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German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 6:49:35 AM   
jay102

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline 		Turn 4 in game, I decided let the panzer corps to rest and refit. I noticed some of them only has about 50%-70% TOE strength in medium tanks category.

I checked the pool which is empty of medium tanks, with a production of 14 panzer IIIj/L42 per turn(the only type in production). With this number it takes a long time to fill the requirements.

Is this WAD? Should I use those half strength panzer divisions to continue push forward?
Post #: 1
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 9:31:07 AM   
Smirfy

 

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The campaign was going to be over in six weeks ;)

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RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 9:34:48 AM   
Pawsy

 

Posts: 339
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		Push forward now <signs order for jay102 dismissal>

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Post #: 3
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 9:34:50 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		I'm trying to find the specific reference in the developers forum, but I think it was Trey (el Hefe) who had a source that said 79 new tanks made their way to front line units in the first 6 months of Barbarossa.

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RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 9:43:12 AM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Off the top of my head, the Germans were celebrating the production of 100 tanks a month in early '42 while the Russians were already producing 10 times as much. So great was the discrepancy. Also keep in mind that from these 100 new formations had to be raised and reinforcements sent to Rommel...

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Post #: 5
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 10:11:55 AM   
pensfanvw


Posts: 82
Joined: 1/3/2009
From: Owosso, MI.
Status: offline 		Don't mean to hijack this thread, but I've seen the term WAD used in this and other posts. What is WAD?

Al

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Post #: 6
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 10:13:52 AM   
XAAL.


Posts: 25
Joined: 4/15/2002
From: Earth.
Status: offline 		WAD = Work As Designed.

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Post #: 7
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 10:16:22 AM   
pensfanvw


Posts: 82
Joined: 1/3/2009
From: Owosso, MI.
Status: offline 		Ahh... Thanks XAAL.

Al

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RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 11:02:30 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		I'm playing the Soviets in my Grand Campaign and I can't seem to kill a lot of German tanks.
Maybe OP is too aggressive?

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Post #: 9
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 11:15:05 AM   
Grouchy


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/26/2001
From: Nuenen, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Off the top of my head, the Germans were celebrating the production of 100 tanks a month in early '42 while the Russians were already producing 10 times as much. So great was the discrepancy. Also keep in mind that from these 100 new formations had to be raised and reinforcements sent to Rommel...


Well they produced somewhat more, take for instance the production numbers of Nov'41:
PzII: 40
Pz38: 50
PzIII: 206
PzIV: 52

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Post #: 10
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 11:26:00 AM   
Grouchy


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/26/2001
From: Nuenen, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

Turn 4 in game, I decided let the panzer corps to rest and refit. I noticed some of them only has about 50%-70% TOE strength in medium tanks category.

I checked the pool which is empty of medium tanks, with a production of 14 panzer IIIj/L42 per turn(the only type in production). With this number it takes a long time to fill the requirements.

Is this WAD? Should I use those half strength panzer divisions to continue push forward?


If you think that's bad, then you probally really looking out for the 1941 winter.
Here a report of the status of the panzers on the eastern front in feb 1942:
340 operational
1139 repairable
305 total losses
582 replacements


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Post #: 11
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 12:05:46 PM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouchy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Off the top of my head, the Germans were celebrating the production of 100 tanks a month in early '42 while the Russians were already producing 10 times as much. So great was the discrepancy. Also keep in mind that from these 100 new formations had to be raised and reinforcements sent to Rommel...


Well they produced somewhat more, take for instance the production numbers of Nov'41:
PzII: 40
Pz38: 50
PzIII: 206
PzIV: 52


Should have qualified my statement - I was referring to Pz IVs. Pz III got reclassified as lights pretty early in the campaign

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Post #: 12
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 2:01:00 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

Turn 4 in game, I decided let the panzer corps to rest and refit. I noticed some of them only has about 50%-70% TOE strength in medium tanks category.

I checked the pool which is empty of medium tanks, with a production of 14 panzer IIIj/L42 per turn(the only type in production). With this number it takes a long time to fill the requirements.

Is this WAD? Should I use those half strength panzer divisions to continue push forward?


This seems to be WAD. AFV that are damaged due to movement seem to be handled identically to AFV's damaged from combat. So just by moving your PzDiv's you are steadily losing tanks. I'm in turn 16 now and had 60-70 AFV's destroyed last turn just because I moved half dozen Pz Div's close to their max MP's. This is with low supply and of rail MP's of about 30.


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Post #: 13
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 2:07:51 PM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		Production does not mean that these units make it to the front. Many of these new tanks were being used to build new units in France and Germany and replacements of all types were very slow in getting to the East until the Spring of 42. The Germans had enough of a problem trying to get basic supplies, ammo, and fuel to the front lines with the swindling rolling stock and trucks and across primitive roads, much less brand new tanks.



Trey

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Post #: 14
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 2:14:43 PM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		As I understand it, the rebuilding plus the requirements of other fronts is accounted for by the production modifier being 85%(for 41).

So max total built that's possible should be:

capacity x number of turns in production (when factories are in supply) x modifier.


The waters are further muddied by the fact that repaired elements also seem to get count in the "built" column. At least that's the only reason I can come up with why elements are showing up as "built" even though they are not in production. So it doesn't seem to be really possible to count how many were actually built in the factory and how many were damaged elements that got repaired.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 12/31/2010 2:16:56 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 3:25:05 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		The German production numbers are fairly chaotic as the factories often counted rebuilds as new production.

Panzer IV production was very low for the first several years of the war because it was considered a "support tank" to the panzer III. Only upon meeting the T-34 and KV-1 did the Germans have a "oh s**t" moment and started looking at alternatives. Remember the Panzer IV started the campaign with the short 75.

After the winter during the spring mud, the Germans had about a panzer divisions worth of tanks (less than 200) available for employment on the entire Eastern Front. That they got as many tanks made available for operations by the time of the summer offensive is fairly remarkable. I believe they invaded with around 3300 tanks and started the summer offensive with about the same number (over 3000), but the big difference was there were far fewer panzer II's.

Hitler had a meeting with the AGC generals the first part of August in part to discuss plans of diverting PG 2 and 3. Both Guderian and Hoth reported their panzer strength at around 50% of ToE and the biggest issue was tank engines. Hitler mentioned that 400 engines would be sent to the front. Guderian objected since he could have used 400 engines alone. Hitler mentioned that engine production was needed for new tank production and new formations. There was a note about not raising new formations and just sending anything produced to the front as replacements as suggested by Halder. Hitler, ever interested in numbers, shot this down when it was probably the right thing to do.


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Post #: 16
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 3:25:30 PM   
dwesolick


Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Yep, and it doesn't seem to get much better as time goes on. I'm in April 42 and my pool of medium tanks is zero (or 1 or 2) in every category. Fortunately most of my pzdivs are in pretty good shape, though none at full TOE. However, on the bright side, I do have around 3 million (give or take) FW-190s!!

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Post #: 17
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 4:07:19 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline 		At this time, the "mittler" Panzer-Kompanien were only authorized 10 x Pz.IVs (KStN 1175 - 2 x Platoons of 4 Pz.IVs each + 2 x Pz.IVs and 5 x Pz.IIs in the HQ Platoon). That would be a total of 20 x Pz.IVs per 2-battalion Panzer-Regiment. This didn't change until early-1943, when all Pz.IIIs and Pz.IVs were redesignated as "mittler," and all Panzer Companies in the Panzer Divisions were reclassified as "mittler."

I don't think this is reflected in the Panzer Division ToEs in the game (ie we show too many Pz.IVs in the Panzer Division ToEs until January, 1943), so, if production is close to historical for 1941-early 1943, it's going to appear that there is a shortage of Pz.IVs, or the shortages will appear to be worse than they really were.

Brad

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Post #: 18
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 4:24:41 PM   
Grouchy


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/26/2001
From: Nuenen, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
Status: offline 		Think you made a mistake, a 'mittlere panzerkompanie'  K.St.N 1175 v. 1.11.1941 is authorized to have 14 PzKpfwIV's:
Kp. Tr. 2x PzKpfwIV
le. Zug 4x PzKpfwII
1. Zug 4x PzKpfwIV
2. Zug 4x PzKpfwIV
3. Zug 4x PzKpfwIV

And you can find another one back in K.St. N. 1178 v. 1.2.1941 (staffel einer panzer-abteilung).

Not all units did recieve the necessary panzers (or were authorized by orders) to establish that 3.zug.

< Message edited by Grouchy -- 12/31/2010 5:39:33 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 5:44:48 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouchy

Think you made a mistake, a 'mittlere panzerkompanie'  K.St.N 1175 v. 1.11.1941 is authorized to have 14 PzKpfwIV's:
Kp. Tr. 2x PzKpfwIV
le. Zug 4x PzKpfwII
1. Zug 4x PzKpfwIV
2. Zug 4x PzKpfwIV
3. Zug 4x PzKpfwIV

And you can find another one back in K.St. N. 1178 v. 1.2.1941 (staffel einer panzer-abteilung).

Not all units did recieve the necessary panzers (or were authorized by orders) to establish that 3.zug.


No mistake - there's a notation for KStN 1175, that there will be no third platoon without special authorization. Field returns verify this. You're also using a KStN dated later than the relevent one.

Brad

< Message edited by Brad Hunter -- 12/31/2010 5:46:04 PM >

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Post #: 20
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 6:57:02 PM   
sross

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 6/16/2009
Status: offline 		On a side note, I was looking in the production area for the Axis and did not see PzIVG or H listed. Maybe I missed them?

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Post #: 21
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 7:07:33 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		They're part of the Panzer IV upgrade tree, equipment that's part of an upgrade tree isn't listed, only the equipment in that tree that's currently being produced.

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Post #: 22
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 7:56:58 PM   
sross

 

Posts: 19
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Status: offline 		Figured it was something like that. Thanks.

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Post #: 23
RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 7:58:41 PM   
Grouchy


Posts: 1117
Joined: 9/26/2001
From: Nuenen, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

No mistake - there's a notation for KStN 1175, that there will be no third platoon without special authorization. Field returns verify this. You're also using a KStN dated later than the relevent one.

Brad


Ahaa checked it, the KStN 1175 (Sd) v 1.2.1941 which authorized theoretically for 14 PzKpfwIV's. Although no unit was authorized to form the 3.Zug or issued the 4 PzKpfwIV's needed for it in 1941.


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RE: German medium tank shortage - 12/31/2010 8:48:08 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grouchy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

No mistake - there's a notation for KStN 1175, that there will be no third platoon without special authorization. Field returns verify this. You're also using a KStN dated later than the relevent one.

Brad


Ahaa checked it, the KStN 1175 (Sd) v 1.2.1941 which authorized theoretically for 14 PzKpfwIV's. Although no unit was authorized to form the 3.Zug or issued the 4 PzKpfwIV's needed for it in 1941.



Exactly! the KStN dated 02/01/41 is the one that was in effect on 06/22/41.

Brad

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