. Soviet units may never enter these countries.

When the first in supply Soviet unit moves adjacent to the Bulgarian or Yugoslavian border, that country automatically surrenders and becomes a �total exclusion zone� for both players. No movement of any type may be made into a total exclusion zone and supply may not be traced through a total exclusion zone. Any Axis unit in the applicable country at the moment of surrender (or any unit of either side subsequently forced to retreat into the country) may move out of that country, but may not move back in once it has moved out. In most cases Bulgarian and Yugoslavian surrenders will be separate events, but a Soviet unit that enters the hex that includes the external borders of both countries (X42, Y120) will trigger the surrender of both countries simultaneously.

re: Design Decisions:

At the moment there are no designer's notes in the manual, nor do I know if there are planned to be any, but I know Joel has been prepared to comment on some design decisions in these forums. My opinion, and I stress it is my personal opinion, as I have nothing to do with the design of the game, is that trying to simulate the political and military goings-on in the Balkans could be a very time-consuming side-show to the main campaign both from the designers and the players point of view.

Trying to simulate the pro-axis, pro-communist, pro-royalist, anti-axis, anti-communist, anti-everything partisan warfare and the changes in who was fighting who and for whom, would be a nightmare and could probably justify a completely separate game being produced. Clearly at the moment, the designers have decided to concentrate on the War in the East outside of the Balkans.

I cannot comment on the features of the editor as I know nothing about its ability to over-ride the Yugoslavian exclusion zone, for example, but I am fairly sure the game end date can be changed, as it has done for the 1941 campaign in the several times I have played it.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 8/10/2010 10:47:57 AM >

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/10/2010 3:15:51 PM

Great_Ajax

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As Bob states, the Rumanian switch is in the game and is being reviewed and tweaked. Yugoslavia and Bulgaria are completely off limits to both sides. Reason being is that if you include access, then you have to model the partisan conflict there. The scope of this game doesn't include the guerilla fighting in the Balkans so it is excluded entirely. The focus is the German-Russian conflict without getting bogged down into Balkans conflict. Yes, there is partisan warfare in Russia but it is very much simplified.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

I do not know if this has been brought up and God knows I looked for it but I was wondering if Romania switches from Axis to Allies when the Russians reach the Romanian border or if certain Romanian cities fall to the Russians? Is it also my understanding that Yugoslavia and Bulgaria,(if it is represented in the game) is off limits to both players in regards to entering the territory? What happens if the Russians invade Romania and push the Germans out? Can the German units withdraw into Yugoslavia or are they removed from game play? This game is NOT called War In Russia, (WIR) its called War in the East, so game play should be able to be covered anywhere on the map, not specifically Russia. If the Germans are in the situation later in the game like they were historically, couldn't they withdraw their units into the balkans, since at the latter stages of the war, AG Sud-Ost was incorporated into the eastern front? Russia did reach and invade Yugoslavia. Couldn't triggers be set up to unlock certain events to occur historically, ie. Romania switching sides? Can we, through the scenario editor, be able to incorprate gameplay into the balkans? Why include a map of such proportion if game play is restricted to certain areas? Please understand that I do not hate this game, I like it alot but it has far more potential than you guys are giving it. I speak for the grognards out there, well some of them at least. Why settle for a glass of water when you can have a BEER!

_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer

(in reply to Naughteous Maximus)

Post #: 950

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/10/2010 3:52:56 PM

Naughteous Maximus

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Thank you for the reply. I am glad to hear about the Romanian's able to switch sides. I hope down the road after this game has been released, you guys could eventually include the balkans into game play and if not, allow the player to be able to mod it. I have extensive OOB's and maps of the balkan campaign '41 - '45 and that of the eastern front on books that are no longer published. I have all the books from W.Victor Madeja that he came out with before he stopped producing them from the 1980's and early '90's. If you guys need any info on OOB's or unit map locations, I can e-mail you them. The books I of his, cover the eastern front autumn'41 and summer'43 to end of the war. I also have a book just dealing with the balkans from '41-'45 if you are interested.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/10/2010 4:49:40 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

a Rumanian city or town that is located in the area where the Y coordinate of the hex is equal to or greater than 105

What's the first city that qualifies, Sibiu in the Carpathians, with Galati amongst the more realistic first-capture options? Do formerly Romanian cities (primarily in the Moldavian SSR) count towards Romanian production when captured by the Axis or are they just captured centres like any others? Do the inhabitants of the area count towards captured manpower or can the Romanians use them?

Similarly, does a place like Viipuri count as Finnish production or as captured production when it's in Axis hands?

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 8/10/2010 4:54:45 PM >

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/11/2010 1:11:43 PM

karonagames

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Tulcea is the first town that qualifies under the above rule, and Galati is the first city.

I can't see anything in the current rules that treats former Rumanian cities as anything other than "normal" captured cities. Likewise, Viipuri (which is Vyborg on the WITE map) has no special rules applied.

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RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/11/2010 1:19:12 PM

jaw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

Thank you for the reply. I am glad to hear about the Romanian's able to switch sides. I hope down the road after this game has been released, you guys could eventually include the balkans into game play and if not, allow the player to be able to mod it. I have extensive OOB's and maps of the balkan campaign '41 - '45 and that of the eastern front on books that are no longer published. I have all the books from W.Victor Madeja that he came out with before he stopped producing them from the 1980's and early '90's. If you guys need any info on OOB's or unit map locations, I can e-mail you them. The books I of his, cover the eastern front autumn'41 and summer'43 to end of the war. I also have a book just dealing with the balkans from '41-'45 if you are interested.

The reason we excluded the Balkans is that the game system is designed to model mechanized operations measured in weeks not a counter-insurgency campaign measured in years. No amount of modifying will change that.

(in reply to Naughteous Maximus)

Post #: 954

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/11/2010 7:15:11 PM

Naughteous Maximus

Posts: 301
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline

If the balkans are off limits, why have I seen pictures of Italian units stationed in the balkans? There should be no units in there at all. If they are there, what purpose to they serve, not anti-partisan, since the game system is designed to model mechanized operations and not counter-insurgency.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to jaw)

Post #: 955

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/11/2010 7:47:54 PM

Great_Ajax

Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline

They are there in case the Soviets pull off some miracle and are on the offensive in 1942-43 then the Italians can be commited. I don't see that as very improbable to ever happen and the Italians all withdraw in 1943 anyways.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

If the balkans are off limits, why have I seen pictures of Italian units stationed in the balkans? There should be no units in there at all. If they are there, what purpose to they serve, not anti-partisan, since the game system is designed to model mechanized operations and not counter-insurgency.

_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer

(in reply to Naughteous Maximus)

Post #: 956

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/11/2010 7:49:32 PM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline

Presumably they're static garrisons with no effect on gameplay.

Not sure why anybody would be so hot on starting Barbarossa in May as the Axis. Historical weather in the east was mud; but if you want to waste the surprise attack turn on a mud march, be my guest, I'd be perfectly delighted with that as the Soviet player. It was the weather as much as anything else that precluded an attack before June.

(in reply to Naughteous Maximus)

Post #: 957

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/11/2010 8:58:33 PM

Naughteous Maximus

Posts: 301
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline

Who in their right mind would want to commit Italians to the eastern front? Other than using them as a speed bump or garrison, they are utterly worthless. If your Italian and you take great pride in Mussolini's army, then "yes", I said it, "Your army sucked, except for a few units"!

So once all Italians are removed from the balkans in'43, there will be no units there through out the rest of the campaign. Am I correct in this assumption?

quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

They are there in case the Soviets pull off some miracle and are on the offensive in 1942-43 then the Italians can be commited. I don't see that as very improbable to ever happen and the Italians all withdraw in 1943 anyways.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

If the balkans are off limits, why have I seen pictures of Italian units stationed in the balkans? There should be no units in there at all. If they are there, what purpose to they serve, not anti-partisan, since the game system is designed to model mechanized operations and not counter-insurgency.

(in reply to Great_Ajax)

Post #: 958

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/11/2010 9:01:32 PM

ComradeP

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline

Are German units in Yugoslavia abstracted/do units that get send to Yugoslavia from the Eastern Front disappear from the map even though they technically remain on-map?

(in reply to Naughteous Maximus)

Post #: 959

RE: War in the East Q&A - 8/11/2010 9:32:29 PM

Great_Ajax

Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline

Your assumption is correct.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

Who in their right mind would want to commit Italians to the eastern front? Other than using them as a speed bump or garrison, they are utterly worthless. If your Italian and you take great pride in Mussolini's army, then "yes", I said it, "Your army sucked, except for a few units"! So once all Italians are removed from the balkans in'43, there will be no units there through out the rest of the campaign. Am I correct in this assumption?

quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

They are there in case the Soviets pull off some miracle and are on the offensive in 1942-43 then the Italians can be commited. I don't see that as very improbable to ever happen and the Italians all withdraw in 1943 anyways.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

If the balkans are off limits, why have I seen pictures of Italian units stationed in the balkans? There should be no units in there at all. If they are there, what purpose to they serve, not anti-partisan, since the game system is designed to model mechanized operations and not counter-insurgency.

_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer

(in reply to Naughteous Maximus)

Post #: 960

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RE: War in the East Q&A