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RangerX3X -> Business Model (7/13/2010 11:37:39 PM)

I am a casual wargamer at best. I primarily play other PC games such as Madden, Arma 2, Bad Company, COD4, Dirt 2, etc. I have a wide variety of games and I spend easily over $700 a year in video games and accessories. And that is just my PC - that doesn't cover squat with my XBox 360.

I stumbled across a demo on FilePlanet called Red Devils Over Arnhem. I was hooked and wanted the game badly. But this was 2007 and the game was impossible to find. I then came across Highway to the Reich for $14.99 new on a reseller site and picked it up. That game is simply a blast to play. I can get deep into and then walk away for several months and then come back. It is a keeper.

So it was/is with great anticipation that I look(ed) forward to COTA and BFTB. Much to my dismay, I constantly run into the iron fist of Matrix Games. COTA & BFTB cannot be found anywhere that I call tell brand new other than from Matrix. While I have certainly gotten my moneys worth and then some from HTTR, and I easily fork over cash for new games at $49.99 a clip, I have to choke to hold back the projectile vomit that comes from reviewing the prices from Matrix for these titles.

$79.99 for a digital download of BFTB? $59.99 for a digital download of COTA? $49.99 for HTTR?

Are you guys freaking nuts??

While this business model may make sense to you and you certainly may be making sales through your portal, you are most definitely alienating the first-time to casual wargamer market. Some of these games do not even have a demo that I am aware of.

Charging $49.99 for HTTR, a masterful game that was released over 7 years ago, is absolutely stunning. On what possible grounds can you justify this?

The newer games at $59.99 & $79.99 respectively do not have demos that I am aware of and you are pricing them at what a collectors edition console game could go for at Best Buy.

This simply does not make any sense why you would price out all but the hardest of the hardcore wargamers.

I'd love to play these games, but not at those prices. Not anywhere near those prices.



sullafelix -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 12:03:00 AM)

Well to put it into perspective computer wargames in 1984 were selling for $ 59.95.

There were no demos then. Of course there was a return policy at most stores also.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 1:51:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerX3X

why you would price out all but the hardest of the hardcore wargamers.

Because Matrix knows we will buy them.I know what you mean though I have purchased 9 Matrix titles over the past 2 years and out of those I think the only ones worth the money were the Close Combat series,BftB and CotA.Also WitPAE,but its too time consuming and I havnt even tried it after playing for 3 weeks.



jomni -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 2:59:55 AM)

FYI... You can buy Matrix Games at a discounted price (with physical CD) from here:
http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/matrixgames1.html

The Panther Games titles have the disadvantage of the developers being Austarlian. The exchage rate contributes to the high price.  BTW, I do not also agree with the pricing policy of BFTB.

Other good games from Matrix are not as expensive and are reasonable.

So don't put all the blame on Matrix.



boatrigm -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 4:28:45 AM)

I was upset with the price too but went ahead and bought BFTB. It's a great game and worth every penny.



jomni -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 4:55:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: boatrigm

I was upset with the price too but went ahead and bought BFTB. It's a great game and worth every penny.


No gamebreaking CTDs for you so far?



JudgeDredd -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 7:26:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerX3X
... you are most definitely alienating the first-time to casual wargamer market...

I can assure you they are alienating more than their fist-time casual wargamer market.

I for one have been a long term supporter of Matrix Games and actively promoted and anticipated the release of BftB. I buy what and when I can frim Matrix. I still haven't picked up (nor am I likely to pick up) BftB. Ironically, I've probably spent in excess of £100 on games since BftB release...I just refuse to pay over £50 for a game. That's most definitely my ceiling.

When my wages go up - I'll re-evaluate

The developer should've stayed out the price argument...his curt "we're happy with sales and the price will not be falling" statement was an "in yer face" comment and just made me dig my heals in. Unfortunately I'll be unlikely to buy any other Panther games after that little outburst. I'm still seething about it tbh.

Meant to say - having said all that - it's their business. They can do what they like. But the more they shut that door, the less likely I'll be hanging around.



Hertston -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 8:48:39 AM)

quote:


Are you guys freaking nuts??


Opinion is mixed!

I ended up (note, 'ended up'!) forking out as I think the system is best wargaming engine there is. Others views differ; JD for example has an 'upper limit' that I seemingly don't, but is happy enough to fork out 35 quid on a rehash of a 1997 game (albeit an excellent one) which is something I totally draw the the line at. No criticisms, just different wants, and differences of opinion.

Like you, I can't see the current prices getting sales from anything but existing 'hard-core' wargamers, although in fairness (with a few exceptions, such as yourself) that's a boundary this series never really crossed even when you could pick up RDoA or HttR for a sensible price. I simply can't believe, though, that RAISING the price of CotA generated more revenue overall (compared reducing it, to encourage people to try and then buy BftB). But, then, I don't have the accounts.

My gripe is not so much with paying top-whack for genuine 'premium' titles, but over-pricing across the board (as perceived by a British customer). This is the consequence of a failure to adopt 'local' pricing which, whatever the justifications for that failure (which I'm fully aware of) is, at present, making Matrix more and more uncompetitive for a 'cross-genre' gamer like me. The 'price' of that is that while I did buy BftB and will buy WitE that's all from the both recent and upcoming crop that I will buy. Two or three years ago I would buy maybe two out of three of all Matrix titles. But with 'premium' games emptying the pot, and the likes of Steam adopting sensible pricing policies, the 'maybes' all become 'no, I don't think so'. I know Matrix can't compete with the might of Steam, but I look at what I just picked up in their sale for less than what 'Storm over the Pacific' alone would have cost me and just think... erm, well, er no.. [:(] Especially when I know that in the not too far distant future Gamersgate will heavily discount that title from the initial (much the same) price, even if Matrix don't.




doomtrader -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 9:55:16 AM)

quote:

Especially when I know that in the not too far distant future Gamersgate will heavily discount that title from the initial (much the same) price, even if Matrix don't.

GamersGate is not discounting the title, Wastelands Interactive does.



Hertston -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 10:07:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
GamersGate is not discounting the title, Wastelands Interactive does.


Noted, but to the end-customer that makes no difference.



sterckxe -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 11:09:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I still haven't picked up (nor am I likely to pick up) BftB. Ironically, I've probably spent in excess of £100 on games since BftB release...I just refuse to pay over £50 for a game. That's most definitely my ceiling.


Too bad because you're missing out on a great game. Not trying to argue with your price ceiling, but have you counted the money you spend on games which fell under your price limit, but weren't worth it ? Wouldn't it then be better to spend 10 or 20 over your limit to have a game you'll be playing for months ? Anyway, the demo for BFTB should be out this or next week. Download it and play it. Then tell me this game isn't worth the price.

Basically it's a bit like liking gourmet food, but refusing to pay a little premium over a MacDo meal.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Fred98 -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 12:14:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
I know Matrix can't compete with the might of Steam, but.......



I have no Steam games because they publish hopeless games.

And therefore Matrix becomes competitive.

All bar 1 games of the last 5 years have been Matrix. 9 The other was Decision Games)

-



JudgeDredd -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 12:15:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
...Then tell me this game isn't worth the price.

Eddy

I didn't say it wasn't worth the money [;)]



Twotribes -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 12:31:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
I know Matrix can't compete with the might of Steam, but.......



I have no Steam games because they publish hopeless games.

And therefore Matrix becomes competitive.

All bar 1 games of the last 5 years have been Matrix. 9 The other was Decision Games)

-


CWIE? Is their board down for you?



Twotribes -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 12:32:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
...Then tell me this game isn't worth the price.

Eddy

I didn't say it wasn't worth the money [;)]


So you admit you do not want to pay fair price? [:D]



JudgeDredd -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 12:42:31 PM)

Nope - I admit that I have a ceiling of £50 for a game. I base that on how long I'm likely to play any one game...and that is seldom very long...even the mighty BftB - I know this because as much as I loved CotA, I didn't play it much after the 4th week of having it...why? Because I bought other games. Sure I go back to it now and again and it's never been off my hard drive since installing. The engine is second to none. They are great games...unfortunately, great games do not hold my attention.

We've been through all this - so I'll stop there. Everyone has their reasons for justifying and not justifying and I've made my decision and given my reason.

Sure - I'll miss out...hey ho...life's full of choices. [:D] I'll get by.



Perturabo -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 12:57:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

Basically it's a bit like liking gourmet food, but refusing to pay a little premium over a MacDo meal.

With worms.



MajFrankBurns -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 1:01:01 PM)

quote:

The developer should've stayed out the price argument...his curt "we're happy with sales and the price will not be falling" statement was an "in yer face" comment and just made me dig my heals in. Unfortunately I'll be unlikely to buy any other Panther games after that little outburst. I'm still seething about it tbh.


Same here bro. I spend nearly $700 a year myself on PC gaming alone and that's just gaming I spend another $500-$600 on hardware if I'm so inclined and Matrixgames is not getting any of that save for the Christmas sales and even that has fallen off in the last few years as their library isn't what I'm looking for most of the time.

I like a company that supports its customers and REWARDS them several times a year with SALES like Stardock and even though Paradox has the worst release method of all of them I still buy their products even if it is less than $10 most of the time. [:'(]

I just shelled out $80 <~~~~ yep that's right eighty dollars on the Collectors Special Edition of Elemental by Stardock. See Stardock is giving us more than just a game, colorful cloth maps, a pewter dragon and a PRINTED GD MANUAL/ENCYCLOPEDIA of the game as well as colorful artwork. I also can play it now in the Beta session which is 3A right now and soon going to the tactical combat part being opened up.

I will NOT shell out $80 for BftB which is nothing more than a repeated battle of WW2 that has been done to death since 1966 in some form or another. Big deal it has an engine where the ai can play without much input by the player. It's continous pauseable realtime blahzay. I wouldn't pay more than $20 right now for it when there was a time I would have bought it for $60 just as a collectors item. HTTR for $49.99? that's such a laugh as I bought my copy in Best Buy years ago for $7.99 (notice Matrixgames doesn't put much in the retail stores anymore).




Erik Rutins -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 2:14:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns
Same here bro. I spend nearly $700 a year myself on PC gaming alone and that's just gaming I spend another $500-$600 on hardware if I'm so inclined and Matrixgames is not getting any of that save for the Christmas sales and even that has fallen off in the last few years as their library isn't what I'm looking for most of the time.


You ought to at least get your facts straight. In terms of sales, our last two holiday sales have been the biggest in our history, with more games on sale and deeper discounts than in the past.

quote:

I like a company that supports its customers and REWARDS them several times a year with SALES like Stardock and even though Paradox has the worst release method of all of them I still buy their products even if it is less than $10 most of the time. [:'(]


Our holiday sale last year went on for six weeks! In addition, there were other blitzkrieg sales. As a result, if I understand what you really mean here is just that you want our games to be priced the same as games on Impulse or GamersGate that have already had retail releases, are mass market oriented and are able to sell for $5-$10 because it's just incremental profit at that point in their life cycle. Sorry, but that's a recipe to put us out of business quite quickly - it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of this niche market.

quote:

I just shelled out $80 <~~~~ yep that's right eighty dollars on the Collectors Special Edition of Elemental by Stardock. See Stardock is giving us more than just a game, colorful cloth maps, a pewter dragon and a PRINTED GD MANUAL/ENCYCLOPEDIA of the game as well as colorful artwork. I also can play it now in the Beta session which is 3A right now and soon going to the tactical combat part being opened up.


Comparing Elemental to one of our releases is frankly a demonstration of how you've misunderstood this niche. That's not even in the ballpark of an apples to apples comparison in terms of development and promotional budget, development team size, target audience and release plan.

quote:

I will NOT shell out $80 for BftB which is nothing more than a repeated battle of WW2 that has been done to death since 1966 in some form or another. Big deal it has an engine where the ai can play without much input by the player. It's continous pauseable realtime blahzay. I wouldn't pay more than $20 right now for it when there was a time I would have bought it for $60 just as a collectors item. HTTR for $49.99? that's such a laugh as I bought my copy in Best Buy years ago for $7.99 (notice Matrixgames doesn't put much in the retail stores anymore).


If you haven't played it, then you wouldn't really know what it is or is not. It's the most realistic operational simulation of the Battles in the Bulge to date. If that's of value, then here it is - no one else is making it and no one else will come close to it in terms of realism. I would recommend that you give the free demo a try once it's released later this month.

We send on average one game per year to retail, but retail for PC games is just about gone. The change there is simply the reality of what retail is now compared to what it was ten years ago for PC games.

Regards,

- Erik



MajFrankBurns -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 2:32:53 PM)

quote:

You ought to at least get your facts straight. In terms of sales, our last two holiday sales have been the biggest in our history, with more games on sale and deeper discounts than in the past.


Oh wow a once a year sale and RARELY a NEW RELEASE is EVER on that SALE. You make us wait TWO years before you put 99% of your new releases onsale and you know it. You also didn't start those blitzkrieg sales until very recently maybe 2 years ago. Plus they come and go so fast if someone doesn't browse this forum every single day they will miss out anyway. And we're lucky if you have more than one blitzkrieg sale a year. Where's your MONTHLY NEWSLETTERS like Slitherine does?

quote:

Our holiday sale last year went on for six weeks! In addition, there were other blitzkrieg sales. As a result, if I understand what you really mean here is just that you want our games to be priced the same as games on Impulse or GamersGate that have already had retail releases, are mass market oriented and are able to sell for $5-$10 because it's just incremental profit at that point in their life cycle. Sorry, but that's a recipe to put us out of business quite quickly - it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of this niche market.


I don't understand how you let Paradox and Strategy First and even Slitherine before you (had) to partner with them outdo you in sales and service? How come they can "afford" to give sales on everyone of their products and you can't? You even have a larger library or did. Even Slitherine your partner now gives "preorder" sales on games like Field of Glory and its expansions. Plus their games are priced accordingly around $30 for most new releases. Also, your games don't have to be $10 but for gods sakes games 15 years old should be somewhere in that range.

quote:

Comparing Elemental to one of our releases is frankly a demonstration of how you've misunderstood this niche. That's not even in the ballpark of an apples to apples comparison in terms of development and promotional budget, development team size, target audience and release plan.


I'm comparing a PRICE TAG and the VALUE vs that PRICE. More for my money that's the bottom line and that's all that matters to a consumer. You think I wonder how many beans are in a can of Pork n Beans? I care about the PRICE first and then the Ounces and then value per ounce.

quote:

If you haven't played it, then you wouldn't really know what it is or is not. It's the most realistic operational simulation of the Battles in the Bulge to date. If that's of value, then here it is - no one else is making it and no one else will come close to it in terms of realism. I would recommend that you give the free demo a try once it's released later this month.


I haven't played it because you have priced it out of its value to ME! If you can't understand that then I can't help you understand. I realize you are in the business to make a profit but at some point it turns from profit to greed. In this case that is what I see compared to the hundreds of other wargames out there. You act as if BftB is gods gift to mankind of a wargame. Sorry, but its not. There will be many others after it as there are before it. It's just one game a high pricey one game for what it offers. Same with HTTR and COTA. I have played HTTR and plain and simple I didn't care for it. So that is another reason BftB has no extreme value to me.




sterckxe -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 2:46:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns
I have played HTTR and plain and simple I didn't care for it. So that is another reason BftB has no extreme value to me.


So you're complaining about the price of a game you don't care about being too high ?

Might I suggest just skipping it ?

Kind Regards,

Eddy Sterckx




Erik Rutins -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 3:01:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns
Oh wow a once a year sale and RARELY a NEW RELEASE is EVER on that SALE. You make us wait TWO years before you put 99% of your new releases onsale and you know it. You also didn't start those blitzkrieg sales until very recently maybe 2 years ago. Plus they come and go so fast if someone doesn't browse this forum every single day they will miss out anyway. And we're lucky if you have more than one blitzkrieg sale a year.


It's pretty clear I cannot make you happy, but for what it's worth the rule of thumb is more like we don't put games released in the last 6-9 months in the Holiday sale. Before the mega-sales of the last two years, it was more restrictive. You claimed that our holiday sales were getting worse, when in fact they have been getting significantly better.

quote:

Where's your MONTHLY NEWSLETTERS like Slitherine does?


http://www.matrixgames.com/community/newsletter.asp

quote:

I don't understand how you let Paradox and Strategy First and even Slitherine before you (had) to partner with them outdo you in sales and service? How come they can "afford" to give sales on everyone of their products and you can't? You even have a larger library or did. Even Slitherine your partner now gives "preorder" sales on games like Field of Glory and its expansions. Plus their games are priced accordingly around $30 for most new releases. Also, your games don't have to be $10 but for gods sakes games 15 years old should be somewhere in that range.


In general, you are comparing retail titles and retail-oriented publishers to us and that's not an apples to apples comparison. Offering pre-orders is a store technology issue, hopefully we'll be able to do that in the future, but it's also partly a philosophical issue. Once you offer pre-orders and start coming under pressure from customers who have already paid for the game, there is a tendency to put getting the release out ahead of making sure the release is ready. Resisting this pressure can be difficult. Philosophically, we prefer to make sure we feel the release is ready before we set a release date and we don't like to let anything get in the way of that.

As far as pricing, again these are very different markets and games. You could send BFTB to retail for $30 a box and that would be a good way to guarantee there is no future for the series. We have a number of games in our $19.99 and under section, we don't generally price lower than $19.99 due to the fixed costs we have with DR.

quote:

I'm comparing a PRICE TAG and the VALUE vs that PRICE. More for my money that's the bottom line and that's all that matters to a consumer. You think I wonder how many beans are in a can of Pork n Beans? I care about the PRICE first and then the Ounces and then value per ounce.


The point is that games like Elemental have a completely different economy of scale than BFTB. That's simply the way it is. You can't make a game as serious and realistic as BFTB and expect it to appeal to as many people as Elemental. Therefore, the price also can't be the same. If you enjoy and want more real wargames vs. strategy games, then you have to realize that they are in their own niche and have their own business model. Comparing mainstream games to niche wargames is simply an uninformed comparison. It is obviously your choice which game to buy and in the end they both compete for the same dollar, but it comes down to each gamer's preference as to what better addresses their interests.

quote:

I realize you are in the business to make a profit but at some point it turns from profit to greed. In this case that is what I see compared to the hundreds of other wargames out there.


If we were greedy, frankly we would not be making niche wargames. We would be making games like Elemental which would make us all far wealthier than catering to a niche (a niche we happen to love, which is why we do this). In a way it's the same question as why pay $80 for BFTB. Why would I not work on more mainstream games if I could make two or three times the money? Because I happen to love wargames. That's the same reason I'd buy BFTB over Elemental (though I'd buy both if I could afford both).

quote:

You act as if BftB is gods gift to mankind of a wargame. Sorry, but its not. There will be many others after it as there are before it.


I simply claim it is the most realistic simulation of those battles created to date. Is it the right game for you? Only you can make that decision. Will there be others like it if not enough wargamers buy it? Absolutely not, at least not for many years, but that's also why the price is set where it is.

The market for a game like this is relatively small and the folks who prefer these games over other kinds of games have to be the ones to make sure more games like this are developed. Ultimately the market will decide whether there will be more games like this or not.

Regards,

- Erik




MajFrankBurns -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 3:25:37 PM)

I guess I just wished I could understand why you don't want MORE shoppers in your store. I've seen it so many times over my lifetime these NICHE HOBBY SHOPS open up and close in the middle of the night. They never survive because they are like a horse with blinders on and focus on ONE THING. So now my question is why don't you do like Paradox and Strategy First and even Stardock and BRANCH OUT into other avenues so you can open your doors to "everyone" instead of just your niche friends and family? Remember KayBee toy stores? How about M.E. Moses?(I used to get my toy army men from there in 100pc packages) Gibson's Discount Centers?

Also I never see that newletter in my email that's what I'm talking about when I say news LETTER. (key word being letter) An EMAIL to me about an upcoming sales or promotion would be nice. I get Slitherines every single month.




MajFrankBurns -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 3:27:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns
I have played HTTR and plain and simple I didn't care for it. So that is another reason BftB has no extreme value to me.


So you're complaining about the price of a game you don't care about being too high ?

Might I suggest just skipping it ?

Kind Regards,

Eddy Sterckx




Did I say I didn't care about it? You need to comprehend what you read. I said I didn't care for HTTR. I made no futher comments as to WHY! You just ASSumed and you know what ASSuming does don't you? [:-]



bairdlander2 -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 4:14:11 PM)

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns


[/quote]
I have played HTTR and plain and simple I didn't care for it. So that is another reason BftB has no extreme value to me.


[/quote]
You are not making any sense.If you didnt like HTTR why would you have any interest in BftB?You say BftB has no value to you,yet you rant and rave about the price?Give us a break from your nonsense Killroyishere.[&:]



sterckxe -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 4:20:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns
I have played HTTR and plain and simple I didn't care for it. So that is another reason BftB has no extreme value to me.


So you're complaining about the price of a game you don't care about being too high ?

Might I suggest just skipping it ?



Did I say I didn't care about it? You need to comprehend what you read. I said I didn't care for HTTR. I made no futher comments as to WHY! You just ASSumed and you know what ASSuming does don't you? [:-]


Oh, at this point, and after having read a dozen of your posts, I'm assuming a lot more. Here's another assumption : I'll never have to read another one of them again - <plonk>

Eddy Sterckx



PunkReaper -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 4:41:59 PM)

quote:

<plonk>


??



JudgeDredd -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 4:49:45 PM)

I think that's the imaginery sound the green button makes [:D]



PunkReaper -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 4:51:51 PM)

ah mine makes more of a <F@%K YOU> type of sound



Phatguy -> RE: Business Model (7/14/2010 4:59:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

Basically it's a bit like liking gourmet food, but refusing to pay a little premium over a MacDo meal.

With worms.


Sounds like the Big Boys we went to in Acapulco in '83.........worm burgers



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