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RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 8:24:49 AM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If it was not encircled for a full turn and isolated, then that is by design.

Had this discussion on another tread and you can justify this on the basis that, during the first turn the pocket is being closed it could be loose and escape possible, by the second turn the pocket should be tighter and escape less likely.

However, should all first turn attacked units be routed out of the pocket, surely at least some of the routed units would stay in the encirclement (how do disorganised units always know which is the safe way to jump, when even their high command didn't know where safe areas might be). The odds would be based on how much of the encirclement is achieved with ZOCs and how much is fully enclosed by enemy units themselves.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 61

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 8:59:59 AM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp
It is hard to write this as I don't want to bash the game. Quite the contrary. I still think it is an outstanding and brilliant game that is fully worth the money asked for.
I just don't want to play it anymore. Why am I posting? I hope that someone can tell me that I am mistaken with what I am thinking or telling me how I can improve so I can again enjoy the game.

The AI has been under discussion on other threads, too good, not good enough, etc,. The game has the breadth and enough adjustable features that I am sure that the modding experts are at work right now on scenarios and revised GC, which will provide adjusted play to suit almost anyone. It happened on a small scale for WIR and WiTE has a vastly bigger capability for modding.

Watch this space, in the mean time develop your skills on the smaller scenarios (adjust some settings yourself, see what happens), all good commanders hold wargames and training exercises before committing their forces to the main attack.

(in reply to fsp)

Post #: 62

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 9:15:38 AM

Vincenzo_Beretta

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan
You guys take the OP seriously?� Quit the game after 11 turns?� Give me a break!

11 turns in WitE are a lot: 3 months in Barbarossa (of course you have to be familiar with both the game and the Russian Front to know this, so it is understandable that many people in this thread consider 11 turns "too little").

The important point is: can the AI escape encirclements? If so, is it by design or a bug?

If the answer is "yes", and it happens by design, then it would be fair to know when it happens and what does it simulates: "melting units", "porous pockets" or a cheat (we can live with that, too).

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Post #: 63

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 9:23:18 AM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

The WitE is IGYG ("I Go - You Go") type of game where both sides play the same turn on same date!

Thus, what you see as, for example, German attacker as solid encirclement is not considered solid encirclement in game engine terms - this is because the other side has opportunity to do something about it - the only "true" encirclement is the encirclement that extends to two (2) or more turns!

Therefore if you really want to eliminate trapped enemy units in some pocked you should never encircle and attack in your single turn - you should encircle in your 1st turn and attack in your 2nd turn!

This is all explained in manual BTW...

Leo "Apollo11"

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 12/22/2010 9:24:10 AM >

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Post #: 64

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 9:36:42 AM

Helpless

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quote:

The important point is: can the AI escape encirclements? If so, is it by design or a bug?

If Ai is breaking unit movement/routing rules it's a bug

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WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 65

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 9:41:44 AM

Vincenzo_Beretta

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Hmmm... It's unclear to me. If you are referring to paragraph 6.3.4. "CONVERSION OF ISOLATED HEXES", it says that encircled hexes are converted into "enemy hexes" during the owner's turn (so, IIUC if an hex is encircled the owner still has his turn to reopen a path to it before it is "turned").

However, the problem I see here is more of AI controlled encircled *units* able to escape "fully closed pockets" - something I think I saw a couple of times too (in the "Road to Minsk" scenario, but that on the moment I dismissed.

It could be a case of "shattered units" - like those that "evaporate" in TOAW. But, if so, I missed the feedback.

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Post #: 66

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 9:44:00 AM

Helpless

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quote:

"fully closed pockets"

Depends what you mean by fully closed pocket. In WITE it is a pocket which was formed during the movement phase and passed the logistic phase. I.e. pockets formed this turn are not "fully closed".. they are in process of formation. It should be somewhere in manual.

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WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 67

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 9:46:49 AM

Vincenzo_Beretta

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Or maybe the two units that are "closing the pocket" are not big enough to creeate a ZOC of "convertible hexes" around them (rule 6.3.3.). But, if so, it is visible at a glance.

< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 12/22/2010 9:49:12 AM >

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Post #: 68

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 10:13:22 AM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan
You guys take the OP seriously?� Quit the game after 11 turns?� Give me a break!

11 turns in WitE are a lot: 3 months in Barbarossa (of course you have to be familiar with both the game and the Russian Front to know this, so it is understandable that many people in this thread consider 11 turns "too little").

The important point is: can the AI escape encirclements? If so, is it by design or a bug?

If the answer is "yes", and it happens by design, then it would be fair to know when it happens and what does it simulates: "melting units", "porous pockets" or a cheat (we can live with that, too).

That's a fair point. 11 turns for the Germans is a fair whack.

However, to give up simply because you think you can't win is not what gaming is about...or this game. The challenge, after deciding (knowing?) you can't get Moscow or Leningrad is to stall the Soviet push, is it not? The game doesn't end for the Axis if they can't get their objectives - Stalling the Russian advance in itself could be a victory - preventing the Russians from obtaining their objectives...no?

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(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 69

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 10:38:51 AM

sitito

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quote:

I don't want to play anymore

Ok GL

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 70

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 11:10:50 AM

fsp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sitito

quote:

I don't want to play anymore

Ok GL

Now aren't you a little ray of sunshine.

What an avalanche this post has caused.

Thanks for all the answers, some of them did seem a bit harsh and elitist, and only one was just plain stupid (see above). But on the other hand I can understand that my OP might have struck some as a bit whiny. It was not supposed to be. Here are some comments from me.

It's not about my ego. Some of the best games I have ever had where those where I have lost, no matter in which game that has been. I can still enjoy this game if I know I will not win. Try to make the best of it. Stay as deep in Russia as long as possible. But as I know it can be won (or can it?) I would like to do that as well :-)

I played some of the "Road to" scenarios, they are good practice, but they don't prepare you for the difficulty of pocketing the large amount of Russians that shows up in the GC.

For me, the big problem is, that I don't really know how to improve. I use infantry to open up the front, follow up with tanks, use hasty attack most of the time and did ok on the Tutorial (Major Victory) and Road to Minsk (1st try draw, second try minor victory). I read about 60 % of the manual, especially the sections on supply etc. but don't fully grasp every concept (support units and how to distribute them for instance). I read the forum A LOT.

Supply and command structure have not been a problem so far in the game except maybe for a short time in turn 4 or 5 where the Panzers outraced the railheads. Now I don't say that this means I should win the GC, but I want to know what I can do to win it.

I will try the Soviets later. But it seems so much easier to play them. Given that they have it much easier in general and that I also have the luxury to play on the defense for at least 50 % of the game, I felt more compelled to try out the Germans. Every AI I have ever seen has had it much more difficult to attack than to defend. I am pretty confident that I could muster a Soviet win on normal (I might be wrong though).
Also, as some correctly identified, I really don't like that the "laws of physics" don't seem to apply to the AI regarding e.g. ZOC. That makes it very hard to calculate what's happening.

quote:

Funniest post ever...11 turns in to a 240+ turn game and I'm giving up 'cos I can't win? Sorry - but how does one actually know that 11 turns in to 240 turns? By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

It's not that I mind losing that much. But I played almost non-stop a weekend ago, and I don't think it is premature to say that I will lose. I have fallen short of all objectives and the longer the game goes, the Soviets will get only stronger while I will only get weaker, or am I missing something here? Also, I am NOT saying it is impossible to win. I am sure there are much better players around who manage to do so. I would only like to know what I can do better and am having a hard time finding out. It's not my ego. To be honest, I think the thing that put me off most was all of those 50+ units escaping through a two hex hole. That was a real downer.

quote:

Buck up soldier!! I couldn't win on WiR the first few times, either. What would Rommel say? WHAT WOULD PATTON SAY?

I got my ass kicked in WIR the first few times too. But I felt I knew what I had done wrong and later easily won. Maybe I am throwing in the towel too fast. Again, it is just hard to know how to improve right now, I just have the feeling I don't have enough troops to win it (again, this seems remarkably historical though).

quote:

In response to the OP... If I had plopped down $80 for a monster game on the East Front and 3 days later figured out how to win with only 11 turns under my belt towards a 225 turn scenario, I would be screaming for my money back for being sold a game with such a cheesy AI.

That post had me chuckling a bit. There is lots of truth in it though.

quote:

You guys take the OP seriously? Quit the game after 11 turns? Give me a break!

I was not really saying that I was quitting the game for good. The headline was supposed to be a bit of an exaggeration. I basically wanted to know what I could do to improve.

quote:

Because if you've read the manual and played the Road To scenarios, then I'm thinking he's got a good grasp of the rules. And I personally think if you have a good grasp of the rules - then you are NOT going to say, in your 11th turn of 240, that there is no way for you to win...and if you are going to say that, then you either haven't got a good grasp of the rules, or you are so uber at the game that you figured that out after 11 turns.

As far as I see it, to win, you either have to severly damage the Soviet army in 1941 (I failed there) or take some vital ground in 1941 (failed there too). So I think it is safe to assume I will not win, or is it?

quote:

The important point is: can the AI escape encirclements? If so, is it by design or a bug?

That is something I'd like an answer to. Just to be very clear: I understand that a pocket is only safe after the other side has made its move. It is a sensible design choice. What I am talking about is 50 units escaping a giant pocket through a two hex bottle-neck, completely ignoring ZOC restrictions. The pocket was fully surrounded in my turn, having at least one German unit in every hex and just not being able to close the two hexes on the very top. So: A string of German units, but an opening of two hexes. But there is no way I as a human played could have rescued even half of those units with ZOC and Soviet movement allowances in the Soviet player turn.

And I know it is not going to be an easy answer. One answer of a play tester in this thread suggested that this still happens from time to time and is not supposed to. I that was the case, I think we have the first major bug here. No biggie, as I am very confident it will be fixed. If it is WAD, it is a tough choice to make. Change it, and it might become too easy and no one (no, not even me) would want that. Keep it, and it does feel very cheesy.

(in reply to sitito)

Post #: 71

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 11:33:42 AM

karonagames

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@fsp: If you have the before and after saves for the "great escape", Joel would be interested in seeing them. If there is evidence that the AI is ignoring ZOC rules, then this is beyond the level of advantage that the AI is given, but without seeing the starter MPs and whether the AI could use it's bottomless pool of APs to motorise units to give them enough MPs to escape it is difficult to know if there is a problem.

I did call GAIA a cheating B!^@h once and got a lot of stick from the other testers!

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Post #: 72

Hallelujah! - 12/22/2010 11:34:43 AM

Templer_12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

The WitE is IGYG ("I Go - You Go") type of game where both sides play the same turn on same date!

Thus, what you see as, for example, German attacker as solid encirclement is not considered solid encirclement in game engine terms - this is because the other side has opportunity to do something about it - the only "true" encirclement is the encirclement that extends to two (2) or more turns!

Therefore if you really want to eliminate trapped enemy units in some pocked you should never encircle and attack in your single turn - you should encircle in your 1st turn and attack in your 2nd turn!

This is all explained in manual BTW...

Leo "Apollo11"

Hallelujah!
Folks you got it now?

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Post #: 73

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 11:37:54 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Thus, what you see as, for example, German attacker as solid encirclement is not considered solid encirclement in game engine terms - this is because the other side has opportunity to do something about it - the only "true" encirclement is the encirclement that extends to two (2) or more turns!

I don't understand what you're saying--can the AI move through ZoCs easier than a human player? If so I think that is a bit too much of a "tweak for the AI, and I haven't seen that explained in the manual. I've seen lots of pockets empty out, but generally there has been one ZoC free hex, so fair enough. If the AI can run units through ZoCs though, I would like to know about it!

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 74

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 11:43:08 AM

Vincenzo_Beretta

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp
One answer of a play tester in this thread suggested that this still happens from time to time and is not supposed to. I that was the case, I think we have the first major bug here. No biggie, as I am very confident it will be fixed. If it is WAD, it is a tough choice to make. Change it, and it might become too easy and no one (no, not even me) would want that. Keep it, and it does feel very cheesy.

IMHO, the computer should play by the same rules. For those looking for a bigger challenge there is always the difficult level and the tweaking of game values so to make one side advantaged. So, if it is a bug, it should be fixed.

However, let's say that it's WAD. Fine, but it would be better, then, to have a formal description of how encirclements work for the AI. In a game so big, and where so much time is put into planning, seeing a plan come apart due not to human error but to unclear issues can be very frustrating.

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Post #: 75

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:05:00 PM

fsp

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That was one of my main points... Will look for those saves now, should be there as I use auto-save.

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Post #: 76

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:23:59 PM

fsp

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I think I managed to find the save I need. I overwrote one save in the process though but I think I have the one I need (the one at the start of the Soviet turn). It appears I stand corrected on most of it. I loaded it as a scenario and played the Soviet and could move most of the units out of the pocket. However, I could not move ALL of the units out as happened in my game, but right now I think that is maybe due to me missing a point.

I would still like one of the experts to give this a look. I don't mind being publicly told afterwards that I suck :-) I criticised the game here, so it is ok to set things right if it was my bad. Also, if someone can tell me in here as well, WHY I suck so much, it might help others that are struggling too.

Where do I need to send the game to? It doesn't look like it can be uploaded here?

(in reply to fsp)

Post #: 77

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:33:20 PM

MengJiao

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp

It is hard to write this as I don't want to bash the game. Quite the contrary. I still think it is an outstanding and brilliant game that is fully worth the money asked for.
I just don't want to play it anymore. Why am I posting? I hope that someone can tell me that I am mistaken with what I am thinking or telling me how I can improve so I can again enjoy the game.

Here is my issue. I have played 11 turns in the German Grand campaign now on normal and I don't think I will be able to ever take Moscow or win this game. Again, I have only played eleven turns and surely am missing something here? Any ideas, suggestions or thoughts that might help me here?

I think its more fun to play the Russians. If you survive the first 11 turns you feel like you're winning.

(in reply to fsp)

Post #: 78

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:39:24 PM

karonagames

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PM sent

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Post #: 79

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:43:57 PM

fsp

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FYI, here is a screenshot I made of the pocket, seen without FOW. Again, looks like I stand corrected on most units, still not sure how ALL of them got out of there.

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Post #: 80

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:44:27 PM

tevans6220

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios.

Actually the rules (victory conditions) are different between GC and limited scenarios. This influences strategy and gameplay. "Road to" scenarios are a race against time. If you do this in GC, you can gain much ground before the first Mud and Winter but does it guarantee a win? Maybe playing too much "Road to" scenarios will influence reckless maneuvers in GC, leaving the Axis exhausted and with unsercure supply lines as you lack long term planning.

Also even if you fail Operation Barbarossa, if you do a good defense and prevent Germany from capitulating, it is a Draw for the Grand Campaign. All is not lost because you're not doing well in the 11th turn as the Axis.

Let's not play word games. The rules are the same. The victory conditions are different. There isn't one set of rules for the GC and another set for the other scenarios. Since when is everyone required to play scenarios in a certain order? The OP felt comfortable enough to play the GC. Who are we to question him?

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Post #: 81

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:49:29 PM

hgilmer3

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quote:

I don't mind being publicly told afterwards that I suck :-)

If you suck, then a lot of us suck, because even though we might not be saying it, we are in exactly the same boat as you when it comes to losing so far.

I think that winning a minor victory on Minsk is not enough. You have to play it and play it and play it like I did. And lose a lot! Yes, that's the ticket. Lose a lot in Road to Minsk like I did.

Seriously, though, IN my opinion, you have to be able to beat RTM as a major victory because it is basically the 3 turns to start the GC in the middle. Minor victory translated to GC means you are already behind in the 1st 3 turns.

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Post #: 82

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:54:48 PM

Abalieno

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quote:

That is something I'd like an answer to. Just to be very clear: I understand that a pocket is only safe after the other side has made its move. It is a sensible design choice. What I am talking about is 50 units escaping a giant pocket through a two hex bottle-neck, completely ignoring ZOC restrictions. The pocket was fully surrounded in my turn, having at least one German unit in every hex and just not being able to close the two hexes on the very top. So: A string of German units, but an opening of two hexes. But there is no way I as a human played could have rescued even half of those units with ZOC and Soviet movement allowances in the Soviet player turn.

Yes, but 95% of people who will write in this thread will continue to say you suck at playing the game and ignore the issue that was presented.

I also would like to know a proper answer to a proper question instead of infinite circling around it.

If this happen and it is a bug, it should be pointed out very clearly instead of ignored.

(in reply to fsp)

Post #: 83

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:56:27 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp

Here is a screenshot I made of the pocket, seen without FOW.

OK...

Can you post the savegame file here?

Also what exactly happened next (this is screenshoot of Turn #2)?

Did the Soviets escape during their turn via those 2 HEXes to the north?

Or did you attack the units in pocket you made on same turn you made the pocket and attacked Soviets excaped?

Loe "Apollo11"

_____________________________

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Post #: 84

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:57:39 PM

jomni

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fsp

FYI, here is a screenshot I made of the pocket, seen without FOW. Again, looks like I stand corrected on most units, still not sure how ALL of them got out of there.

FSP pls toggle enemy hex overlay {e}.

< Message edited by jomni -- 12/22/2010 12:59:34 PM >

(in reply to fsp)

Post #: 85

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 12:59:42 PM

tevans6220

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Elitist? You're joking right?. There is nothing elitist about my post. I am nowhere near understanding the game. Nor am I a fanboy (just in case you throw that one in the bag).

To go a different road to "My dad is bigger than your dad", my post was more helpful than yours. You have made two posts, one attacking most people who responded to his post and one directed at me.

Sure I made assumptions as did others. But anyone turning in the towel after 11 turns is having a laugh...seriously. And it smacks of having a bruised ego.

I tried to help by suggesting the manual and the Road To scenarios because there was very little information in his post. It was left to us to guess what the problems were. I didn't know he hadn't read the manual. I didn't know he hadn't played the Road To scenarios - I guessed.

There are testers in here that have been playing the game months, years for some, and I've read them post they're still learning new ways of doing things. I just guessed that after 11 turns, less than 5% of the game length, that he hadn't experimented.

If he has experimented, if he has read the manual and if he does have a solid grasp of the rules, then I'd like him to say so...then people who understand the game (much better than I do at the moment) can help him properly. As it is, I helped how I could.

No I'm not joking. Two of your posts came off as elitist and condescending. Quite frankly I saw nothing helpful in your posts thus my response to you. Honestly I haven't really tried to be helpful because I don't have enough of a grasp on the game to offer advice. My point was and still is that people assumed too much (not reading the manual, playing "Road to" scenarios) and that some people (such as yourself) come off as elitist experts.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 86

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 1:02:34 PM

JudgeDredd

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Doesn't each of those units only have to move one space into the pocket to remove ZOC penalties? And if so, then there are only two hexes where ZoC becomes a problem...no? An yes - ontrol overlay will help

Impressive pocket mind you...I bet you wished you had closed it

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Post #: 87

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 1:03:10 PM

tevans6220

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FSP:

If you still have that save, could you please post it? I'd like to try to pick up where you left off and see if I could pull out a win. Probably won't but it will be a good learning experience.

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Post #: 88

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 1:08:42 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

For chrissake, if that pocket does count as "closed", what does? Unless they attacked and threw back at least one of those German units on each side of the gap, how did ANY of the Soviet units move out (I understand that they could have routed out...).

TMR

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 89

RE: I don't want to play anymore - 12/22/2010 1:11:06 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Elitist? You're joking right?. There is nothing elitist about my post. I am nowhere near understanding the game. Nor am I a fanboy (just in case you throw that one in the bag).

To go a different road to "My dad is bigger than your dad", my post was more helpful than yours. You have made two posts, one attacking most people who responded to his post and one directed at me.

Sure I made assumptions as did others. But anyone turning in the towel after 11 turns is having a laugh...seriously. And it smacks of having a bruised ego.

I tried to help by suggesting the manual and the Road To scenarios because there was very little information in his post. It was left to us to guess what the problems were. I didn't know he hadn't read the manual. I didn't know he hadn't played the Road To scenarios - I guessed.

There are testers in here that have been playing the game months, years for some, and I've read them post they're still learning new ways of doing things. I just guessed that after 11 turns, less than 5% of the game length, that he hadn't experimented.

If he has experimented, if he has read the manual and if he does have a solid grasp of the rules, then I'd like him to say so...then people who understand the game (much better than I do at the moment) can help him properly. As it is, I helped how I could.

No I'm not joking. Two of your posts came off as elitist and condescending. Quite frankly I saw nothing helpful in your posts thus my response to you. Honestly I haven't really tried to be helpful because I don't have enough of a grasp on the game to offer advice. My point was and still is that people assumed too much (not reading the manual, playing "Road to" scenarios) and that some people (such as yourself) come off as elitist experts.