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RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 1:04:46 PM   
oldspec4

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 11/1/2004
Status: offline 		excellent write-up...thanks for doing this.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 31
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 1:25:19 PM   
Blind Sniper


Posts: 863
Joined: 8/9/2008
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

excellent write-up...thanks for doing this.


Indeed.
It helped me to understand how some symbols work.

Thanks

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Post #: 32
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 1:30:02 PM   
Seydlitz69


Posts: 41
Joined: 10/18/2009
Status: offline 		Thx. Great write-up- This explained a lot to me.

(in reply to Blind Sniper)
Post #: 33
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 5:40:41 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Glad you all liked it and it helped some.

Hope you all enjoy the game as much as I do.

< Message edited by Barthheart -- 8/29/2010 5:41:00 PM >

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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
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Post #: 34
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 6:38:49 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		So, combat works pretty much like in AT?

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 35
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 6:40:45 PM   
dougb

 

Posts: 144
Joined: 4/5/2009
Status: offline 		Just like to chime in with my thanks as well. I'm really enjoying the game so far though I've spent the little time that I've had just tinkering and reading the manual. I think that these examples are tremendously helpful as a few things appear to get only very short explanations in the manual (and some none at all).

Best wishes,

Doug

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 36
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 6:54:40 PM   
GFelz

 

Posts: 479
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Excellent post. My first game was Case White as the Poles. Of course I was really uncertain of what I was doing: read everything but its still new. Everything was set for historical. Every turn was tense. I must admit, it was only until the last couple of turns did I realize that I was going to win. Lodz ended up being a smoking ruin for a week or so!

Very tense and your post clearly demonstrates the ability of the game to model combined arms. Thanks

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Post #: 37
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 7:10:49 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

So, combat works pretty much like in AT?


Similar but with reworked values and some routines.

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but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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Post #: 38
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 7:15:10 PM   
TPM

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oldspec4

excellent write-up...thanks for doing this.


Again, thanks...this was really helpful.

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Post #: 39
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/29/2010 9:53:10 PM   
sanderz

 

Posts: 862
Joined: 1/8/2009
From: Devon, England
Status: offline 		thank you

that really helped - several little tips i hadn't noticed


most useful to me was the explanation of the combat stacking info on the combat screen (which i don't think was explained in the manual) - i had been trying for BIG numbers which must have made my combs very inefficient - but if i read you correct attackers should be aiming for a attack stack value of equal or just below the the def stack value

presumably the combat values on the actual units will give you a better idea of the likely combat outcome?

once again thanks

doc

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 40
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/30/2010 3:20:46 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz
....
- but if i read you correct attackers should be aiming for a attack stack value of equal or just below the the def stack value


No that's not quite it. The attack stack value is show as "xx/yy" where "xx" is the stacking points of all the attacking units and "yy" is the maximum stacking points before penalty. "xx" increases with each units added to teh attack while the only way to increase "yy" is to attack for more than 2 sides.

The defending stack points doesn't figure into that. BUT if you have more than 100 stack points in a defneding hex it is consideered overstacked and they will suffer more casualties because of it.

You can see if you are over stacking by selecting a hex and looking at the very top line of the main screen, top yellow circle in attached pic. This is the total stack points present in that hex. The lower yellow circle shows the stack points for the top unit in this stack. This is under the "Unit details" tab.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz
presumably the combat values on the actual units will give you a better idea of the likely combat outcome?


This is kind of true. The numbers relate the realative strengths of each unit based on all the factors of that unit, ie supply, integrity, readiness, experience, morale entrenchment. But units with the same numbers would not necessarily fight to a stand off. If an armoured unit fights an infantry unit that has the same number shown on it's counter but that has no AT ability then the armoured unit will probably win out as tanks are devistating against infantry in the open.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz
once again thanks

doc


Your welcome. Just hope that helps out some more.




Attachment (1)

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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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Post #: 41
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/30/2010 8:59:52 AM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2576
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Very much appreciated, thanks Barthheart.

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Post #: 42
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/30/2010 9:29:02 AM   
Blind Sniper


Posts: 863
Joined: 8/9/2008
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline 		Question about recon:
Does a low recon value effect on combat outcome?
I mean, less enemy intelligence less effective attack

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Post #: 43
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/30/2010 9:56:13 AM   
Hexagon


Posts: 1133
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for the minitutorial, i think that this is important to know more about the game for example i know now that a R in unit counter, right side, is refered to recon (same for infantry units with this R in the middle of NATO symbol or means reservist??? i think that is the last option) maybe another good post could refer to units, counters and what mean symbols and unit values

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 8/30/2010 10:14:44 AM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/30/2010 11:51:05 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

Question about recon:
Does a low recon value effect on combat outcome?
I mean, less enemy intelligence less effective attack


No it's doesn't affect combat other than you might get a surprised by a larger unit than you thought!

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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Post #: 45
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/30/2010 11:53:11 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Thanks for the minitutorial, i think that this is important to know more about the game for example i know now that a R in unit counter, right side, is refered to recon (same for infantry units with this R in the middle of NATO symbol or means reservist??? i think that is the last option) maybe another good post could refer to units, counters and what mean symbols and unit values


You're welcome.

Yes the small R in the nato counter means the units contains reserve troops.

I might do a unit description post if I can find the time.


_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 46
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/30/2010 1:03:29 PM   
olivier34

 

Posts: 1055
Joined: 5/10/2010
From: montpellier
Status: offline 		Thanks for this, I did'nt buy the game allready but I sure will. I like the idea of the zoc value, that you need 4x enemy value to get the control of a hex. Players, I would love to read an AAR and hear about the AI. Is the AI reacting correctly or doing weird things ?

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 47
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/30/2010 2:02:17 PM   
Dennistoun


Posts: 233
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Perth, Scotland.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon
maybe another good post could refer to units, counters and what mean symbols and unit values

I think also that would be nice.

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 48
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/31/2010 9:49:46 AM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		Thanks so much for writing this!

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Post #: 49
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 8/31/2010 7:00:19 PM   
gjbirch

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		Many thanks for the write up. I have been playing as the Poles in Case White (like GFelz) and this cleared a few items up for me. Well done! 

(in reply to U2)
Post #: 50
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 9/2/2010 8:48:32 PM   
tgb

 

Posts: 766
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you.  This does a much better job of explaining combat than the manual.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 51
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 9/5/2010 2:46:53 PM   
Blutch


Posts: 56
Joined: 9/12/2009
Status: offline 		Great ! Playing in a different scale, I didn t seen some details !

Thanks

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 52
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 9/6/2010 8:13:51 AM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline 		I think I'll join in this love fest too. YOU should have written the manual. I learned more about the mechanics of the game by following you Detailed Combat Example than I did from the manual or any other post.

You know, you could takes a little time and show us more.....

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(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 53
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 9/6/2010 2:57:53 PM   
Topo

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Agree, this is way more useful than the manual, thanks!

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 54
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 9/9/2010 10:44:24 PM   
rayhughes

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 9/9/2010
Status: offline 		Many many thanks for your helpful post. This is what we need indeed. Any further contributions are most welcome

(in reply to oldspec4)
Post #: 55
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 9/10/2010 4:42:53 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Right on!I was just going to post,but you have answered my question.Thanks.

(in reply to rayhughes)
Post #: 56
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 9/13/2010 12:49:47 AM   
Rocko911

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Anyway we could get this in a pdf? It was very helpfull. Thanks

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 57
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 9/26/2010 1:18:45 AM   
Krupinski


Posts: 365
Joined: 8/28/2010
Status: offline 		a nice addition to the manual !! Thanx a lot! 

(in reply to Rocko911)
Post #: 58
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 10/1/2010 8:44:52 AM   
cillmhor


Posts: 26
Joined: 3/10/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you for the very clear explanation of what happens in combat. I have a couple of other questions relating to combat. When artillery or aircraft attack a stack with multiple units, they don't always appear to do equal damage to each unit. I haven't looked at it systematically yet, and so it may be that on some of the occasions I have seen this, the unit types may have been armoured and infantry and so more or less vulnerable to the type of attack. But I'm almost sure it has also occured for the same unit type. Is damage from artillery and air strikes variable on stacks? Would this be due to some units being dug in, or other factors, or are units targeted individually and so variable results can occur?

Also I have noticed fortifications, urban and heavy forest appear to negate the effects of artillery and air strikes somewhat, but againI may be mistaken here?

And is there an element of fog of war in air strikes and artillery strikes, leading you to believe that more or less damage was done to a unit than actually was?

Also does range come into play for artillery strikes, does an adjacent hex strike do more damage than a strike made from the 2-hex range? And with airstrikes is it modelled that airgroups closer to the target get more time over the target?




< Message edited by cillmhor -- 10/1/2010 8:47:45 AM >

(in reply to Krupinski)
Post #: 59
RE: Detailed Combat Example - 10/1/2010 4:14:15 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cillmhor

Thank you for the very clear explanation of what happens in combat. I have a couple of other questions relating to combat. When artillery or aircraft attack a stack with multiple units, they don't always appear to do equal damage to each unit. I haven't looked at it systematically yet, and so it may be that on some of the occasions I have seen this, the unit types may have been armoured and infantry and so more or less vulnerable to the type of attack. But I'm almost sure it has also occured for the same unit type. Is damage from artillery and air strikes variable on stacks? Would this be due to some units being dug in, or other factors, or are units targeted individually and so variable results can occur?


Glad I could help out.

Yes each unit will probably be affected by bombardments differently based on their entrenchment values. Also different types of bombardments affect different type if troops more or less. Ie He-111, Do-217 and JU-88's are more effective against soft troops and structures, while JU-87's have more effect on guns and vehicles.

quote:


Also I have noticed fortifications, urban and heavy forest appear to negate the effects of artillery and air strikes somewhat, but againI may be mistaken here?


Yes these types of terrain reduce the affects of bombardment. So try to use level bombers to destroy fortifications before arty strikes to damage the unit.

quote:


And is there an element of fog of war in air strikes and artillery strikes, leading you to believe that more or less damage was done to a unit than actually was?


No you get a true value of the damage done.

quote:


Also does range come into play for artillery strikes, does an adjacent hex strike do more damage than a strike made from the 2-hex range? And with airstrikes is it modelled that airgroups closer to the target get more time over the target?


No for arty but yes as you describe for air strikes.


_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to cillmhor)
Post #: 60
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