Prince of Eckmühl
Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006 From: Texas Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mobius The BR350A appears to be able to penetrate 8cm out to 150 meters. Only about 3 out of the 8 body locations are vulnerable. Though the way the game works with probabilities there is an 8% chance the vulnerable range extends out to about 650 meters. Why has the BR350P round gone unmentioned? It was available October 1943. I don't think the type is even available in PCK. BTW, JasonC is rather more circumspect of the Stug's survivability that some of the locals: quote:
Original: JasonC http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=439405&postcount=2 Russian weapons are systematically undermodeled in CM. I call it the "German physics" factor. Anything they could actually do historically, multiple by a factor of about 0.80 to account for the fanboys advising BTS. Just so you know what you are dealing with. Now to the particulars. The BR-350A was APC, the BR-350B was the improved APCBC (ballistic cap), which significantly improves penetration against sloped armor in particular. The BR-350P is APCR, tungsten penetrator. Of these only the last is exlicitly shown as a separate type of round in CM - the T ammo. The others are lumoed together as AP, and the improvement fielding the B type involved has to show up as improved ammo modeling etc. In reality, the Germans themselves state that the front of a StuG - 80mm - was readily penetrated by the Russian 76mm out to 500 yards. In CM, they will bounce down to point blank range. We call this the UberStuG, a phenomenon no one knew about until CMBB appeared (because, natch, it is wrong). StuGs are also given tiny rariety numbers even at the time they were the best couple percent of the German fleet (late 1943 e.g.), and very low prices for lack of turret low MG ammo etc. Expect to see about 40 gazillion times more of them than the Germans actually had. The T-34s get APCR ammo in CM only starting in 1944. Right in time for it not to make much of a difference because the T-34/85s are already out. Combined with the previous, this makes all the 80mm plates encountered in 1943 much tougher than they actually were. But at least the Russians have the first SU-85s in the second half of that year. Oops, no not really. Because the ammo modeling of the 85mm in calendar 1943 is so poor, you can bang away at a 30/50 StuG from the front at 800 yards, and see one "shell broke up" result after another. Even the guys who advised them on the ammo model admit that is flat wrong. This also applies to the 85mm AA, which the Russians historically used from the Kursk era on as a tank and mech corps heavy AT weapon. In 1944 the ammo modeling improves and they perform like the stats in the window. Before then, they are barely better than the undermodeled 76mm, instead of being the "animal killers" they ought to be. The only 1943 animal killer is the SU-152. It is given a ROF of 2 rounds a minute. The SU-122 would be fine with HC (HEAT ammo), so it gets 0 to 4 of them, usually the lower. Towed 122s and 152s aren't in the game, direct fire, so those are out as well. Historically the performance of the Russian 85mm was better than the US 76mm, but both were roughly the same. The US 76mm suffered from "shatter gap" against roughly 100-110mm plate at medium range, that is accurately modeled but extends to too many other weapons and match ups. Historically, the US 76mm with plain AP penetrated Panther turret fronts at 400 yards. The theoretical penetration was enough to do so at more like 1000 yards, but the shells failed due to the energy of the collision. That is shatter, and it shows up in CM as "shell broke up" results. The larger 85mm that gets more of its basically similar energy from mass (rather than velocity I mean) was much less susceptible to it. That is not shown in CM until 1944. Historically you'd kill Tigers by flank and close with T-34Cs. You can in CM, but you need ranges around 100m or APCR or both, and flat side angles. In addition, behind armor effect is poor against large tonnage vehicles. You can expect to need 3-5 penetrations to get a kill result. A single T-34C with T ammo placed 100m from a Tiger side facing it and ready to fire, has approximately a 1 in 5 chance of killing the Tiger before the Tiger kills it. Which is nonsense of course, Tigers had about that operational record against them without such placement, but we simply put up with it. In 1944 you can use T-34/85s against Panthers. The 85 is OK by then and will KO them through the turret front out to about 600 yards. Occasional partial penetrations at 800, but you really don't want to trade those. Sides are good against the Panther with 85s or 76s. As for Tigers in 1944, the T-34/85 can do them, but watch out for the hull down ones. The front turret of the Tiger I is modeled as about 200mm about 2/3rds of the time. (That is what the "reinforced turret front" entry means). The upper front hull is only the real 100mm. As for Tigers in 1943, forget about the real answer the SU-85, they are neutered by ammo modeling. Forget about the large caliber towed gun solution, since the big ones simply aren't shown and the 85mm AA has its ammo neutered. Forget about SU-122s because they have no HEAT. SU-152s work, with dismal rate of fire. The best answer though is the 57mm ATG, which can kill them under 400m front aspect or more like 600m side aspect, and is stealthy enough to actually get the shots off. Sometimes you need 3 penetrations etc for behind armor effect reasons. The other useful 1943 weapon is the T-34/57, when rariety is off. Otherwise the rariety forbids it in expense terms. Some LL items are useful. The 75L38 Shermans will KO StuGs are 500m when the 76L42 Russian guns will not. The Valentine IX is an affordable 6 pdr when rariety is on, though it is less effective than the Russian 57mm and otherwise a pretty crappy tank by midwar (slow, no MG, limited HE, etc). Captured StuGs can do what SU-85s actually did. The CM counters to cats are assymmetric fighting. Air support is seriously overmodeled in CM and the IL-2 benefits from that more than any other plane in the game. They aren't sufficient against Tigers, but anything less they simple shred (unhistorically, I might add). The Russian infantry tank hunter teams get RPG grenades starting in mid 1943, 2/3rds of them. Those regularly hit and kill out to 40m. (Molotovs on the other hand are completely useless). AT minefields and pioneer demo charges and flamethrowers are other cat killers. High caliber arty can do it (usually gun damage or immobilization results rather than KO) if they are directly on a TRP, otherwise the responsiveness makes it impossible. As for the StuGs, take some 57s, or make a network of 76s with cross fire. And make them turn - vehicle rotation is very slow in CM, the one place turretless actually makes a difference. Beware also of the StuG showing only front armor, angled inward so one flank is deep inside German lines, and at an edge so the other is protected by the bottomless pits at the map edge. You cannot simply apply the Russian historical tactics against German armor in CM. You have to systematically make more use of the air force, of infantry AT and winning the infantry war more generally, of crossfire and ATG ambush, and of a few relatively rare weapons that are CM effective - the 57mm ATG, the SU-152, the T-34/57, LL vehicles. Mass T-34C rushes at Tigers will get masses of T-34s killed and warm the hearts of the Tiger fish-story fanboys who did all this - don't give them the satisfaction.
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