RE: Business Model

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diablo1 -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 1:01:49 AM)
Well if you compare say the inflation rate of bread, milk, gas etc since the 80's games today should cost about $200-$250 each. We're getting a pretty good deal that most games are staying at the $50 range while a handful are trying for premium prices but still nowhere near the inflation rates of most groceries and essentials we need today. I do realize we don't "need" games but it was just something to toss out there of how much everything has increased in 25 years except computer games.

Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 2:12:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish quote: ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR I have saw....it took a long time to develop,....so tell the developer to get off his butt and get the job done. Dont charge me extra for his slowness. I think you are misunderstanding the above item. Looking at it from a length of time angle led you off course I believe. IMO, what "it took a long time to develope" meant was that the number of man-hours for programming required were higher than many lower quality games. To get the job done in a shorter timeframe would have actually resulted in a higher production cost and thus an even higher retail prices. Your reasoning comes across as assumptions or guesses and shows little knowledge of the actual process software companies work with. I don't think you live in a fantasy land, I just don't believe you understand the process. Which results in what comes across as complaining when what you need is somebody to teach about the industry (or go work for software company for 2-3 years). This won't lower costs but will enable you to make an informed argument in the future that people may respect. What you say makes a ittle sense,...but........... Games cost $50 average. I will pay $50 average for a normal game. I WILL pay more for a game I deem as worth it. It doesnt make a bit of difference to me how long the game took to make,....I base its worth off of the finished product. This finished product is NOT worth the cost of two games. Whether it took 10 years or 50 years to make is irrelevant when it comes to deciding what the game itself is worth.

Perturabo -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 2:13:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR If this developer doesnt know how to develop a game at the same production cost as everyone else,...then he needs to give up game making and leave it to those that know how to do it without having to overcharge their customers, or learn what it is he is doing wrong that is forcing him to charge more than everyone else. Except that it's not how the free market works. Developers invest their time and money into game development. Developers dictate the price. If there's enough customers that find the product valuable enough to pay the price, then the developers succeed. Success is based on developing something that people will value highly. Apparently enough people think that BtfB is worth their 90$. Your theories aren't going to change it.

Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 2:13:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: diablo1 Well if you compare say the inflation rate of bread, milk, gas etc since the 80's games today should cost about $200-$250 each. We're getting a pretty good deal that most games are staying at the $50 range while a handful are trying for premium prices but still nowhere near the inflation rates of most groceries and essentials we need today. I do realize we don't "need" games but it was just something to toss out there of how much everything has increased in 25 years except computer games. As a kid my parents paid $19.99 for most games. $24.99 at the most. The cost of games has more than doubled since then. Nearly tripled.

Perturabo -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 2:19:35 AM)
They probably bought re-editions of old games, then. New games costed 40-70$.

Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 2:43:42 AM)
No, they didnt. I am 40 and am talking about games for the apple IIE, the IBM PC, and even the old Atari 2600 console. And yes games did cost around $20 then brand new. Of course most of them were text based,...or had the most basic of graphics.

jomni -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 2:52:14 AM)
Games back in the days were developed by small teams. Even one-man-shows. Now most major games are produced by hordes of developers.

Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 3:00:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jomni Games back in the days were developed by small teams. Even one-man-shows. Now most major games are produced by hordes of developers. And they sell many,many,many,many more copies too.

Perturabo -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 4:40:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR No, they didnt. I am 40 and am talking about games for the apple IIE, the IBM PC, and even the old Atari 2600 console. And yes games did cost around $20 then brand new. Of course most of them were text based,...or had the most basic of graphics. I checked out SSI catalogue from 91 and a Microprose catalogue from 1988. In Microprose catalogue, new games cost 40$ - 70$. F19 Stealth Fighter on PC costed 70$. All 20$ games are from 1982-1986. In SSI catalogue RPG games cost 50$ - 60$ (some C64 versions cost 40$) with majority costing 50$ and all wargames cost 50$-70$ with majority costing 60$. Some sports games costed 20$.

wworld7 -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 4:47:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR What you say makes a ittle sense,...but........... Games cost $50 average. I will pay $50 average for a normal game. I WILL pay more for a game I deem as worth it. It doesnt make a bit of difference to me how long the game took to make,....I base its worth off of the finished product. This finished product is NOT worth the cost of two games. Whether it took 10 years or 50 years to make is irrelevant when it comes to deciding what the game itself is worth. I'm glad I was able to get my point across to you. We have always agreed it is the final product that we as customers base our opinions of cost on. We each have our own standards, and there is nothing wrong with having an opinion that a game is not worth the price to you. But attacking the process without a solid basis, just came across less mature than I believe you would want your opinion to be viewed. I have very little hope, but here's hoping for a return of quality $50.00 games that we both like.[:)][:)][:)]

Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 8:24:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Perturabo quote: ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR No, they didnt. I am 40 and am talking about games for the apple IIE, the IBM PC, and even the old Atari 2600 console. And yes games did cost around $20 then brand new. Of course most of them were text based,...or had the most basic of graphics. I checked out SSI catalogue from 91 and a Microprose catalogue from 1988. In Microprose catalogue, new games cost 40$ - 70$. F19 Stealth Fighter on PC costed 70$. All 20$ games are from 1982-1986. In SSI catalogue RPG games cost 50$ - 60$ (some C64 versions cost 40$) with majority costing 50$ and all wargames cost 50$-70$ with majority costing 60$. Some sports games costed 20$. http://www.scribd.com/doc/24431065/SSI-Summer-1987-Catalog As you can see most games cost 39.95. A few cost 49.95, a few cost 59.95. There are just as many that cost 29.95 or even 14.95. I quit playing PC games around 1986,...halfway through high school. So a year earlier. If you look at the same scan I posted above, you will find a link to an 85 catalog. Most games in it are 39.95 also. So yeah when I quit games were just starting to reach the $40 mark on average. A few years earlier they were indeed around $20, as you saw in the microprose catalog from 82-86,...right when I am talking about.

wworld7 -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 11:03:24 AM)
WOW, that SSI catalog brought back good memories. Carriers at War was a blast. I'm friends with my boss from 1987 and he still kids me that I only asked for 2-3 hours of over-time when I wanted to buy some stupid wargame or part for my computer. He failed to see the joy in my hobbies.

Perturabo -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 6:16:55 PM)
So, the Microprose game prices have doubled around 1986 and old games were sold at the same prices as when they were sold even to 6 years before? Interesting stuff. I guess they always sold full versions of the games. I wish it would be possible to classics like Fallout in full version for an old price nowadays.

Scott_WAR -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 8:02:11 PM)
I just wish that most developers had the love for their profession that was so obvious in those old games. Most games nowadays make so many compromises in order to release a little earlier............... ends taking a great game and making a so-so game.

Arctic Blast -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 9:44:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Perturabo So, the Microprose game prices have doubled around 1986 and old games were sold at the same prices as when they were sold even to 6 years before? Interesting stuff. I guess they always sold full versions of the games. I wish it would be possible to classics like Fallout in full version for an old price nowadays. Have you checked out Good Old Games yet? They've got a bunch of older games legally re-released with the publishers/developers brought on board, with almost all of the games working in XP and Vista. Fallout is $5.99. [:)] http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/fallout

Perturabo -> RE: Business Model (7/25/2010 9:48:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR I just wish that most developers had the love for their profession that was so obvious in those old games. Most games nowadays make so many compromises in order to release a little earlier............... ends taking a great game and making a so-so game. I think that the point of "greed" is to bring back the times when doing great games without many compromises. Problems start when people pay 90$ and can't play the game normally for a month because of CTDs. But speaking about greed... I think there are two kinds of greed - good greed and bad greed. Good greed motivates people to hard work, creativity, learning, etc. It's a good thing. Then there's bad greed that motivates people to lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, disrespect customer/worker rights, etc. just to get more money. That bad greed really pisses me off. For example claiming that a game (which doesn't have a demo) has "Accurate and realistic modern equipment modelling" when it doesn't have mechanics for modern equipment like ATGMs, reactive armour, composite armour, night vision, AA weapons, etc. even worse, when weapons data is unrealistic and sometimes completely doesn't make sense. Claiming "Accurately depicts modern tactical warfare and its challenges" when it doesn't include characteristic elements of modern warfare like presence of civilians on battlefields and enemy units that blend into civilian population, IEDs, night fighting. Hell, when a game from these series that has these features is released to military before the release of the game marketed like that, there's certainly something wrong with that statement. But even with these features, it's impossible to accurately depict modern tactical warfare without investing into creating a command & control and friendly fog of war systems like in PoA2 and enemy AI that actually provides some of the challenges of modern warfare that the game is supposed to accurately depict. This really pisses me off, lying to customers and unfair competition (attempting to sell a game with invented features that aren't in game while other people worked hard to actually implement these features), more when a developer and publisher don't see anything wrong with their lies and continue to lie even after being called out on their bullshit. quote: ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast quote: ORIGINAL: Perturabo So, the Microprose game prices have doubled around 1986 and old games were sold at the same prices as when they were sold even to 6 years before? Interesting stuff. I guess they always sold full versions of the games. I wish it would be possible to classics like Fallout in full version for an old price nowadays. Have you checked out Good Old Games yet? They've got a bunch of older games legally re-released with the publishers/developers brought on board, with almost all of the games working in XP and Vista. Fallout is $5.99. [:)] http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/fallout Except that they aren't selling in full version. They are selling just the program. Here is how a full version of Fallout 2 looks like. Here is how a full version of Baldur's Gate looks like.

diablo1 -> RE: Business Model (7/26/2010 12:52:24 AM)
Another interesting fact is games back then were only 2mb to 5mb for the most part and many less than 1mb. Cost to produce was a lot cheaper then as well. Everything today is in the gigabytes for the most part. You must pay a premium for those quality graphics.

Joe D. -> RE: Business Model (7/26/2010 1:02:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins ... We send on average one game per year to retail, but retail for PC games is just about gone. The change there is simply the reality of what retail is now compared to what it was ten years ago for PC games. I can attest to that; I bought my first Matrix titles retail abt a decade ago, but since then the shelf space alloted for computer games has shrunk considerably in the face of all the evolving consoles and their peripherals.

V22 Osprey -> RE: Business Model (7/26/2010 3:00:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joe D. quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins ... We send on average one game per year to retail, but retail for PC games is just about gone. The change there is simply the reality of what retail is now compared to what it was ten years ago for PC games. I can attest to that; I bought my first Matrix titles retail abt a decade ago, but since then the shelf space alloted for computer games has shrunk considerably in the face of all the evolving consoles and their peripherals. Internet is the way of the future with digital distribution.

histgamer -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 7:00:28 AM)
It has been mentioned before that not many new customers come here and purchase games because of the cost and perhaps I am an exception but Hey I still count don't I? I stumbled upon Matrix Games after downloading a free copy of the original WITP. I fell in love with that game at the age of 18, purchased WITP for 60 or w/e it was when I was 20, and purchased WITP AE at 21 22? In my opinion those are the types of games worth $80 because even though it is insainly detailed and may put many people off it's the type of game I will play on again and off again for 5 or more years without a doubt. While I don't regularly purchase games off of Matrix I am always looking at what is being released here with interest, I will probably get Eagle Day Bombing the Reich sooner or later once I have some money for it... The only other place I think that supports its games as well and are as willing for feedback and passionate are the guys who made the Take Command Series and their new game "Scourge of War Gettysburg" and yes the guy who runs that has another day job. I just wish there was a bigger market for Niche games so games like WITP AE and Scourge of War were not so rare.

JudgeDredd -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 7:03:19 AM)
Has Scourge of War lost it's DRM yet? As suggested many moons ago?

histgamer -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 7:07:42 AM)
Their working on putting together a CD version so you don't need to be connected to the internet but I guess the developer is a tad paranoid because in the two take command games pirating really killed profits and they ended up making no money largely because of it. In fact they lost a lot of money. I really wanna purchase the full version of the game but I need a new PC before that will happen.

jomni -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 7:24:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy The only other place I think that supports its games as well and are as willing for feedback and passionate are the guys who made the Take Command Series and their new game "Scourge of War Gettysburg" and yes the guy who runs that has another day job. I just wish there was a bigger market for Niche games so games like WITP AE and Scourge of War were not so rare. Hard to imagine a game that is both Niche but with a big market share.

Bison36 -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 7:46:58 AM)
Spammers bringing old threads back to life. [8\|]

sterckxe -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 8:13:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy Their working on putting together a CD version so you don't need to be connected to the internet It's an "activation by email" scheme - so it's still a case of "if publisher goes defunct, so does your game". quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy but I guess the developer is a tad paranoid because in the two take command games pirating really killed profits and they ended up making no money largely because of it. In fact they lost a lot of money. They lost a lot of money by getting screwed by Paradox and because going retail with a wargame isn't the best way of making money. That's why Norb Timpko went with digital download this time. His paranoia is caused by there really being folks out there out to get him, but that's another sad story this forum isn't meant for. Greetz, Eddy Sterckx

htuna -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 12:14:23 PM)
Scourge is a great game and it is not priced too high... The only thing that bums me out about the activation, is that you can only do one computer at a time.. so I have to remember to de-activate if I'm switching between desktop and laptop... Once it's activated you don't have to be online or connect to the developer.. but if you want to de-activate and activate on another you do..

David Heath -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 4:58:54 PM)
Hi We are in the middle of some changes and one of them is the newsletter. Stick around and I think you will be happy at the changes. David quote: ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns I guess I just wished I could understand why you don't want MORE shoppers in your store. I've seen it so many times over my lifetime these NICHE HOBBY SHOPS open up and close in the middle of the night. They never survive because they are like a horse with blinders on and focus on ONE THING. So now my question is why don't you do like Paradox and Strategy First and even Stardock and BRANCH OUT into other avenues so you can open your doors to "everyone" instead of just your niche friends and family? Remember KayBee toy stores? How about M.E. Moses?(I used to get my toy army men from there in 100pc packages) Gibson's Discount Centers? Also I never see that newletter in my email that's what I'm talking about when I say news LETTER. (key word being letter) An EMAIL to me about an upcoming sales or promotion would be nice. I get Slitherines every single month.

z1812 -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 6:20:14 PM)
When it comes to game value, consider what one costs to play on an hourly basis. So if I play a new game on average for 1 hour a day, over 2 months I have had 60 hours of entertainment. Using BFTB as an example at $80 that resolves at $1.33 per hour. Not a bad average when compared to movies, a night out with friends, and many other fun things. Plus I have the game to play whenever I wish. The difficult part is to try and make wise purchases and often that is not easy with whatever we wish to buy. So game companies develop a game, arrive at a price, and put the game on the market. It is really our decision if we will buy them or not. As an aside, I wonder if people realize how open and tolerant the Matrix forums are. Many others are not. Regards John

histgamer -> RE: Business Model (9/27/2010 10:48:03 PM)
z1812 I certainly appreciate how tolerant they are. Many other forums would have deleted dozens of the posts on here including some forums which would delete any games not affiliated with the company that hosts the forum.

jomni -> RE: Business Model (9/28/2010 1:32:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: z1812 When it comes to game value, consider what one costs to play on an hourly basis. So if I play a new game on average for 1 hour a day, over 2 months I have had 60 hours of entertainment. Using BFTB as an example at $80 that resolves at $1.33 per hour. Not a bad average when compared to movies, a night out with friends, and many other fun things. Plus I have the game to play whenever I wish. The difficult part is to try and make wise purchases and often that is not easy with whatever we wish to buy.[\quote] But if you have other games to play, time spent on the game is less. Too many games, too little time to play. We eventually have to make a choice. quote: As an aside, I wonder if people realize how open and tolerant the Matrix forums are. Many others are not. That's why I like it here.

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