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Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 5:26:07 AM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		It's turn 20 and I think I haven't made enough headway to succeed as the Germans.

They've suffered 2.098.024 million casualties to my 409802.
AGN stalled 30km south of Novgorod at Lake Ilman, and to the east at Lychkovo.
AGC is at Smolensk southward to just a couple clicks east of Gomel.
AGS it at Kiev southward to Nikolaev.

I' just feel I haven't taken any of my objectives, have no hope of taking Moscow or Leningrad, and am probably doomed to failure . . .

Is there a chance at recovery from such a ho-hum start?

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 5:31:50 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Maybe in 42, you have to survive the winter first. That is the biggest test I can think of. Survive the winter in good condition, you have a chance. 

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 5:38:03 AM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		So you think I should just dig in now (in October) and sit it out?

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 5:56:50 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Oh, yes, dig in hard and dig in deep. The Blizzard is brutal. If no mud, launch deliberate attacks at everything next to you but dont advance unless you can pocket a bunch of russians. I don't advance, but mass deliberate attack everything. You can inflict another million casualties if your lucky that way.

But the key is to dig in deep and build those rails.

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 6:07:20 AM   
Fänrik Stål


Posts: 108
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

It's turn 20 and I think I haven't made enough headway to succeed as the Germans.

They've suffered 2.098.024 million casualties to my 409802.
AGN stalled 30km south of Novgorod at Lake Ilman, and to the east at Lychkovo.
AGC is at Smolensk southward to just a couple clicks east of Gomel.
AGS it at Kiev southward to Nikolaev.

I' just feel I haven't taken any of my objectives, have no hope of taking Moscow or Leningrad, and am probably doomed to failure . . .

Is there a chance at recovery from such a ho-hum start?

That's actually worse than the AI Germany is doing in my current GC as the Soviets. Wanna play a PBEM?

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Post #: 5
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 2:37:16 PM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		LOL. I know it is. I did something incredibly stupid in the North, splitting forces to go both East and North to "wrap around" Leningrad. As a result I didn't have enough force in either direction. In the South I circled the Pripyat marshes using far too many Panzer corps for the job and as a result I again had insufficient forces to drive East. I am tempted to start over - this was after all my first attempt at the game (don't we all just jump into the campaign?)

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 3:11:41 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I would play out the winter, then start over. You need to see it to understand it. It's actually better practice for PBEM, because you won't have Leningrad and Finnish Help, which is more realistic for PBEM.

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger......

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 3:16:30 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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quote:

I would play out the winter, then start over.


I agree - you will get badly battered in your first First Winter, but you should pick up clues on how to survive better next time around. It is also important that you see what recovery potential you have in the March 1942 Snow turns, as you can recover ground lost during the blizzard turns.

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 3:24:25 PM   
WilliePete

 

Posts: 265
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

LOL. I know it is. I did something incredibly stupid in the North, splitting forces to go both East and North to "wrap around" Leningrad. As a result I didn't have enough force in either direction. In the South I circled the Pripyat marshes using far too many Panzer corps for the job and as a result I again had insufficient forces to drive East. I am tempted to start over - this was after all my first attempt at the game (don't we all just jump into the campaign?)



I restarted my German main campaign(normal) maybe a dozen times to the point where I have the first 5 turns mastered(my opinion). I'll run into organized Soviet defense at the Dnepr in the Center, Novgorod in the north and Zhitomir in the south around turn 3-4. On my current campaign it's turn 7 and the Soviets have 1.3 million total losses to my 139,000, and I'm about to close another large pocket at the gates of Kiev which will nearly wipe out all Soviet resistance on my side of the Dnepr in the south around Kiev.

I'd like to think I doing well and maybe you can compare with me to gauge how well you are doing. I never played past turn 20 yet, because I keep restarting every time I begin to understand something new about the rules...

There is another way to look at it though. Since this is your first campaign you might want to keep playing on and simply deal with the situation you are in. Not knowing what to expect adds another dimension to the game. After all, the Germans couldn't restart their campaign every time they experienced something that didn't go their way!


< Message edited by WilliePete -- 1/17/2011 6:30:18 PM >

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 9:36:10 PM   
Farfarer61

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I would play out the winter, then start over. You need to see it to understand it. It's actually better practice for PBEM, because you won't have Leningrad and Finnish Help, which is more realistic for PBEM.

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger......


Is it normal for the SU to always hold Leningrad in PBEM?

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Post #: 10
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 10:06:12 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I would play out the winter, then start over. You need to see it to understand it. It's actually better practice for PBEM, because you won't have Leningrad and Finnish Help, which is more realistic for PBEM.

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger......


Is it normal for the SU to always hold Leningrad in PBEM?



At the moment it appears that if a Soviet player wants to hold Leningrad, there is not a whole lot a German can do about it in 1941. It will remain to be seen if there is a way in a campaign for the German to make a Soviet pay for the overzealous defense of Leningrad, but right now it doesn't look the Germans have figured it out yet.

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 10:13:52 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I would play out the winter, then start over. You need to see it to understand it. It's actually better practice for PBEM, because you won't have Leningrad and Finnish Help, which is more realistic for PBEM.

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger......


Is it normal for the SU to always hold Leningrad in PBEM?



Nope my opponent did a right hook around lake ilmen and caught me flat footed. He cut me off and because of the isolation rules they all just eventually surrendered.

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 10:14:49 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Hehe maybe i wasn't overzealous enough in my defense. But I put it all south and southwest of ilmen. He came around ilmen blew through what i had in the bad terrain and in about 4 turns had it cut off. It was all down hill from that point.

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Post #: 13
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 10:17:54 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Oh to the OP i'd also play it out. That first winter really opens a lot of eyes. So take whatever the Ai does to you and at least 2-3x worse vs a real person. :) My first winter turn i cut off 3 german divisions. Prime divisions too. Thats 45k germans who won't be hurting me in summer 42.

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Post #: 14
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 11:05:12 PM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

It's turn 20 and I think I haven't made enough headway to succeed as the Germans.

They've suffered 2.098.024 million casualties to my 409802.
AGN stalled 30km south of Novgorod at Lake Ilman, and to the east at Lychkovo.
AGC is at Smolensk southward to just a couple clicks east of Gomel.
AGS it at Kiev southward to Nikolaev.

I' just feel I haven't taken any of my objectives, have no hope of taking Moscow or Leningrad, and am probably doomed to failure . . .

Is there a chance at recovery from such a ho-hum start?


IMO, no you are facing the worst to come. if you're only at t20.. then wait till blizzard hits at t25. Expect to lose 100k each week just from attrition loses for about the next 12 turns (might diminish a bit later) and that does NOT include any loses the sov units impose on you. Any units that are dug in will still be pushed back if the sov player applies any pressure.

FYI I had sov loses at 4 mil and 16k afvs while I had 500k and 2.3k afv loses starting t25. I took Leningrad BTW.

two turns later I'm at 800k loses and the sov units are blowing through my well rested, fortified, and supplied line.

I'd say your in deep deep trouble if you've only incurred 2 mil loses to sov player. You need to have it up to about 3-5 mil to have any chance against a decent sov player (AI or human).

But really IMO, if you don't get auto vic in 41, you'll probably have no chance of a victory.


< Message edited by abulbulian -- 1/17/2011 11:06:08 PM >

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/17/2011 11:48:54 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		[/quote]

But really IMO, if you don't get auto vic in 41, you'll probably have no chance of a victory.

[/quote]

I think these games are designed so that the Germans cant get auto victory, much the same as the Japanese always found it difficult in War in the Pacific.

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Post #: 16
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 3:18:31 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		I think the victory conditions in this game count. 
Even if you don't perform up to par in 41, I do believe that you can still put up a fight and not lose the game (at least a Draw).

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Post #: 17
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 2:53:59 PM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Hehe maybe i wasn't overzealous enough in my defense. But I put it all south and southwest of ilmen. He came around ilmen blew through what i had in the bad terrain and in about 4 turns had it cut off. It was all down hill from that point.

Lesson learned for all of us, I'm sure people will be more cautions of this maneuver from now on

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Post #: 18
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 3:47:59 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Of course ara also took a panzer army from central front to reinforce the north. So he threw a lot at me. :) But in reality in 41 i find it more that if a german player really wants something he's going to take it. And when i say really wants i mean he also commits the forces required to get the job done.

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Post #: 19
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 3:48:35 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Man the first year is very emotional on both sides. For the soviets its when you're being steam rolled. For the germans it's watching your army evaporate before your eyes.

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Post #: 20
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 4:02:57 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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quote:

But in reality in 41 i find it more that if a german player really wants something he's going to take it. And when i say really wants i mean he also commits the forces required to get the job done.


This is true, but it also shows one of the greatest aspects of this game, in that everything self-balances. The Axis can allocate the resources needed to get Leningrad, but those resources are not available to go for the Donbas cities and Rostov as well, and the population and resources here more than compensates for what may be lost in Leningrad.

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 4:37:51 PM   
bwheatley

 

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Joined: 12/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

But in reality in 41 i find it more that if a german player really wants something he's going to take it. And when i say really wants i mean he also commits the forces required to get the job done.


This is true, but it also shows one of the greatest aspects of this game, in that everything self-balances. The Axis can allocate the resources needed to get Leningrad, but those resources are not available to go for the Donbas cities and Rostov as well, and the population and resources here more than compensates for what may be lost in Leningrad.



I agree there if anyone ever gets the idea that i am unsatisfied with WITE it's quite the opposite. I find this game to be amazing. The balance aspects are very nice as well. Also for me it's going to be a bit harder now without leningrad and the damn finns are powerful but the finns manpower is not going to last forever. :)

Since my opponent took leningrad our line for winter was around kalinin north. Then about the dneper line. He had kharkov encircled come mud. But in the south he never took dnprevosk (sp) and i held him in the dnper line all the way down. So the crimea is safe with level 4 (almost 5) forts on every entry point. I have level 4 forts the first 3 hexes in. So that's going to be a hell of a slaughter house for germany. I've got a line of forts on the river west of rostov. I've got a few reserve u nits out by stalingrad building a line on the river there.

42 is going to be an interesting year.



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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 4:44:48 PM   
karonagames


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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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quote:

42 is going to be an interesting year.


That is a reasonable line in the South, but a strong thrust on Rostov in 1942 is going to undermine that, so I think the more you can push him away from Kharkov and Kalinin during the Winter, will determine just how "interesting" 1942 will be - sounds like a fun game.

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 5:04:22 PM   
Avenger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Man the first year is very emotional on both sides. For the soviets its when you're being steam rolled. For the germans it's watching your army evaporate before your eyes.


The first blizzard turn didn't really look all that bad until I opened up the TOE. I had all of my Tank divisions in cities and quite a few of my prime Infantry and Mech occupying Leningrad. I thought it would be fine. My units had been digging in for months. I had not attacked anyone since the snow started. I was well prepared, But I really wasn't. The Soviet player knocked me back every turn. My lines were too thin. The Blizzard was seriously harsh on my TOE.

I totally agree with you. A very emotional experience. A feeling of being helpless.

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Post #: 24
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 5:25:18 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

42 is going to be an interesting year.


That is a reasonable line in the South, but a strong thrust on Rostov in 1942 is going to undermine that, so I think the more you can push him away from Kharkov and Kalinin during the Winter, will determine just how "interesting" 1942 will be - sounds like a fun game.


Tonight will be t5 of blizzard blitz. I find it hard to make more then 1 or 2 hexes a turn because the bad morale of my units makes them refuse to go too deep into enemy zoc. I just recaptured kharkov (he gave it up without a fight so i wouldn't encircle him). My other biggest issue now is traffic jams. I have all these units bunched up so its hard to really get my heavy hitters to the front to fight. That and now more and more troops start or end their turn unready without combat. Guess winter takes it's toll on the russians as well to a lesser extent.

In the south i think i'm going good i have 2 cav corp their and i just broke the german main position. Now it's just a matter of routing those axis minors. I am hopeful of taking back to the kiev line as well. Though it's been a little TOO easy so i feel like a trap might be waiting. Let me take kiev area and then on the first snow turn have a few nice panzer armies come and make a kiev pocket version 2. :) So 2 turns before blizzard ends i think i might pull back and make a line.

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Post #: 25
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 6:30:30 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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quote:

So 2 turns before blizzard ends i think i might pull back and make a line.


I think some preparation for the March snow Axis resurgence will be necessary. It really depends on his morale - If he feels really battered he may not try too hard to recover lost ground. As Axis I usually go as hard as I can for those 3 snow turns.

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RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 7:26:41 PM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

So 2 turns before blizzard ends i think i might pull back and make a line.


I think some preparation for the March snow Axis resurgence will be necessary. It really depends on his morale - If he feels really battered he may not try too hard to recover lost ground. As Axis I usually go as hard as I can for those 3 snow turns.


Yea that's what i'm thinking. He was telling me his panzers are living up the winter away in cities. Drinking wine and chasing women. So i'm sure on the first turna fter snow i'll see a giant pocket if i'm not careful. This is really not a popeye eating his spinach advance either. The further into winter we go the more and more attacks i really need to hit hard with to dislodge the germans. And my troops are losing at least 2-3 guys per one of his deaths.

But i can afford to bleed my guys more then he can.

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Post #: 27
RE: Did I blow it? - 1/18/2011 9:16:36 PM   
Singleton Mosby


Posts: 47
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		I was in about the same position you are in at the end of the winter (against AI). During the winter I had been pushed back 5 to 10 hexes on the entire front. Contrary to most here I think you should play on through '42. I did and am having a great game. At the moment I am in turn 72 (late october '42) and dealt the Soviets some serious damage even though I have not taken any of the major objectives. Think it will end up in a draw if my summer '43 offensive (everything at Moscow) fails. At least I destroyed some 350 Soviets units during '42, as much as I destroyed in '41. Losses are now at 2,4m against 7m (the winter of '41 really hurts).

Whatever you choose to do, enjoy!

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Post #: 28
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