RE: Business Model (Full Version)

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V22 Osprey -> RE: Business Model (7/22/2010 8:54:18 AM)

The definition of a wargame is and will always be subjective, but we can all agree that StarCraft, Company of Heroes, and Command and Conquer aren't wargames.

My definition of Wargame is: A Simulation of War using realistic battlefield conditions and situations. Things like supply, Command and Control, Line of Sight, realistic armor model, morale, and fatigue. A Wargame can be anywhere from commanding squad to command an entire country. It can be Hypothetical or Historical as long as all previous conditions are met. But Overall, it's a simulation and representation of actual war.

I think we use "Wargame" to differentiate our small niche of more hardcore strategy games from those unrealistic action games with a strategy theme genre the media created.

About War in the Pacific and Storm over the Pacific, yes they have base building and unit production, but look at your position. It is realistic to be worry about about building the right bases and production when you are a commander at that high of scale. It is UNREALISTIC when you a Company Commander having rifleman magically appear from little green tent with a star on it.(*cough* Company of Heroes *Cough*)




vonRocko -> RE: Business Model (7/22/2010 1:15:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey



Anyway, I'm not going to argue.

For someone who isn't going to argue, you make some good arguements.[:D]




Knavery -> RE: Business Model (7/22/2010 2:45:05 PM)

Wow... Yet another thread derailed. Do all of you guys have A.D.D or something? Every topic I click on around here seems to be derailed a couple pages in. What's up with that?




diablo1 -> RE: Business Model (7/22/2010 5:51:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavery

Wow... Yet another thread derailed. Do all of you guys have A.D.D or something? Every topic I click on around here seems to be derailed a couple pages in. What's up with that?


I know what you mean Knavery but these ones aren't as bad as those who derail threads with their history books or history lessons about some subject we aren't even talking about.




Widell -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 1:17:12 PM)

Flashpoint Germany is not even a fruit by the apples and oranges comparison. It's a very nice game for a beer and pretzel session, and very, very good for introducing people new to this type of gaming (won't even touch the subject of RTS, Turn Base, What Not, so I bundle all "our" games in the same bundle for the sake of this argumentation). BftB, COTA and HTTR are just so completely different in all aspects compared to Flashpoint. Still. All of them are good games, depending on what you feel like playing the moment...




jomni -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 2:48:15 PM)

Gameplay-wise. Both FPG and BFTB are both operational in nature and encourages pre-planning, coordination, SOP settings. If you play Russians, you have to give orders expecting not to change them for several turns ahead due to the command limitations. FPG though is not realtime and does not have command and control features.

FPG is more like a simpler and more stable version of POA2.  But POA2 can be compared to BFTB because it's a full combat simulation with command and control, communications bandwidth, friendly fog of war, resolves each bullet / shot. Not real time but we-go like FPG.  Very buggy due to the detailed calculations.

Hey lets get back to talking business models.





Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 5:37:08 PM)

One problem I REALLY have with the excuse for the price being so high was that it took a long time to make the game. Well, Im sorry the developer was slow, or took his time, or whatever was wrong with him he couldnt make the game as fast as every other game maker out there and still charge normal price. Even if its one guy doing all of it by himself it doesnt matter. I shouldnt have to pay extra becasue you are too limited in budget or too cheap to hire help.

In most industries you get a deadline,....not meeting that deadline means you get paid LESS not more. In fact raising the price because the developer taking longer than usual is an incentive for the developer to drag his feet..




joeblack1862 -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 7:18:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

apples and oranges at the end of the day are both still fruit so same food catagory.


Good shot.





Jeffrey H. -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 7:30:59 PM)

Since the subject of developer incentives has been raised, it's my opinion and concern that all this complaining about price will completely disincentivize developers.

From those developers that I have met, they are not wealthy individuals. In fact I believe only a very few of them can claim to be making a decent living off being a game developer from games sales directly. If they can find better things to do with their 'spare' time, they probably will.

Many years ago the big budget games moved out of our section, (the stuff that Matrix publishes) of the hobby and I doubt they will ever return. We are left with dedicated individuals who are doing what they like or what interests them rather than what enriches them.

So, when people make such a fuss over the price of the products, as if somehow they were personally targeted, I'm sure the thoughts run through developers heads about this hobby simply isn't worth their time, lives and effort.




Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 8:17:49 PM)

Well a lot of gamers arent wealthy. Charging them an extra $30 isnt the answer.




vonRocko -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 8:30:27 PM)

When there is a buck to be made, there will always be someone making these games. If current developers aren't up to the task, there are others can take over.
This idea, that we must take their garbage or they will pack it up, is nuts!




wworld7 -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 10:10:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Well a lot of gamers arent wealthy. Charging them an extra $30 isnt the answer.


Maybe an extra $30.00-50.00 for better games is the answer and maybe it's not. I would rather spend $100.00 on a solid game than buy two for $50.00 which are no good.

Wealthy or not, everybody has to decide what products to buy. I've had to cut down my expenses for hobbies. I don't complain about prices, I've accepted my budget can't afford everything I want. Recently I have been more picky and look for quality over volume in all my hobbies. Prices going up for quality products is a trend that isn't going to change.




Widell -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 11:16:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni
Gameplay-wise. Both FPG and BFTB are both operational in nature and encourages pre-planning, coordination, SOP settings. If you play Russians, you have to give orders expecting not to change them for several turns ahead due to the command limitations. FPG though is not realtime and does not have command and control features.

FPG is more like a simpler and more stable version of POA2.  But POA2 can be compared to BFTB because it's a full combat simulation with command and control, communications bandwidth, friendly fog of war, resolves each bullet / shot. Not real time but we-go like FPG.  Very buggy due to the detailed calculations.

Hey lets get back to talking business models.


At the risk of contributing to the inevitable derailing, I have to give you right in the sense FPG and BFTB are similar in the sense they are "operational in nature and encourages pre-planning, coordination, SOP settings". But then again, that adds countless of games to the category, since it's a comparison on a very high level of abstraction. Almost at the altitude where everything's comparable. Take out operational, and you're almost there [;)]

Sorry about that, has very little to do with business models, but as a reference, FPG ships at €25, BFTB at €65 and POA2 at around €46 + €12 shipping. I also agree BFTB and POA2 are close in scope (but very different in implementation and gaming philosophy!) and they also end up comparable in price, although POA2 is hardcopy. FPG is an entry level game which on the 30,000 ft level has some similarities with both POA and BFTB, but again, that is such a cloud free altitude so the comparison is close to irrelevant. This is also obvious in the pricing of the products. Neither BTFB, nor POA is catering to the noobs or the customers looking for a beer and pretzels game.




Terminus -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 11:26:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

When there is a buck to be made, there will always be someone making these games. If current developers aren't up to the task, there are others can take over.
This idea, that we must take their garbage or they will pack it up, is nuts!


Aside from the fact that this is the basis for capitalism, you mean? Stop whining and get over yourselves...[8|]




Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 11:29:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Well a lot of gamers arent wealthy. Charging them an extra $30 isnt the answer.


I would rather spend $100.00 on a solid game than buy two for $50.00 which are no good.




I would rather spend $50 and get a solid game,........I should not have to pay extra for the game to be good.




vonRocko -> RE: Business Model (7/23/2010 11:41:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

When there is a buck to be made, there will always be someone making these games. If current developers aren't up to the task, there are others can take over.
This idea, that we must take their garbage or they will pack it up, is nuts!


Aside from the fact that this is the basis for capitalism, you mean? Stop whining and get over yourselves...[8|]

Get over yourself termite, maybe if you had a life away from the computer, you would understand what whining is. My post was a response to the previous one that stated developers might give up if we complain to much. There is no "whining" about it.




wworld7 -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 12:36:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

I would rather spend $50 and get a solid game,........I should not have to pay extra for the game to be good.


$50.00 works for me to, except that the games I like (for example WITP, WITE, MWIF) can no longer be produced at that price range. I have a background in software so understanding this reality is not a problem. Am I happy prices have increased, of course not. But it doesn't bother me nearly as much as cigarettes going from .75 a pack to $8.25 in the last 35 years.

Since nobody can force me to buy $50.00 junk games and nobody can force you to pay more than you want. We each have control about what we buy, so complaining about price doesn't make much sense to me.

The really old days (1976) when big pitchers of beer cost $2.00 is another thing I miss...[:)][:)][:)]





diablo1 -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 1:56:04 AM)

Where I come from the pitchers of beer are still $2.00 but the size of a pitcher has decreased to the size of a mug. Oh and we use shot glasses for our mugs now. [:D]




SireChaos -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 3:58:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Well a lot of gamers arent wealthy. Charging them an extra $30 isnt the answer.


I would rather spend $100.00 on a solid game than buy two for $50.00 which are no good.




I would rather spend $50 and get a solid game,........I should not have to pay extra for the game to be good.


Why not go all the way? We really should get all the games we want for free, shouldnīt we?

Sorry, but whining and incessant barrages of "but I want to" arenīt going to help.




SireChaos -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 4:04:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

When there is a buck to be made, there will always be someone making these games. If current developers aren't up to the task, there are others can take over.
This idea, that we must take their garbage or they will pack it up, is nuts!


You automatically assume that there is a buck to be made making wargames... highly specialized, highly complex products for a niche audience. Thereīs a buck to made making real-time strategy C&C clones, and first person shooters, and those hidden object puzzle games that are flooding the market, but not hardcore wargames like WitP.

And, just FYI, the idea that, if you just complain loudly enough and rudely enough, reality will just roll over and deliver what you demand, THAT is nuts. If wargame producers need to sell their product at $60 or $80 or $100 to be able to pay their bills and perhaps even produce another game for you to whine about, then they will sell them for that price, and NOT for $50, and most wargamers will buy them for that price. That doesnīt people here wouldnīt be happy if the games cost half as much, but most of us understand that wargame producers donīt operate in Magic Fairy Land where everything comes for free.




Perturabo -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 5:09:43 PM)

To be honest, games like WitP require lots of time to learn and have incredible amount of stuff to do. If the game is so complex and so hard to learn, imagine how much work it would require to make.
Just read this interview.




Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 8:07:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Well a lot of gamers arent wealthy. Charging them an extra $30 isnt the answer.


I would rather spend $100.00 on a solid game than buy two for $50.00 which are no good.




I would rather spend $50 and get a solid game,........I should not have to pay extra for the game to be good.


Why not go all the way? We really should get all the games we want for free, shouldnīt we?

Sorry, but whining and incessant barrages of "but I want to" arenīt going to help.



Sure,.......I would like my games for free,...sure,..but I am willing to pay what they are worth,......but not more. Especially nearly twice as much as what they are worth, just because they developer took a long time making it.

And by the way,.....if thats the best argument you can come up with for raising the price of games ...."why not just make them free then",.....then you should give up now.




Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 8:12:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

That doesnīt people here wouldnīt be happy if the games cost half as much, but most of us understand that wargame producers donīt operate in Magic Fairy Land where everything comes for free.



Then why does almost every single other game that comes out cost around $50? Your argument doesnt make any sense at all. I guess in the magic fairy land this developer operates in everything costs twice as much than in the magic fairy land every developer works in.
Most of us realize this developer is being greedy, and he has lost quite a few sales becasue of it. So, he has hurt himself with his greed,...and the attitude he has about it. Having someone like you, throwing out stupid excuses isnt helping him either.




SireChaos -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 9:03:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

That doesnīt people here wouldnīt be happy if the games cost half as much, but most of us understand that wargame producers donīt operate in Magic Fairy Land where everything comes for free.



Then why does almost every single other game that comes out cost around $50? Your argument doesnt make any sense at all. I guess in the magic fairy land this developer operates in everything costs twice as much than in the magic fairy land every developer works in.
Most of us realize this developer is being greedy, and he has lost quite a few sales becasue of it. So, he has hurt himself with his greed,...and the attitude he has about it. Having someone like you, throwing out stupid excuses isnt helping him either.


Thatīs very simple.

Making a game costs money - developers, publishers, programmers etc etc all have bills to pay, and thus donīt do their work for free.

Hence, if you need someoneīs work in order to make a game, and this someone does not work for free, you need to pay him.

Thus, if you have to pay someone - especially quite a few someones - to make a game, there are certain costs, so-called "fixed costs", because they are fixed per product (say, one batch of fixed costs for WitP, one batch for Uncommon Valour, one batch for War Between the States, and so on), not per unit (i.e. per each copy of WitP sold). Add advertising to this, plus fixed costs on the company levels (Matrix Games pays rent for their offices, for their warehouses, salaries for their staff etc etc).

There are also variable costs, that is, costs per each unit sold - like the production cost of the actual physical product, plus shipping, or the costs of hosting and bandwidth for download product.

So, in order to try and break even on their product, the company needs to "charge" each copy sold with a portion of the fixed cost, which means they need to estimate how many units theyīre going to sell.

However, hardcore wargames like WitP donīt sell as many units as more mainstream games, so each copy expected to be sold gets a much bigger portion of the fixed cost.

Of course, the company also would like to make a profit, much like companies producing mainstream games. So the price of a copy of a computer game (actually, the price of pretty much *anything*) is fixed cost plus variable cost plus profit.


Letīs make this clear with a simple example, the number for which Iīve pulled out of my ass, solely for the purpose of illustrating what I said above.

Letīs say a hardcore wargame - call it "Conflict in the Pacific" - costs $200,000 to produce, and $10 per copy sold, and the publisher and developer, between them, expect $10 of profits per copy sold.
Letīs then say a mainstream game - call it "Quarter Life 3" - costs $500,000 to produce, and $9 per copy sold (a little less than CitP, because unlike CitP, it doesnīt come with a fat manual), and the publisher and developer, between them, also expect $20 of profits per copy sold.
However, Conflict in the Pacific is expected to 5,000 copies, because itīs a niche product which appeals only to grognards, of which there arenīt that many. Quarter Life 3, on the other hand, appeals to a lot of gamers and is expected to sell 500,000 copies.

So, each copy of Conflict in the Pacific is going to cost $60 ($200,000/5,000 + $10 + $10) - and would have to cost $50 even if nobody expected to make any money off it. Whereas Quarter Life 3 is going to cost $30 ($500,000/500,000 + $9 + $20). And no amount of whining and demanding is going to make CitP sell for $30, because the developers and publishers arenīt going produce something that costs them $20 in losses per copy sold.




Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 9:16:47 PM)

Basically what you are saying is that because the game is in a niche market, they have to sell it for more to make up for fewer sales. Makes good sense right up to the point that you look at all the other games in the same niche market that cost $50, and the developers make a profit just fine.

If this developer doesnt know how to develop a game at the same production cost as everyone else,...then he needs to give up game making and leave it to those that know how to do it without having to overcharge their customers, or learn what it is he is doing wrong that is forcing him to charge more than everyone else.




SireChaos -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 9:44:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Basically what you are saying is that because the game is in a niche market, they have to sell it for more to make up for fewer sales. Makes good sense right up to the point that you look at all the other games in the same niche market that cost $50, and the developers make a profit just fine.

If this developer doesnt know how to develop a game at the same production cost as everyone else,...then he needs to give up game making and leave it to those that know how to do it without having to overcharge their customers, or learn what it is he is doing wrong that is forcing him to charge more than everyone else.


Oh dear... itīs just like you donīt WANT to understand.

The makers of Witp and such arenīt working any more expensively than anyone else. Itīs just that their games have more content.

Or do you think the morons who produce 2 litre pepsi bottles need to get out of the business, because the 1 litre pepsi bottles sell for less?




Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 10:25:27 PM)

Oh no, I get your point............

Your point is if the game warrants the extra cost you shouldnt complain.
My point is that BftB, judging by the demo,..does NOT warrant the extra cost.

So far I have not seen one valid reason for the extra cost.

I have saw....it took a long time to develop,....so tell the developer to get off his butt and get the job done. Dont charge me extra for his slowness.
I have saw that its a solid, relativly bug free game.......... congratulations,....you did your job correctly................. still nothing to charge extra for.
I have saw that its a great game.......... again congratulations,....your game joined the hundreds of other great games......they didnt charge extra,.so still not a valid reason.

So please enlighten me,...what is there to warrant whats basically double the cost of most games?




Plodder -> RE: Business Model (7/24/2010 11:16:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Oh no, I get your point............

Your point is if the game warrants the extra cost you shouldnt complain.
My point is that BftB, judging by the demo,..does NOT warrant the extra cost.

So far I have not seen one valid reason for the extra cost.

I have saw....it took a long time to develop,....so tell the developer to get off his butt and get the job done. Dont charge me extra for his slowness.
I have saw that its a solid, relativly bug free game.......... congratulations,....you did your job correctly................. still nothing to charge extra for.
I have saw that its a great game.......... again congratulations,....your game joined the hundreds of other great games......they didnt charge extra,.so still not a valid reason.

So please enlighten me,...what is there to warrant whats basically double the cost of most games?


In Panther's case, it's the exchange rates, pure and simple. Panther Games is in Australia, Matrix is based in the US. When Matrix sells a PG game they pay PG in US dollars, PG then convert those dollars into Aussie dollars to pay their bills.

A few years ago the US dollar was at a pretty stable and favourable exchange rate which allowed PG to pay those bills. Now that the US$ has slumped against most currencies PG would actually get a lot less than what they got for COTA if they charged the same price. Someone in the BftB forum said the price for BftB in Aus$ is pretty much the same as COTA was in 2006.




TonyAAA -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 12:42:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Plodder

In Panther's case, it's the exchange rates, pure and simple. Panther Games is in Australia, Matrix is based in the US. When Matrix sells a PG game they pay PG in US dollars, PG then convert those dollars into Aussie dollars to pay their bills.

A few years ago the US dollar was at a pretty stable and favourable exchange rate which allowed PG to pay those bills. Now that the US$ has slumped against most currencies PG would actually get a lot less than what they got for COTA if they charged the same price. Someone in the BftB forum said the price for BftB in Aus$ is pretty much the same as COTA was in 2006.


^ I'm not sure if exchange rate changes alone can explain the $80/90 pricetag on a (normally) $50/60 game.

2010's current year average USD to AUD rate is around 1.12
2006 averaged 1.32

That's less than a 20% difference in exchange rate changes.

So a $50/60 game bought in 2006 would give Panther about 66/80 AUD.

Paying $80/90 for BftB in 2010 means Panther gets roughly 90/100 AUD.




wworld7 -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 12:55:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR


I have saw....it took a long time to develop,....so tell the developer to get off his butt and get the job done. Dont charge me extra for his slowness.


I think you are misunderstanding the above item. Looking at it from a length of time angle led you off course I believe.

IMO, what "it took a long time to develope" meant was that the number of man-hours for programming required were higher than many lower quality games. To get the job done in a shorter timeframe would have actually resulted in a higher production cost and thus an even higher retail prices. Your reasoning comes across as assumptions or guesses and shows little knowledge of the actual process software companies work with.

I don't think you live in a fantasy land, I just don't believe you understand the process. Which results in what comes across as complaining when what you need is somebody to teach about the industry (or go work for software company for 2-3 years). This won't lower costs but will enable you to make an informed argument in the future that people may respect.




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