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Manstein KIA in winter quarters.

 
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Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/17/2011 10:57:35 PM   
Senno

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		Sigh. Roughly halfway between Smolensk and Moscow (X95, Y48), 12 hexes from the front. How many checks did he fail to die in the mud in '41 (I've got the newest update, so wasn't expecting any deaths so far back...)? That's quite the stray shell, lol.
Post #: 1
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/17/2011 11:07:25 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Historically possible, though. Plane Crash, Heart Attack, arrest by Gestapo....all of these actually took Generals off the board, not just enemy action.

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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/17/2011 11:11:15 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Well, remember Schobert (11th Army commander) died in 1941 when his plane landed on a russian minefield...accidents can happen...

(in reply to Senno)
Post #: 3
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/18/2011 12:42:36 AM   
Senno

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		True enough I suppose. In a historical game I might expect the dead general to be the general that actually died in '41. More so at least than the a superior general that may be relied on in '42 and on to try to help offset this huge carpet of units bearing down on me. Not to speak of the encroaching winter, which apparently I really can't mitigate the damage from; despite planning ahead, yet I'm down one of my best generals. Perhaps I will be able to hold onto Kharkov and not need his services in '43. Quite frustrating really. Saps the fun out to read one of the best is dead.

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Post #: 4
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/18/2011 12:47:08 AM   
goodwoodrw


Posts: 2661
Joined: 2/14/2005
Status: offline 		How much of pain does a single loss of a general cause, in real game terms?

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Formerly Goodwood


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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/18/2011 12:54:54 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

How much of pain does a single loss of a general cause, in real game terms?



You may be handicapped but it won't matter that much.
A lot of good German generals can replace him.
Take note that a 1 to 2 point difference in ratings does not drastically change the die roll results.

< Message edited by jomni -- 1/18/2011 1:58:04 AM >

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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/18/2011 1:12:45 AM   
Senno

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		I'm unsure as yet. I'm at 11/6/41 and the Soviets are crawling towards me to counterattack. I hope not much. 2nd Panzer is all set back off the line in reserve stance ready to counter-attack. I'm just attached to the "name" I suppose...

Anyway, love the game. It's a dream of a lifetime game to me. And the other games in the series are eagerly awaited.

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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/18/2011 2:48:47 AM   
Mynok


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That's tough luck. The good news is, you can hit Load Scenario to get him back.


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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/18/2011 11:24:25 AM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
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From: Rapid City SD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


That's tough luck. The good news is, you can hit Load Scenario to get him back.



That says it all right there Mynok

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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/18/2011 8:02:10 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Did anyone ever make a serious count of leader (combat/accident)losses in world war 2 (say division commanders and higher ranked)? I know there is a lot of info but did anyone ever combine it somehow? Would be interesting...

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/19/2011 3:46:05 AM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Did anyone ever make a serious count of leader (combat/accident)losses in world war 2 (say division commanders and higher ranked)? I know there is a lot of info but did anyone ever combine it somehow? Would be interesting...


German General Officer casualties:

KIA/DoW: 223
Accidental Deaths: 30
Suicides: 64
Executed (by Germany during war): 20
Died in PoW camp: 128
Died of war related illness: 145
MIA: 32

Source: p.85, Folttmann and Moeller-Witten. Opfergang der Generale, Bernard & Graefe, 1959.

< Message edited by Zebedee -- 1/19/2011 3:51:15 AM >

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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/22/2011 3:06:20 PM   
grofaz

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 1/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

How much of pain does a single loss of a general cause, in real game terms?


In Von Manstein's case historically? A great loss tantamount to loosing Zhukov. Is Manstein's experience modeled accurately in the game? I am not sure, if it is it may well could cost the Axis player the war.

I would mark this as a bug for sure.

(in reply to goodwoodrw)
Post #: 12
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 12:57:00 AM   
Senno

 

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Joined: 12/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Did anyone ever make a serious count of leader (combat/accident)losses in world war 2 (say division commanders and higher ranked)? I know there is a lot of info but did anyone ever combine it somehow? Would be interesting...


German General Officer casualties:

KIA/DoW: 223
Accidental Deaths: 30
Suicides: 64
Executed (by Germany during war): 20
Died in PoW camp: 128
Died of war related illness: 145
MIA: 32

Source: p.85, Folttmann and Moeller-Witten. Opfergang der Generale, Bernard & Graefe, 1959.


How many of these General Officer's were CO's of a unit represented in the game at the time of their death? I don't mind the death of German General Mr. Average Stats, or if I leave Manstein to be over-run or some other condition that general carelessness has caused. But well back off the lines, unit or hex not bombed, no enemy units remotely close, no partisans, not so much. I'd be just as concerned about the death of Zhukov 120 miles behind Western Front, as I play both sides vs AI, no PBEM. It's a minor quibble is all.

< Message edited by Senno -- 1/23/2011 1:03:48 AM >

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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 2:40:46 AM   
Mynok


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All it takes is one guy with a well-aimed pistol. Just ask the Austrians in 1914.


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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 4:53:33 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		32 division co's went mia?I find that hard to beleive.

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Post #: 15
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 5:07:49 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		They may have been killed but there were no surviving witnesses; that's one way to end up in the category.

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RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 6:13:47 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

They may have been killed but there were no surviving witnesses; that's one way to end up in the category.

Don't forget an Eastern Front staple:
surrendering to the Soviets and never being heard from again.
see: Stalingrad.

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 17
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 8:19:28 AM   
Pawsy

 

Posts: 339
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		Remember Manstein lost his own son by 42, his ADC was killed in a plane crash (landed on a minefield), his driver killed on board the torpedo boat Manstein was using to recce Sevastopol (think 7 of the 14 man crew were killed in the attack on the boat). He, and I dont think he was an exception, had many narrow escapes as did others like Rommel. It could have easily been them.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 18
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 8:31:59 AM   
Pawsy

 

Posts: 339
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		Just to give you a grasp of the scale of non combat casualties

The US airforce suffered 6,351 fatal aircraft accidents with over 15,500 fatalities and the loss of over 7,100 aircraft. "Fatal Army Air Forces Aviation Accidents in the United States, 1941-1945". Imagine the number of non combat related deaths for the scale of war in the east? staggering as were the combat losses.

15000 aircrew and 7100 aircraft just on the continental United States in training in 4 years.

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Post #: 19
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 12:26:26 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Thank you for the figures! Interesting and much higher then I expected.


_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Pawsy)
Post #: 20
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 2:30:33 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		Yeah, impressive facts Starbuck.  That's a damn division of men and a several naval fleets worth of aircraft!

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Post #: 21
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 3:31:17 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Maybe he met some cute mail order bride from Minsk who turned out to be a partisan.


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Post #: 22
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 3:54:42 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Maybe he met some cute mail order bride from Minsk who turned out to be a partisan.



ROFL

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Post #: 23
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/23/2011 10:19:14 PM   
Pawsy

 

Posts: 339
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		Few more

Germany's casualty statistics:

* By D-Day, 35% of all German soldiers had been wounded at least once,
11% twice, 6% three times, 2% four times and 2% more than 4 times
* The average officer slot had to be refilled 9.2 times
* Germany lost 136 Generals, which averages out to be 1 dead General every 2 weeks
* Germany lost 110 Division Commanders in combat
* Air attacks caused 1/3 of German Generals' deaths
* 84 German Generals were executed by Hitler

* Germany lost 40-45% of their aircraft to accidents

The sheer scale of casualties is difficult to comprehend.



< Message edited by starbuck310 -- 1/23/2011 10:20:23 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/24/2011 3:43:18 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		The far most majority of those 223 is divisional leader aka below game command level and there for not applical to this game engine deaths.
The other fronts naturally toke their toll too.
Since i did some research into this, using the actual generals in game.

I'd point u too post 57 in this thread
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2662717&mpage=2&key=?

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 1/24/2011 3:44:57 AM >

(in reply to Pawsy)
Post #: 25
RE: Manstein KIA in winter quarters. - 1/24/2011 5:03:41 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: starbuck310
* Air attacks caused 1/3 of German Generals' deaths


Interesting that you brought this up. I recently raided a German HQ and I got a message that a general got killed. :)

(in reply to Pawsy)
Post #: 26
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