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RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 12:09:56 PM

Anthropoid

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Can I get fries with that?

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Post #: 211

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 12:10:40 PM

diablo1

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quote:

I doubt there are forums for Random House with people saying the prices are too high

But, there are other complaints in that part of the industry about price.

http://www.teleread.com/chris-meadows/random-house-caves-on-kindle-price-policy/

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Post #: 212

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 12:50:45 PM

NefariousKoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

I doubt there are forums for Random House with people saying the prices are too high

But, there are other complaints in that part of the industry about price.
http://www.teleread.com/chris-meadows/random-house-caves-on-kindle-price-policy/

Boom. Head shot?

Now that it's been mentioned, yes, many books have skyrocketed in price over the past decade or two. Result of saving the trees?

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Post #: 213

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 3:15:34 PM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2264
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

I doubt there are forums for Random House with people saying the prices are too high

But, there are other complaints in that part of the industry about price.
http://www.teleread.com/chris-meadows/random-house-caves-on-kindle-price-policy/

Boom. Head shot?

Now that it's been mentioned, yes, many books have skyrocketed in price over the past decade or two. Result of saving the trees?

Not realley a head shot,yes they are discussing price,if you read the link Diablo/Ravinhood/MajFrankBurns refers to its about Kindle e-books selling for less than physical copies.I guess the equivlant here would be discussing physical to digital download prices comparisons,which we are not discussing,so the thread/link is irrelevent to this discussion.

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Post #: 214

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 3:36:41 PM

SuluSea

Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerX3X

This article tells you all you need to know.

quote:

GO: Are you concerned the higher pricing may put off both your loyal fans as well as potential newcomers to the series?

ER: We're certainly aware of that possibility and we're watching the feedback and the sales closely. This is clearly not an introductory price, it's aimed at fairly hard core wargamers who are already familiar with the series.

While I am glad that Matrix dropped the price from the initial offering, I am still somewhat distressed by a high asking price (even though I got it) and their obvious desire to sell to no one other than the "hard core wargamers".

What company intentionally alienates potential customers? What are you people, a cult?

As you can see by post 41 I have respect for what Matrix does but I have to say this comment is concerning. The "hardcore gamers familiar with the series" are the very ones who should be getting the financial break instead of paying the higher cost. They're the folks that helped root out bugs, release mods and additional art to help pave the way for a larger community.

Obviously not speaking for myself a newcomer to the series but past owners of the product should have gotten a discount like the WITP-AE scenario.

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Post #: 215

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 4:03:01 PM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
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From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

I doubt there are forums for Random House with people saying the prices are too high

But, there are other complaints in that part of the industry about price.
http://www.teleread.com/chris-meadows/random-house-caves-on-kindle-price-policy/

For some reason that article reminded me of Archie Bunker and math.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da0eaiZ0CKw

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Post #: 216

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 4:26:21 PM

bairdlander2

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grtLSCyNrdo

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Post #: 217

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 5:24:04 PM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Close Combat successor could either be a mainstream AAA game with some cinematic qualities sold to mass market or a game aimed mostly at CC grogs.

And again, at a $150 price tag it wouldn't be a mainstream AAA title because people would laugh at a game priced at triple what other mainstream titles are. It would flop.

AAA Close Combat could be sold for much lower price because it would appeal to audience of Private Ryan and Company of Heroes thanks to being a more cinematic experience - it would have to get the AAA budget first. Close Combat for the old guard which would be much more like the old games except without their flaws and with many new features - mainly many new mechanics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames.

I thought about this while playing Storm over the Pacific last night. Exactly which wargame is it that not anyone can play? WitP? Anyone can learn to play that. All you have to do is go through trial and error to learn the game mechanics. There's no special intelligence involved.

Maybe you mean boardgames? I played Starfleet Battles for over 10 years. The rules alone are three books and that's the core game. And I'm no rocket scientist. I'm just an average Joe.

Learning how to play a wargame, computer or board, doesn't require some special IQ. Just a desire to learn. My wife speaks three languages fluently and runs a catering service as a side job. But I cannot get her near a wargame at gunpoint. She has no desire for it.

Anyone can play a wargame.

Intellectual doesn't mean the same as requiring special intelligence. Just an entertainment that involves thinking and learning stuff about history and tactics and strategy instead of for example training better reflexes.
As for the elite nature of the hobby - it certainly requires bigger involvement, greater patience, ability to spend time on learning stuff, etc. which is a big entry barrier for an entertainment.

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Post #: 218

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 5:43:21 PM

bairdlander2

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But the context of your post was this meaning."e�lite or �lite (-lt, -lt)
n. pl. elite or e�lites
1.
a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: "In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them" (Times Literary Supplement).
b. The best or most skilled members of a group: the football team's elite."
Why not just admit you were being condesending and arrogant and apologize?

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Post #: 219

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 6:09:25 PM

wgs_explorer

Posts: 81
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From: Miami, Florida
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Do I have to return my WitP-AE and BftB games?

I don't make 100K/year. (I may even have to return WitP too!)

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Post #: 220

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 6:28:55 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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THAT! was friggin' classic!

"I had thuwtay fif dallahs in my haynd, and now I got nothin!"

Archer Bunker was one of the best characters ever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

I doubt there are forums for Random House with people saying the prices are too high

But, there are other complaints in that part of the industry about price.
http://www.teleread.com/chris-meadows/random-house-caves-on-kindle-price-policy/

For some reason that article reminded me of Archie Bunker and math.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da0eaiZ0CKw

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Post #: 221

RE: Business Model - 1/11/2011 10:52:14 PM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames.

I thought about this while playing Storm over the Pacific last night. Exactly which wargame is it that not anyone can play? WitP? Anyone can learn to play that. All you have to do is go through trial and error to learn the game mechanics. There's no special intelligence involved.

Maybe you mean boardgames? I played Starfleet Battles for over 10 years. The rules alone are three books and that's the core game. And I'm no rocket scientist. I'm just an average Joe.

Intellectual doesn't mean the same as requiring special intelligence. Just an entertainment that involves thinking and learning stuff about history and tactics and strategy instead of for example training better reflexes.
As for the elite nature of the hobby - it certainly requires bigger involvement, greater patience, ability to spend time on learning stuff, etc. which is a big entry barrier for an entertainment.

You still have not answered my question. Exactly which wargame is it that not everyone can play? You specifically said "let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames."

< Message edited by ilovestrategy -- 1/11/2011 10:54:34 PM >

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Post #: 222

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:04:57 AM

Anthropoid

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Well whether or not 'most' people CAN play wargames or not, it is true that most people have no interest in playing war games. From that standpoint I think it is pretty unquestionable that there is something 'special' about wargamers. 'Elite' can have all kinds of negative connotations, but one of its basic meanings is 'special.'

I don't know if that is what Perturabo really meant, but that is how I took it. I didn't read that he thinks we are 'superior' or 'better,' just special, different, unusual.

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Post #: 223

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 4:07:41 AM

wworld7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Well whether or not 'most' people CAN play wargames or not, it is true that most people have no interest in playing war games. From that standpoint I think it is pretty unquestionable that there is something 'special' about wargamers. 'Elite' can have all kinds of negative connotations, but one of its basic meanings is 'special.'

I don't know if that is what Perturabo really meant, but that is how I took it. I didn't read that he thinks we are 'superior' or 'better,' just special, different, unusual.

I think this is a good way to look at Perturabo's statement. For every hobby, the groups of people involved are "special". Without a doubt it doesn't make us (wargammers) better or worse than other people. It is just something that makes life interesting for us. That is the purpose of hobbies.

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Post #: 224

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 8:32:23 AM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Well whether or not 'most' people CAN play wargames or not, it is true that most people have no interest in playing war games. From that standpoint I think it is pretty unquestionable that there is something 'special' about wargamers. 'Elite' can have all kinds of negative connotations, but one of its basic meanings is 'special.'

I don't know if that is what Perturabo really meant, but that is how I took it. I didn't read that he thinks we are 'superior' or 'better,' just special, different, unusual.

I think this is a good way to look at Perturabo's statement. For every hobby, the groups of people involved are "special". Without a doubt it doesn't make us (wargammers) better or worse than other people. It is just something that makes life interesting for us. That is the purpose of hobbies.

Ok, I can accept that. Maybe I took it too literally.

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Post #: 225

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 9:47:34 AM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Modern wargames are severely underpriced taking in account how small and elite (let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames.

I thought about this while playing Storm over the Pacific last night. Exactly which wargame is it that not anyone can play? WitP? Anyone can learn to play that. All you have to do is go through trial and error to learn the game mechanics. There's no special intelligence involved.

Maybe you mean boardgames? I played Starfleet Battles for over 10 years. The rules alone are three books and that's the core game. And I'm no rocket scientist. I'm just an average Joe.

Intellectual doesn't mean the same as requiring special intelligence. Just an entertainment that involves thinking and learning stuff about history and tactics and strategy instead of for example training better reflexes.
As for the elite nature of the hobby - it certainly requires bigger involvement, greater patience, ability to spend time on learning stuff, etc. which is a big entry barrier for an entertainment.

You still have not answered my question. Exactly which wargame is it that not everyone can play? You specifically said "let's not cheat ourselves, it's not like just anyone can play wargames."

Have you missed the last decade in mainstream gaming or something? Wargames are niche because people who enjoy intellectual pursuits like learning tactics, learning history, learning about historical hardware, etc. are a minority.
Most of complex genres have declined or became a niche. Hell, even some RTS series are getting dumbed down by removing the strategy part from them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

But the context of your post was this meaning."e�lite or �lite (-lt, -lt)
n. pl. elite or e�lites
1.
a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: "In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them" (Times Literary Supplement).
b. The best or most skilled members of a group: the football team's elite."
Why not just admit you were being condesending and arrogant and apologize?

It would be b. A part of Elite among gamers because we don't consider having to learn something to play game bad because "it's like studying for school" and we don't demand that our games should be dumbed down, actually we usually demand the opposite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wgs_explorer

Do I have to return my WitP-AE and BftB games? I don't make 100K/year. (I may even have to return WitP too!)

You mean you could afford WitP-AE and BtfB and don't consider yourself to have a reasonably high income? So, what's reasonably high income according to you? Having 5 Ferraris?

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Post #: 226

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 11:02:56 AM

diablo1

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quote:

You mean you could afford WitP-AE and BtfB and don't consider yourself to have a reasonably high income? So, what's reasonably high income according to you?

Someone who makes minimum wage of $7.25/hr could afford both WitP-AE and BftB and even WitE if they really wanted those games. They'd just have to pull the funds from other entertainment sources not give up the moon for them. Why I remember a time when I made only 1.25/hr and I still bought Avalon Hill board wargames regularly.

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Post #: 227

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 12:37:27 PM

Yogi the Great

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From: Wisconsin
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Wargamers?
Now isn't that special!

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Post #: 228

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 1:50:58 PM

bairdlander2

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Ok we understand you were not saying wargamers are "superior" etc etc.But your point was wargaming is a "niche" market(agreed) and because it requires more "intellect" and "patience" than mainstream mindless FPS,it therefore "belongs" to people with higher incomes.This is implying(which means "read between the lines") that superior/higher intelligence equates higher income.Your analogy as an excuse to raise the prices of pc wargames based on what you said is absurd.

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Post #: 229

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:04:16 PM

vonRocko

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Face it people, the average wargamer is somewhat brighter than the average shmuck! I just need to look at my friends and associates to see that. It also follows that these bright people tend to make more money, usually due too more education and motivation. We are a true minority.

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Post #: 230

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:10:11 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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I have no idea how much money you guys make, and I really don't see the relevance. Pricing is not about how much people can pay, it is about profits. Charge too much, you reduce your market share, you lose profits; charge too little and without a product/business model that allows for sufficient volume to compensate for reduced profit per unit, you do not cover your overhead, you lose profit.

They said flat out that "this is what we need to charge for this product." Apart from the fact that, they project there are not enough of "us" to allow for sufficiently high volume for lower price, the issue of the average wargamers salary is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Can we get some more witty Archie Bunker videos now?

ADDIT: I'm also not sure that intellect or 'brightness' has anything to do with it. Really smart people might not waste brain power on onerous mental puzzles like WitP or TOAWIII. Instead, they might want to do something mindless and relaxing for entertainment like Pacman or Toomb Raider.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 1/12/2011 2:12:34 PM >

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Post #: 231

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:19:17 PM

Yogi the Great

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From: Wisconsin
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I see a great flaw in the argument going on here.

If being bright and intelligent meant more wealth, then I would have to be the richest person in the world.

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Post #: 232

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:21:39 PM

Karri

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I'll just wait until next christmas sale before I buy WiR. Should be a reasonable price then, sure as hell aint paying 70 something.

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Post #: 233

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:25:39 PM

vonRocko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

I see a great flaw in the argument going on here.

If being bright and intelligent meant more wealth, then I would have to be the richest person in the world.

It just means you are capable of more wealth, you still have to go get it!

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Post #: 234

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:50:32 PM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2264
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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Here is an interesting article from 1985 http://www.atarimagazines.com/v4n3/WarGames.html

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Post #: 235

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:52:07 PM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

quote:

You mean you could afford WitP-AE and BtfB and don't consider yourself to have a reasonably high income? So, what's reasonably high income according to you?

Someone who makes minimum wage of $7.25/hr could afford both WitP-AE and BftB and even WitE if they really wanted those games. They'd just have to pull the funds from other entertainment sources not give up the moon for them. Why I remember a time when I made only 1.25/hr and I still bought Avalon Hill board wargames regularly.

Yeah, I suspected that. Personally, I can't afford a car, a cell phone or a modern computer, I don't go to cinema, etc. but I still find money to collect antique games that cost like 130-180 PLN (which requires as much work as getting 130-180$ in USA) with shipment.
And I consider myself to have a reasonably high income, since I have internet access, my own computer, electricity, water, gas, roof under head, and I'm well fed, unlike people who are poor.

From what I've seen, most of people seem to object to price of for example BftB solely on the ground of some rule that says that games should cost under 50$.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Ok we understand you were not saying wargamers are "superior" etc etc.But your point was wargaming is a "niche" market(agreed) and because it requires more "intellect" and "patience" than mainstream mindless FPS,it therefore "belongs" to people with higher incomes.This is implying(which means "read between the lines") that superior/higher intelligence equates higher income.Your analogy as an excuse to raise the prices of pc wargames based on what you said is absurd.

So, being able to learn to play let's say WitP and preference for games like WitP wouldn't be in correlation with ability (like in ability to prioritise, plan, passion, patience etc.) to save up 165$ to buy such a game?

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Post #: 236

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:57:45 PM

bairdlander2

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Its not a reason to jack the price to $165.Yes according to surveys wargamers have more disposible income,but not all and thats no reason to increase prices.

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Post #: 237

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 2:58:47 PM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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read this http://wargamecenter.wordpress.com/.../the-rise-and-fall-of-wargaming/

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Post #: 238

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 3:02:36 PM

Perturabo

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Sounds more like lack of cheap and simple entry-level wargames than the prices themselves. Of course, such games wouldn't be premium products grognards, but products for new gamers which would be much less complex and thus would require much less work to make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Its not a reason to jack the price to $165.Yes according to surveys wargamers have more disposible income,but not all and thats no reason to increase prices.

I think it's a perfect reason to increase prices. Especially if it would transfer to higher quality of further titles.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 1/12/2011 3:11:29 PM >

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Post #: 239

RE: Business Model - 1/12/2011 3:19:52 PM

bairdlander2

Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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Right,Billings and Grigsby sit down and say "gee,if we got paid more,we would put in more of an effort and increase the quality of our product".I dont think so.They do a fine job as it is and paying them more will not increase their efforts or quality.Trust me if they could get away with charging $165 per game,they would already be doing just that.

(in reply to Perturabo)

Post #: 240