RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/6/2010 2:32:35 PM

tevans6220

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rahamy

For the last dozen years John had his personal site up (where the original 32-bit updates for the BG series could be downloaded) and his personal email was on that. Its not on the new one & E hit the nail on the head - time. Its not that he won't talk to customers, its that he is strapped for time - with 10+ series to maintain commercially and Government work, you must delegate certain things.

Sorry Rahamy but that's not an excuse. Anybody in business will tell you that have to talk to your customers and you make the time. You and Glenn do an excellent job but John needs to communicate with us also. Self publishing is a new business venture. You're saying that John Tiller is so strapped for time that he can't talk to customers on a forum. I don't accept that. He found the time to open a new website/business but can't find the time to personally promote it. Maybe I could excuse it in the past as his titles were published by other companies (Talonsoft, HPS) but now he's self-publishing. The man needs to talk to us directly if for no other reason than to promote his new business venture. Before I give him my money I want to hear from him about the DRM situation and his plans for the future. No offense but you and Glenn could tell us anything that could later be denied or passed off as a misrepresentation. Bottom line is that a new business requires time talking with customers. If Tiller can't make that time then he's not going to get my business.

(in reply to rahamy)

Post #: 91

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/6/2010 2:41:49 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
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Maybe we are just spoiled by Matrix/Slitherine requiring all their devs to show up and post. And guys like Erik and Iain and Chris from NWS checking other forums and posting there too.

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Post #: 92

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/6/2010 3:30:41 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
Maybe we are just spoiled by Matrix/Slitherine requiring all their devs to show up and post. And guys like Erik and Iain and Chris from NWS checking other forums and posting there too.

Wargaming is a funny business - normally you'd expect the smaller companies to be more user-friendly than the 800 Lb gorilla one, but here it's almost the reverse.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 93

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/6/2010 4:49:24 PM

jazman

Posts: 369
Joined: 1/20/2007
From: Crush Depth
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

quote:

ORIGINAL: rahamy

For the last dozen years John had his personal site up (where the original 32-bit updates for the BG series could be downloaded) and his personal email was on that. Its not on the new one & E hit the nail on the head - time. Its not that he won't talk to customers, its that he is strapped for time - with 10+ series to maintain commercially and Government work, you must delegate certain things.

Sorry Rahamy but that's not an excuse. Anybody in business will tell you that have to talk to your customers and you make the time. You and Glenn do an excellent job but John needs to communicate with us also. Self publishing is a new business venture. You're saying that John Tiller is so strapped for time that he can't talk to customers on a forum. I don't accept that. He found the time to open a new website/business but can't find the time to personally promote it. Maybe I could excuse it in the past as his titles were published by other companies (Talonsoft, HPS) but now he's self-publishing. The man needs to talk to us directly if for no other reason than to promote his new business venture. Before I give him my money I want to hear from him about the DRM situation and his plans for the future. No offense but you and Glenn could tell us anything that could later be denied or passed off as a misrepresentation. Bottom line is that a new business requires time talking with customers. If Tiller can't make that time then he's not going to get my business.

I've always wondered about it, it's peculiar given the Internet has been around a while, but it never factored in to my buying decisions. Since it's always been that way, to bring it up now as some kind of big deal seems like a red herring to me.

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Post #: 94

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/6/2010 5:55:24 PM

SlickWilhelm

Posts: 1854
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Rochester, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rahamy

with 10+ series to maintain commercially and Government work, you must delegate certain things.

He's got government work? What does he need our money for, then?

(in reply to rahamy)

Post #: 95

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/6/2010 6:32:47 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
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From: Arizona West Coast
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Stimulate the economy?

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Post #: 96

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 1:36:28 AM

hgilmer3

Posts: 530
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As others have pointed out before. Online activation means that you have to assume the company will always be in business because if it is not in business anymore, you don't play the game.

For some that is acceptable. For others it is not. It seems the vast majority of your lawful customers do not like this DRM thing. Just my thoughts. I have looked many times at Mr. Tiller's wargames and have been intrigued to no end. The problem with me is I'm addicted to digital download. So, I've never made the jump to ordering for physical delivery. I've only done that one time for War in the Pacific.

I flat refuse to buy anything that burdens me with the knowledge that a company going out of business loses me that game. And with the economy the way it is, that is something that we live with - even the strongest of companies have found themselves on shaky footing.

This is why Matrix has such loyal customers. I know that 20 years from now I'll be able to fire up War in the Pacific. And when I have bought my 20th computer and it runs on 1.2 quadrillion megahertz, I'll be able to play War in the Pacific still, as long as the operating system is still compatible. But, if it isn't, I can still get out my old copy of Win 7, install it on an old computer and then play War in the Pacific, even if Matrix has finally went out of business.

Sorry for the long post.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 97

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 1:43:41 AM

hgilmer3

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I just wanted to add, I have steam, which I don't really like so much and very rarely even play the 2-3 games I have on it.

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Post #: 98

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 2:55:53 AM

papajack

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/11/2010
Status: offline

Unfortunately the people behind JTS are short sighted , did not realize the amount of sales they are losing due to this DRM

There are huge customer base in Matrixgames / Slitherine that did not buy HPS titles before due to lack of digital download

Now JTS has the ability tap in this fat market but unfortunately narrow minded people are running the business...

HPS should take advantage of this and release all the current products in digital download

< Message edited by papajack -- 12/7/2010 2:59:46 AM >

(in reply to hgilmer3)

Post #: 99

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 3:02:22 AM

htuna

Posts: 591
Joined: 1/19/2009
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline

HPS prices are too high.. I don't think they'll gain anything.. I have a choice between 50 at HPS or 30 at NWS.. gonna choose NWS all the time..

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Post #: 100

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 3:23:38 AM

papajack

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/11/2010
Status: offline

If they are smart , they can always release Digital Download at $29.90

Low profit but big volume of sales ...

and since they are releasing older titles , most of the profit has been made

Bundles release will be a good idea as well

Joint venture with Matrixgames will be the best :)� �

< Message edited by papajack -- 12/7/2010 3:25:41 AM >

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Post #: 101

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 4:35:42 AM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
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From: Arizona West Coast
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
Maybe we are just spoiled by Matrix/Slitherine requiring all their devs to show up and post. And guys like Erik and Iain and Chris from NWS checking other forums and posting there too.

Wargaming is a funny business - normally you'd expect the smaller companies to be more user-friendly than the 800 Lb gorilla one, but here it's almost the reverse.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

Matrix just posted their second live chat with a dev in about a week.

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Post #: 102

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 8:59:33 AM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline

John Tiller Software Website

There's been an open letter there from John to the public wishing HPS well for some days now

If you want John to be even more available to you, why not write and ask him?

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 103

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 9:14:33 AM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
Maybe we are just spoiled by Matrix/Slitherine requiring all their devs to show up and post. And guys like Erik and Iain and Chris from NWS checking other forums and posting there too.

Wargaming is a funny business - normally you'd expect the smaller companies to be more user-friendly than the 800 Lb gorilla one, but here it's almost the reverse.

Matrix just posted their second live chat with a dev in about a week.

Yeah, on top of that : they actually listened and also did a WitE chat in a time-slot more convenient for Europeans and it wasn't just the developer, the whole beta-bunny brigade was there to answer questions.

Maybe there's a good reason Matrix grew from a no-name startup publisher to the 800 Lb gorilla in under a decade ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 104

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 9:17:47 AM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

John Tiller Software Website

There's been an open letter there from John to the public wishing HPS well for some days now

If you want John to be even more available to you, why not write and ask him?

I'll be glad to.

Please point out *where* on that website I can find either his email address or a business address for a nice paper letter.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 105

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 11:06:09 AM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline

Sure - I'd try this. Best of luck. What a great day ahead. I'm really looking forward to War in the East

Attachment (1)

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 106

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 11:57:46 AM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Sure - I'd try this. Best of luck. What a great day ahead. I'm really looking forward to War in the East

I asked for his email address or his business address and I get a web form ???

You do know the difference I hope.

But we all know what my point was : here we have a developer who is clearly keeping his fans as far away as humanly possible, hosts no forum, doesn't even have a public email address and who clearly has no time or patience or inclination to talk to gamers, yet basically says : "DRM ? no worries - trust me with your $40"

On what planet does this work ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 107

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 12:41:30 PM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

I asked for his email address or his business address and I get a web form ???

You do know the difference I hope.

Have a nice day Eddy.

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 12/7/2010 12:45:09 PM >

(in reply to sterckxe)

Post #: 108

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 1:27:31 PM

sabre1

Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline

Eddy,

Check out Arcengames AI Wars forum. The developer is on there regularly answering questions. Best support I have ever seen for a new game company.

Of course the reason? He doesn't work for the government.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 109

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 1:45:59 PM

LarryP

Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1

Eddy,

Check out Arcengames AI Wars forum. The developer is on there regularly answering questions. Best support I have ever seen for a new game company.

Of course the reason? He doesn't work for the government.

That's Chris Park. I've dealt with him personally and he is one of a kind. Excellent guy. He stands behind his games, and builds them right too. His lack of DRM has gained him a following like Matrix. Just a serial number and you are on your own. The way it should be.

(in reply to sabre1)

Post #: 110

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 1:53:16 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

I asked for his email address or his business address and I get a web form ???

You do know the difference I hope.

Have a nice day Eddy.

I sure will ! and remember : when that activation server goes down and your game becomes unplayable you can always send a mail to complain about it to me, because unlike some developer I should trust with my money, I'm always available for my "fans"

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 111

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 2:14:38 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1
Check out Arcengames AI Wars forum.

I have. Interested, but not biting yet.

This whole thing was just a bit of sillyness on my part in order to get the point across to some
people that they're standing on DRM quicksand yet proclaim in here it's terra firma one can trust.

I like business transactions that are not based on trust. I give you my $50, you give me a game I can install and re-install as much as I like.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to sabre1)

Post #: 112

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 2:50:04 PM

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

This whole thing was just a bit of sillyness on my part in order to get the point across to some
people that they're standing on DRM quicksand yet proclaim in here it's terra firma one can trust.

DRM is inherently based on mistrust. But what a large part of the thread concerns is the ability to talk to him directly and I wouldn't boycott Tiller just because I can't speak to him directly. Or from some strange idea that he lost his ability to program because he's working under a different banner (AGAIN!) and must prove himself by hanging out in forums.

But I am boycotting Tiller because of this kind of DRM. I will not knowingly* have my future retro-gaming abilities impinged upon by a need for the internet and/or a need for a company to continue to exist for decades.

* I did get caught once by pre-ordering CMSF before there was any mention of theirs.

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Post #: 113

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 3:07:17 PM

sterckxe

Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: E
DRM is inherently based on mistrust.

Correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: E
But what a large part of the thread concerns is the ability to talk to him directly and I wouldn't boycott Tiller just because I can't speak to him directly.

When a developer clearly indicates he doesn't trust his customers and insists on keeping the keys to the gaming kingdom under his control, it becomes important for the customers to find out if the developer himself can be trusted. That's where things like accessibility to him, or his presence in forums becomes an issue.

I don't think it's a coincidence that there's a high correlation between companies with reps that are easily accessible and have a relaxed copy protection attitude. Trust works both ways you know.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to E)

Post #: 114

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 3:39:46 PM

Posts: 1247
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

When a developer clearly indicates he doesn't trust his customers and insists on keeping the keys to the gaming kingdom under his control, it becomes important for the customers to find out if the developer himself can be trusted.

Except in this case, this developer has proven himself trustworthy by continuously updating games he didn't have to, for the past decade. Yes, he did cut the strings on earlier works that happen to appears here at Matrix. But that is still quite a track record of trust-ability. What I distrust is Murphy's Law, much more than Tiller "holding the keys." It's not as if Tiller is some young upstart who maybe did a single game elsewhere. Besides, he's never held "the keys" ...in reality, it's been the cookie cutter! *grin*

What I'd really like to know is why did he feel the need to go to such a harsh DRM (and alienate customers such as myself, from a purchase). And sheerly out of curiosity... was it really the cause of his departure from HPS, as has been conjectured?

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Twitter is for... (wait for it!) ...Twits!

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Post #: 115

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 4:05:01 PM

BAL

Posts: 222
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From: West of the Missouri
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Nothing like a "bash a competitor" thread to bring out the usual group of matrix bootlickers.

Very classy

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Post #: 116

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 4:20:36 PM

junk2drive

Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
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You might be correct if there wasn't a valid point to the bashing.

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Post #: 117

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 4:41:42 PM

tevans6220

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

John Tiller Software Website

There's been an open letter there from John to the public wishing HPS well for some days now

If you want John to be even more available to you, why not write and ask him?

I can tell you why I don't. First of all I don't know how to get in touch with him. But most importantly it's because he needs my business. I don't need him. This website self-publish thing is a new business venture for him and he should personally be promoting it. Not by a letter on a website or by private email but by personally interacting with customers and potential customers on the various forums that act as support forums for his products. If he can't be bothered to do that then he doesn't deserve my business.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 118

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 4:48:35 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Several pages here, even more at Wargamer, it's being discussed at ACG and god only knows how many other wargamer haunts.

The consensus is almost 100% negative and I don't think we can call it 'bashing' at this point. John has made the WRONG choice.

Matrix Games has shown what is possible, and if John wishes to disagree, well that's the thrill of a free country eh.

I'm an impulse buyer, I wonder how many of the rest of you guys have made impulse digital downloads you might not have made, if the game wasn't so easy to get. But additionally, how many will be buying from Matrix Games Gary's War in the East on impulse today (assuming it does arrive today).
And how much of that is because there are no draw backs to the purchase. Installer and serial and no strings attached.
It's a form of DRM yes, but it's one where no one buying really needs to even care about. The only people at risk, are thieves getting locked out of updates and patches that kill off illegal serials. And let's face it, a game as comprehensive as a wargame, you NEED those patches tweaks updates and alterations. Most of the patches I get for my Matrix Games titles, often are more about tweaks to make the game more credible than to make them free of bugs.
No one wants to invest a month playing a serious wargame, just to see an unforseen technical gaffe render the game 'silly and unrealistic'. Sure we want those updates.

But I regularly reinstall my OS just as a weird form of computer housecleaning.
Limited installs, well that renders a product defacto broken in my world when I think of it. I have no use for games that arrive broken I suppose.

John was nice to go to digital download, but then he went and ruined his product.
If the outcry is any indication, her first digital download, might be his last. He should maybe stick to his day job full time. No one seems interested in him if this is the route he will be maintaining. He's standing a real chance of becoming a name from the past, that will end up IN the past.

Been with Matrix Games almost from when they showed up on the internet. Seen them go from basically just a free download of Steel Panthers to today having more wargames under their banner than you can shake a stick at.
I think over all, if David Heath wishes to say his way is right and Johns way is wrong, well David has the proof of the pudding in his defense John.
Their list of games is all the proof David needs.

And that is not being a fan boy, merely me pointing out what will be hard to refute.

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Post #: 119

RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/7/2010 5:02:52 PM

simovitch

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I've contacted Mr. Tiller in the past on various subjects and he usually responds right away. Rich Hamilton is deeply involved with Tiller/HPS development and is also very active in the Wargamer and other Forums and is also very responsive to email support questions.

I'm sure they have their reasons for going this route, and it's probably related to the ease at which some of the HPS games can be "loaned" to freinds by simply zipping up the files and emailing them. I don't think you can't do that with Matrix Games unless you provide both the installer and the CD Key, which feels a lot more like balatant piracy than the former method I suppose.

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Post #: 120