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RE: Is swamp defense being looked at?

 
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RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 12:15:50 AM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring
Wow! Can the LW destroy 6000 planes in T1 and the Russian airforce still bite back? On T1 or a few turns later?


Yes it can and that is historical too. Luftwaffe surprise strike on Soviet airfield at start of operation Barbarossa was probably one of the largest successes in known military history.

"The Luftwaffe claimed to have destroyed 1,489 aircraft on the first day of operations.[16] Hermann Göring, Chief of the Luftwaffe distrusted the reports and ordered the figure checked. Picking through the wreckages of Soviet airfields, the Luftwaffe's figures proved conservative, as over 2000 destroyed Soviet aircraft were found.[16] The Germans claimed to have destroyed only 3,100 Soviet aircraft in the first three days. In fact the Soviet losses were far higher, some 3,922 Soviet machines had been lost (according to Russian historian Viktor Kulikov).[17] The Luftwaffe had achieved air superiority over all three sectors of the front, and would maintain it until the close of the year, largely due to the need by the Red Army Air Forces to maneuver in support of retreating ground troops. The Luftwaffe would now be able to devote large numbers of its Geschwader (See Luftwaffe Organization) to support the ground forces."

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Operation_Barbarossa

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Post #: 31
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 12:46:16 AM   
notenome

 

Posts: 608
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		Funny thing about Halder is that after the war he worked in the US Army Historical Division, and was awarded the Meritorious Civilian Service Award. As for swamps, in fact Vlasov made sixth army's life a living hell raiding them continuously from the Swamps as they stalled near Kiev, so much so that Vlasov bears the dubious honor of being the only general deliberately targeted for destruction by Hitler (especially ironic since he latter defected). That said, having armored units in swamps not project ZOCs makes some sense, but I think what would make more sense would be for any armored unit in a swamp to have a much increased percentage of its vehicles become damaged.

(in reply to Jakerson)
Post #: 32
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 2:15:43 AM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		That quote from Halder actually comes from the US Army publication "Combat in Russian Swamps and Forests".

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

Funny thing about Halder is that after the war he worked in the US Army Historical Division, and was awarded the Meritorious Civilian Service Award. As for swamps, in fact Vlasov made sixth army's life a living hell raiding them continuously from the Swamps as they stalled near Kiev, so much so that Vlasov bears the dubious honor of being the only general deliberately targeted for destruction by Hitler (especially ironic since he latter defected). That said, having armored units in swamps not project ZOCs makes some sense, but I think what would make more sense would be for any armored unit in a swamp to have a much increased percentage of its vehicles become damaged.



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(in reply to notenome)
Post #: 33
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 2:47:17 AM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

That quote from Halder actually comes from the US Army publication "Combat in Russian Swamps and Forests".

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

Funny thing about Halder is that after the war he worked in the US Army Historical Division, and was awarded the Meritorious Civilian Service Award. As for swamps, in fact Vlasov made sixth army's life a living hell raiding them continuously from the Swamps as they stalled near Kiev, so much so that Vlasov bears the dubious honor of being the only general deliberately targeted for destruction by Hitler (especially ironic since he latter defected). That said, having armored units in swamps not project ZOCs makes some sense, but I think what would make more sense would be for any armored unit in a swamp to have a much increased percentage of its vehicles become damaged.




One of my reference books has this beautiful color picture of an entire platoon of T34s sunk up to their turrets in a swamp.

(in reply to Great_Ajax)
Post #: 34
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 3:37:42 AM   
notenome

 

Posts: 608
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		Yes I remember when I was playing lost victories there's a reference to a comissar who ordered a company (I think) of T-34s into a swamp, and after realizing his mistake, shot himself.

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Post #: 35
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 4:26:01 AM   
Zebedee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Yeah, I gotta say that after reading that bit from Halder, he was deeper into the untermensch koolaid than I thought. I get what he's trying to say here, but the way he is saying it is pretty revealing.

His diaries don't contain anything like that. Or maybe they were polished up.


His 'diaries' are really just notes he kept from the war and then polished up post-war. Even in the polishing, the odd little thing is let slip with regards to his feelings on various races (IIRC one such comment which slipped through redaction is related to Hungarian demands just prior to Barbarossa). Interesting to note is the similarities between what the post-war Halder attributes to the Soviets and what certain British general officers attributed to the Japanese during the war. Also of interest are the lacunae in the OKH survey of the marshes, especially in light of the German operations there in WW1.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 36
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 6:04:30 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		In my tests, which were after the last changes regarding swamps, seem that they reflected the problems with swamps. Yes there a bitch, plan around them...

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Post #: 37
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 2:53:59 PM   
henri51


Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		If you forget the racist overtones, what Halder was saying was that the Russians were better than the Germans in fighting in difficult terrain, especially forested swamps,because they knew how to use it to their advantage. The US soldiers faced the same type of problem in Vietnamese jungles, not to mention the British in the American Revolutionary War. ("Vat are those American soldiers doing behind our lines and attacking before daylight? NO FAIR! Is that any vay to fight a var"?)

Henri

< Message edited by henri51 -- 1/13/2011 2:54:33 PM >

(in reply to B455)
Post #: 38
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 7:48:13 PM   
B455

 

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Joined: 2/25/2010
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Also consider the numerous Soviet Siniavino offensives to raise the Leningrad blockade that took place in swamps... Or Staraya Russa area offensives or Volkhov... In all these battles terrain that was mostly marshlands greatly favoured the defender and Soviets took terrible losses for basically getting nowhere.

(in reply to henri51)
Post #: 39
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/13/2011 8:25:32 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

If you forget the racist overtones, what Halder was saying was that the Russians were better than the Germans in fighting in difficult terrain, especially forested swamps,because they knew how to use it to their advantage.
Henri


Yes. And from the brutal combats in Stalingrad we should therefore conclude that the Russians were good at figthing in cities... because after all the Russian landscape contained some cities

This clown (Halder that is) could not see the truth simply because he was looking through a racist glass... And the truth was simply that the Soviets would NOT surrender, they would fight to the last man or woman. Ergo the place of the combat per se IS totally irrelevant: marshes, cities, plains, rivers or mountains... If the Germans want it, they will get it. End of the story. It is also called the will to resist. A competent military guy should know this.

And one more thing, as far as I know the Japanese don't have jungles (Malaysia and Burma campaigns). And they were reputed jungle warriors. Just like the Australians in New Guinea

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Post #: 40
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/15/2011 11:22:43 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		So far I have not seen a big problem attacking into swamps in my testing.  I have often been able to push Soviets out of swamps at 2-1 odds or better, even when they are in forts.  May have uncovered an unrelated bug and I'll keep testing.

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Post #: 41
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/15/2011 12:37:05 PM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

So far I have not seen a big problem attacking into swamps in my testing.  I have often been able to push Soviets out of swamps at 2-1 odds or better, even when they are in forts.  May have uncovered an unrelated bug and I'll keep testing.


It does seem to vary a lot - sometimes you can bounce them (rare but does happen), sometimes you'll need your infantry to grind them out. Still struggling to get to grips with the combat mechanics to figure out what the key differences are other than random chance. Similar story with city/urban hexes.

(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 42
RE: Is swamp defense being looked at? - 1/15/2011 4:23:05 PM   
turska

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline 		Pretty awesome book about the Airwar during the Barbarossa is:
Barbarossa: The Air Battle July-December 1941 by Christer Bergstrom.

His other works are also highly recommended for air war on the eastern front.

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 43
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