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RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 8:39:23 PM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

OK Guys,

If we are going down the pantheon of "worst books", I'll see your Madame Bovary/White Plague and raise you the following, both books big enough to choke the wheels on a semi trailer:

(1) The Hunchback of Notre Dame by Victor Hugo. Read it years ago straight after The Count of Monte Cristo by Dumas. The Hunchback was OK, not very exiting compared to the Count, but similar to anarchyintheuk, I felt like throwing Esmeralda off the belfry. What really was excruciating was reading the 30 page chapter, which solely comprised of listing in painstaking detail and with very few paragraph breaks, of each building one could see from the belfry in medieval Paris.

(2) The Island of the Day Before by Umberto Eco. His first novel, the Name of the Rose, was excellent, quite erudite but well paced. The Island started off well but then fell into the trap often exhibited by too many European "intellectuals" of showing off just how brilliant and well read they are by engaging in "deep" discussions where they can use big words. A 20 odd page chapter solely on rocks and whether they were alive was just too much.

Alfred

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 31

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 8:49:31 PM

JeffroK

Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

All that Economic learning by American Politicians, and just how screwed up is the American economy?
Even the South Pacific Peso is near parity.

PS. Economic Forecasters are only allowed on this Earth to make Weather Forecasters look good.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 32

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 9:01:19 PM

7th Somersets

Posts: 282
Joined: 5/25/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I assume, for example, it would mean that in a history course, teaching about the ramifications of the Versailles Treaty (post WWI and factors leading to WWII) Keynes 1919 book on the damage to the German economy from the war reparations imposed by the Versailles Treaty, would not be included in the course.

The 'ramifications' of the Versailles treaty are 'taught'. The British are these days very good at blaming ourselves for other people's actions.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 33

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 9:01:19 PM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

All that Economic learning by American Politicians, and just how screwed up is the American economy?
Even the South Pacific Peso is near parity.

PS. � Economic Forecasters are only allowed on this Earth to make Weather Forecasters look good.

Need to distinguish between economists and econometricians. Even the latter can sometimes come up with useful models, unfortunately the outcomes of their models (even the OK ones) then have to be simplified for widespread understanding, losing almost all value in the process.

Alfred

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 34

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 9:52:28 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

Anyone else get gut cramps when they think about Dune by Francis Herbert?

No, not cramps... i have a slightly different reaction...

After i read this, i tried finding out why people liked it so much... the most cogent explanation i found was "it's long!!"

Years later i had a friend that was hired as a "subcontractor" for another writer trying to explain "the science of Dune"... this was a major undertaking since there really wasn't any science in it... i got drafted into making up names for microorganisms at one point that were used to try to explain things...

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 35

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 10:07:21 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

Completely off topic.

@JWE

In September, they announced in the staff conference that they needed someone to teach programming to a bunch of final year students in the Sound and Music Technology program. I thought for a moment and stuck my hand up--I had done my PhD research in computational neuroacoustics, and I had had a bunch of years working in radar and sonar systems. At that point, I was wondering why they had never asked me to teach these students--I suppose it's because we're a UK computing department, and the department management team had never imagined that UK computing lecturers might know something other than computing.

So I met the students for the first week and I discovered the students were totally hacked-off by the uni and had no desire whatsoever to take yet another programming course. So I decided to teach them acoustics--something the program had never bothered to cover--I suppose it's because we're a UK computing department and that would be slightly outside our speciality. So they've had an enjoyable semester with me introducing them to the wonders of acoustics. There has been a little math and a little computing, but mostly we've done science. Now the students want me to keep going...

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to JWE)

Post #: 36

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 10:10:42 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

Anyone else get gut cramps when they think about Dune by Francis Herbert?
No, not cramps... i have a slightly different reaction...

After i read this, i tried finding out why people liked it so much... the most cogent explanation i found was "it's long!!"

Years later i had a friend that was hired as a "subcontractor" for another writer trying to explain "the science of Dune"... this was a major undertaking since there really wasn't any science in it... i got drafted into making up names for microorganisms at one point that were used to try to explain things...

The book chronicalling the son who turns into a worm was the most pretencious. He could put an entire stadium to sleep with those long winded speeches.

_____________________________

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Post #: 37

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 10:18:59 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

I enjoyed the first book and threw the second across the room. The Dune Encyclopedia is --ah-- interesting.

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Post #: 38

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 10:35:41 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Ditto. Loved the first. I never finished the second.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 39

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 11:40:10 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

I forced my way through the first book just to ensure that I was getting the full experience of the rave reviews heaped upon it by so many of my friends. When I finished-and was left with a sucking void in my soul where I had enjoyed SF in the past-I swore off friend-recommended SF for a good decade.

Only Harry Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat" series brought me back from the brink. Wonderful stuff.

_____________________________

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)

Post #: 40

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/3/2010 11:51:10 PM

JeffroK

Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

I thought Dune was a game?

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(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 41

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 12:05:30 AM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I thought Dune was a game?

i think that was "Doom"

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 42

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 12:18:41 AM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

We had a number of American students over for Thanksgiving dinner, and this came up. They were comparing their experience of a UK university with their programs back home, and the marked numerical illiteracy of UK students was commented on.

The level of math learning among US elite students, such as those who study abroad, is very good, far better than it was in my days in high school in the 70s. Advanced Placement Calculus, even differential equations, is taught in most of the better high schools today. In contrast, my HS had one section of 12th grade basic calculus, and to get there one had to be properly tracked in 8th grade. I wasn't.

However, the average level of math ability in the general student population, as measured by standardized tests, is pretty bad. Something like 20th now on a world industrialized scale. Many of our teens are not prepared to take up even blue collar jobs like carpentry which require a pretty high level of ability to do geometry, estimate job materials and costs, and perform simple bookkeeping.

Public education in the US is sub-par IMO, and I am from the US. I graduated high school one of the highest ranked in my class, but when I went to college, I nearly failed in the mathematics courses because I was completely unprepared. The problem comes down to the fact that public education is geared the lowest performing students, not the high performing students.

If you can manage to go to a school with advanced classes available, chances are you will do well...the problem is that the standards are not up to that level, they are set far, far lower. And those standards are what is taught to the majority of students...to their detriment.

_____________________________

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'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 43

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:15:24 AM

Bullwinkle58

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Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

1st book was great.....the following books became tedious, 2nd only to a Robert Jordan novel.

I agree. I made it part way through "Children of Dune", don't even remember if that was #2 or #3. Stopped there. But the original is magnificent.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 44

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:24:00 AM

USSAmerica

Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

I read all of the Dune novels several times, and read the newer one's, written by Frank's son from his notes, about a year ago. I really enjoyed the huge size of the story.

There was also a mention above of Robert Jordan. Many months of my life have been spent reading and rereading his Wheel of Time novels over the last 20 years. I'm currently over tired from staying up way too late several nights this week, reading the newest novel in the series.

I have nothing to say that would be officially on topic.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 45

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:24:19 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

The specialization of education is one of the great tragedies of the last century. The giants of science, literature, music and the arts of prior centuries had much more well-rounded educations.

Liberal Arts has become contemptible in our society apparently. That is our great, great loss.

While Mr. Jefferson had a lot less to know to be a Renaissance Man in his time, I agree with your general point. I went to college in a simpler time, with parents who had not gone themselves, and figuring that a job would take care of itself, somehow, someday. I went to "furnish my mind", not to learn a trade. I tried to sample many areas of human endeavor, and largely succeeded I think. In my 50s I can still access the Shakespeare I learned and apply it to plays I'm seeing for the first time. I can read the newspaper and use the Logic I learned from Professor Peter Heath, late of Oxford University. And I hear Norman Graebner's voice demanding we consider national means as well as ends when I listen to a presidential press conference.

OTOH, my first semester's tuition at Mr. Jefferson's University in Charlottesville was $550. If my son or daughter today was considering a semester's study of Human Sexuality (a great course; I recco it heartily in theory) at the current bill of something more like $10,000, I'd ask them to consider something a little less like furniture, and more like a job offer. The world has changed. Not for the better, but there it is.

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The Moose

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 46

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:26:58 AM

JeffroK

Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I thought Dune was a game?

i think that was "Doom"

Nope

Avalon Hill did one, from www.grognard.com
http://www.grognard.com/reviews/dune1.txt

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to rtrapasso)

Post #: 47

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:27:47 AM

USSAmerica

Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I thought Dune was a game?

i think that was "Doom"

Nope

Avalon Hill did one, from www.grognard.com
http://www.grognard.com/reviews/dune1.txt

Yep. Based on the book. I owned it and played many times during high school.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 48

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:27:59 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

All that Economic learning by American Politicians, and just how screwed up is the American economy?
Even the South Pacific Peso is near parity.

PS. � Economic Forecasters are only allowed on this Earth to make Weather Forecasters look good.

Need to distinguish between economists and econometricians. Even the latter can sometimes come up with useful models, unfortunately the outcomes of their models (even the OK ones) then have to be simplified for widespread understanding, losing almost all value in the process.

Alfred

True, but that also leapfrogs the OP's seeming contention that American politicians are in any way "in charge" of the US economy. They didn't cause this one, and they won't fix it. At best they bring it hot soup and a nice blankie.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 49

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:28:48 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

OK Guys,

If we are going down the pantheon of "worst books", I'll see your Madame Bovary/White Plague and raise you the following, both books big enough to choke the wheels on a semi trailer:

(1) The Hunchback of Notre Dame by Victor Hugo. Read it years ago straight after The Count of Monte Cristo by Dumas. The Hunchback was OK, not very exiting compared to the Count, but similar to anarchyintheuk, I felt like throwing Esmeralda off the belfry. What really was excruciating was reading the 30 page chapter, which solely comprised of listing in painstaking detail and with very few paragraph breaks, of each building one could see from the belfry in medieval Paris.

(2) The Island of the Day Before by Umberto Eco. His first novel, the Name of the Rose, was excellent, quite erudite but well paced. The Island started off well but then fell into the trap often exhibited by too many European "intellectuals" of showing off just how brilliant and well read they are by engaging in "deep" discussions where they can use big words. A 20 odd page chapter solely on rocks and whether they were alive was just too much.

Alfred

You must love Melville's chapters on the habits of whales, including their disassemblage.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 50

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:31:51 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I thought Dune was a game?

Yes, right before "Command and Conquer."

Now let your grandparents converse in peace, lad.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 51

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:35:21 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

If you can manage to go to a school with advanced classes available, chances are you will do well...the problem is that the standards are not up to that level, they are set far, far lower. And those standards are what is taught to the majority of students...to their detriment.

Well, I live with and love a special education teacher, so I see the other end of the pipe.

I agree that the average demanded of the middle 2/3 is not high enough to sustain our modern economy in the long term. As big a problem I see is the No Child Left Behind nonsense, which has reduced secondary education back to the 3Rs, and none too well at that. There is more to an education than that.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 52

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 4:54:25 AM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

True, but that also leapfrogs the OP's seeming contention that American politicians are in any way "in charge" of the US economy. They didn't cause this one, and they won't fix it. At best they bring it hot soup and a nice blankie.

If only they would leave it alone!

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 53

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 5:30:27 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

Never thought my little joke post about picking up a carrier on the cheap would start this!

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
I realize this whole thread is OT, but you probably had the only 3 American students with a realistic education. for your dinner party.

My dear fellow, the whole idea of a scientific education is being supressed in every progressive country in the Western world. 40 years ago, I went to MIT looking for entry, and was told I should apply to one of the 'feeder' colleges; Smith, Bates, Bowdoin, Brown, Dartmouth, Amherst, etc. because, even then, courses at the Tute were taught by non-English speaking assistants.

That was 40 years ago; feed forward.

I went to Cal Poly, SLO about 25 years ago. After growing up in East LA, it was a bit of a culture shock to be surrounded by so many white people. The meaty classes were all taught by real professors and were limited to 35 students. Technical labs were limited to 20 students. We had a few professors who didn't speak very good English, but most were American born and spoke good English. The best professors were those who had retired from industry.

I tutored several subjects during the 4 years I was there and I did note a sharp decline in skill among the Freshmen during the time I was there. My last quarter I had one who was taking the first Calculus class over again because she flunked the first time. She was in a panic because she had never had even a B in her life before college and now her GPA was under 2.0. She had gone to an elite prep academy in the Bay Area and that hadn't prepared her for the realities of college coursework.

Of course most of the students I saw were the ones in trouble, but earlier on they had the raw background to get the material with some extra explanation, but later some really needed to go back and do Algebra over again before they were going to get it.

Bill

_____________________________

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Post #: 54

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 5:31:16 AM

IronWarrior

Posts: 801
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: Beaverton, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

All that Economic learning by American Politicians, and just how screwed up is the American economy?
Even the South Pacific Peso is near parity.

PS. � Economic Forecasters are only allowed on this Earth to make Weather Forecasters look good.

Silly British. All they need to do is borrow the money from the Chinese to maintain their assets.

_____________________________

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 55

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 6:32:31 AM

Pascal_slith

Posts: 1651
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: back in Commiefornia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

Anyone else get gut cramps when they think about Dune by Francis Herbert?
No, not cramps... i have a slightly different reaction...

After i read this, i tried finding out why people liked it so much... the most cogent explanation i found was "it's long!!"

Years later i had a friend that was hired as a "subcontractor" for another writer trying to explain "the science of Dune"... this was a major undertaking since there really wasn't any science in it... i got drafted into making up names for microorganisms at one point that were used to try to explain things...

Any of the Harry Potter books makes me retch like this...

_____________________________

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Post #: 56

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 3:08:22 PM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

OK Guys,

If we are going down the pantheon of "worst books", I'll see your Madame Bovary/White Plague and raise you the following, both books big enough to choke the wheels on a semi trailer:

(1) The Hunchback of Notre Dame by Victor Hugo. Read it years ago straight after The Count of Monte Cristo by Dumas. The Hunchback was OK, not very exiting compared to the Count, but similar to anarchyintheuk, I felt like throwing Esmeralda off the belfry. What really was excruciating was reading the 30 page chapter, which solely comprised of listing in painstaking detail and with very few paragraph breaks, of each building one could see from the belfry in medieval Paris.

(2) The Island of the Day Before by Umberto Eco. His first novel, the Name of the Rose, was excellent, quite erudite but well paced. The Island started off well but then fell into the trap often exhibited by too many European "intellectuals" of showing off just how brilliant and well read they are by engaging in "deep" discussions where they can use big words. A 20 odd page chapter solely on rocks and whether they were alive was just too much.

Alfred

You must love Melville's chapters on the habits of whales, including their disassemblage.

Yep. So much so that I only got through half way before deciding to take a "rest". Do plan to eventually get back to finish it because I dislike being defeated and I can't see any movie or tv mini series of Moby Dick until I have read the book.

Alfred

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 57

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 3:26:46 PM

steamboateng

Posts: 354
Joined: 3/21/2010
From: somewhere in Massachusetts
Status: offline

If your reading 'Harry Potter', you may be too young for this forum!

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Post #: 58

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 5:04:12 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

If you can manage to go to a school with advanced classes available, chances are you will do well...the problem is that the standards are not up to that level, they are set far, far lower. And those standards are what is taught to the majority of students...to their detriment.

Well, I live with and love a special education teacher, so I see the other end of the pipe.

I agree that the average demanded of the middle 2/3 is not high enough to sustain our modern economy in the long term. As big a problem I see is the No Child Left Behind nonsense, which has reduced secondary education back to the 3Rs, and none too well at that. There is more to an education than that.

Notice I am not blaming the teachers...they are doing the best they can with the regulations they are presented with. Now granted, there are some lousy teachers out there...but those are rare. I believe most teachers really do want to teach and are doing the best they can with what they have.

FYI, I am also a Paramedic Instructor, and from this perspective I see a big difference...in the students. The people I teach are all 18+, paying for the course themselves, and very much want to be there and learn. I do have to wonder sometimes that if the parents had more at stake in their kids education (that is it actually cost them something personally) they would take more interest in their child's education and push them to excel at it. I certainly see that in the adults that I teach...they are paying for the course and they expect to learn and succeed...and that means I owe them my best effort.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 59

RE: OT - Running Out of British Assets? Buy Some - 12/4/2010 5:32:05 PM

JWE

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
Completely off topic.
@JWE

In September, they announced in the staff conference that they needed someone to teach programming to a bunch of final year students in the Sound and Music Technology program. I thought for a moment and stuck my hand up--I had done my PhD research in computational neuroacoustics, and I had had a bunch of years working in radar and sonar systems. At that point, I was wondering why they had never asked me to teach these students--I suppose it's because we're a UK computing department, and the department management team had never imagined that UK computing lecturers might know something other than computing.

So I met the students for the first week and I discovered the students were totally hacked-off by the uni and had no desire whatsoever to take yet another programming course. So I decided to teach them acoustics--something the program had never bothered to cover--I suppose it's because we're a UK computing department and that would be slightly outside our speciality. So they've had an enjoyable semester with me introducing them to the wonders of acoustics. There has been a little math and a little computing, but mostly we've done science. Now the students want me to keep going...

Hi Harry. Good on you. Keep it up. Youngsters with that inclination NEED to be encouraged. Took the usual acoustics courses at the Tute. Really liked the math at the interface thingy.

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Post #: 60