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PDU Off - 1/19/2011 9:33:23 PM

Cavalry Corp

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I think i started the game with PDU off?

Scn 2 PBEM

Please advise thoughts on this , have I made a big problem for myself as Japs?

CAV

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RE: PDU Off - 1/19/2011 9:52:35 PM

herwin

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You'll find you can't optimise your force by cancelling production of goblins and lesser orc models and instead focussing on nazgul production. Perhaps you lose something by doing that, but you get to experience the air war as it actually evolved.

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RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 6:52:27 AM

Reg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I think i started the game with PDU off?

Scn 2 PBEM

Please advise thoughts on this , have I made a big problem for myself as Japs?

CAV

Nothing that Japan didn't face in reality..... (if you can call Scn 2 reality)

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Post #: 3

RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 10:10:41 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I think i started the game with PDU off?

Scn 2 PBEM

Please advise thoughts on this , have I made a big problem for myself as Japs?

CAV

PDU off is quite limiting for both sides but has a much more historical feel.

I play the Japanese side exclusively and am currently in a game with BradfordKay with PDU off. With PDU off, Japanese production becomes pretty straight forward. There is no need to produce huge quantities of certain aircraft because you only have so many units that can use it. Upgrade paths are fixed and you can't deviate from them.

We are in Oct 42 and I still have about 50% of my IJA air force flying Nates. My front line units are flying Oscars but units in the Home Islands, China and Manchuria are still flying Nates. Some of these units only upgrade to aircraft that follows the Oscar so there is no way to upgrade those until the later aircraft comes on line. And some won't upgrade until late 1943 and early 1944.

All but one of my Navy air force units are flying A6M2s even though I have A6M3s available for some units to upgrade to. I have one unit flying A6M3s and have produced just enough to cover any losses and to allow units to upgrade one at a time to the A6M5 further down the road.

Bombers are even more limited. I'm still flying Nells because many of them don't upgrade to the G4M1 Betty but to later Betty variants and Peggys.

I like PDU off much, much more. No need to worry about a gazillion Corsair units rampaging wildly when they become available.

Chez

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Post #: 4

RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 5:34:24 PM

Cavalry Corp

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So sounds like it cuts both ways. But the Nate is prety horrible...

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Post #: 5

RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 7:53:32 PM

FatR

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For training, it does not matter. I'm playing with PDU ON, and units at Manchukuo and Home Islands mostly still are flying Nates, because I don't have Ki-43s to spare. This hopefully will change with Ki-44's availability.

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RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 8:02:34 PM

Canoerebel

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Man, Chez makes PDU Off sound like heaven. If we could combine PDU off with no pilot training, we'd have a game with a much more accurate feel that wouldn't be a clicky-clicky micromanagement hell.

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Post #: 7

RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 9:46:37 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Man, Chez makes PDU Off sound like heaven. If we could combine PDU off with no pilot training, we'd have a game with a much more accurate feel that wouldn't be a clicky-clicky micromanagement hell.

PDU off for the Allies is total handcuff time when you factor in fixed asset quantities.

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Post #: 8

RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 10:22:46 PM

Canoerebel

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You mean "total handcuff time" for Japan, right? PDU doesn't involve the Allies, does it?

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Post #: 9

RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 10:33:06 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

You mean "total handcuff time" for Japan, right? PDU doesn't involve the Allies, does it?

If it's on it's on for both. No free lunch.

When it's on, the plane list in the upgrade screen is still full of models, but everything but the upgrade path is in yellow, and gives you the data sheet. The upgrade alone is in green and can be chosen. The upgrade model is also defined in text above the list.

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Post #: 10

RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 10:48:29 PM

Canoerebel

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Moose, yer gonna think I'm a big dummy, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

As an Allied player (only), I don't mess around with production. I have a vague memory that in WitP you could set aircraft factories on or off, but that's about it. In AE, I know you have aircraft production facilities at places like San Diego, LA, Sydney, and Melbourne. You have the option of "upgrd" and "keep." I don't know what those mean, so I just leave them on default ("upgrd").

I've always labored under the belief that the Allies don't deal with production - that it's a Japanese-only item. Am I wrong? Have I overlooked an important part of the game? Am I embarrassing myself publicly here?

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Post #: 11

RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 11:11:14 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Moose, yer gonna think I'm a big dummy, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

As an Allied player (only), I don't mess around with production. I have a vague memory that in WitP you could set aircraft factories on or off, but that's about it. In AE, I know you have aircraft production facilities at places like San Diego, LA, Sydney, and Melbourne. You have the option of "upgrd" and "keep." I don't know what those mean, so I just leave them on default ("upgrd").

I've always labored under the belief that the Allies don't deal with production - that it's a Japanese-only item. Am I wrong? Have I overlooked an important part of the game? Am I embarrassing myself publicly here?

A little embarrassment, yeah.

Here's my shot at some for myself.

PDU is Player Defined Upgrades. It refers to the model upgrade path OUT IN THE AIR GROUPS THEMSELVES, not at the factories. So, with it, you have a choice of several/many to upgrade that P-40B to the next step. Sometimes it's one or two models, but as the war goes on it can be lots. You can also go backwards, and downgrade a unit into crates to free up some new metal for the pool and use at the front.

With PDU off you lose this. You get one model to upgrade to. If the pool is empty of that model you're out of luck. Wait. It makes the twiddling easier, but you lose a huge amount of flex as the Allies. If you run down your stocks of a popular plane, a plane which is the upgrade for a lot of other units, you're handcuffed.

I played PDU off in one WITP GC, and never tried it again. It seems unnatural after you've played with it on.

Easy to see if you'd like it. Ten minutes. Just launch a new Scenario 1 or 2 game with the switch Off in the set-up, and go around to your initial air units and see what choices you'd have and what you wouldn't. It gets much worse as the model pyramid grows.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/20/2011 11:14:22 PM >

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RE: PDU Off - 1/20/2011 11:46:00 PM

Canoerebel

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Thanks for the clarification. I know, of course, that I have the option to upgrade the aircraft in squadrons to a variety of other aircraft, though mostly I find that I seldom have enough aircraft in the pools to permit an upgrade. So, am I understanding you that PDU ON primarily gives players the ability to select from a variety of aircraft when upgrading?

That's not really what bothers me about the game, though. When I was reffering to PDU, I had in mind the ability of the Japanese player to accelerate production of aicraft. For instance, the ability to employ Tojos in mid 1942 in great numbers. In game engine language, what is the term for the ability of the IJ player to accelerate different aircraft and ships? That's what I'd prefer to do without.

By eliminating this ability, both IJA and Allies are restricted to historic timetables. Since the Allies have a critical shortage of aircraft, this will go a long way to eliminating the disparity, at least as I've seen it in Scenario Two.

So, when I was talking about "PDU Off," that's what I meant. Sounds like I was using the wrong term. What would be the right term?

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RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 12:20:01 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Thanks for the clarification.� I know, of course, that I have the option to upgrade the aircraft in�squadrons to a variety of other aircraft, though mostly I find that I seldom have enough aircraft in the pools to permit an upgrade.� So, am I understanding you that�PDU ON�primarily gives players the ability to select from a variety of aircraft when upgrading?

That's not really what bothers me about the game, though.� When I was reffering to PDU, I had in mind the ability of the Japanese player to accelerate production of aicraft.� For instance, the ability to employ Tojos in mid 1942 in great numbers. In game engine language, what is the term for the ability of the IJ player to accelerate different aircraft and ships?� That's what I'd prefer to do without.

By eliminating this ability,�both IJA and Allies are restricted to historic timetables.� Since the Allies have a critical shortage of aircraft, this will go a long way to eliminating the disparity, at least as I've seen it in Scenario Two.

So, when I was talking about "PDU Off,"�that's what I meant.� Sounds like I was using the wrong term.� What would be the right term?

I don't think there's a term for that. It would be at the player's discretion. There's no set-up switch.

With PDU Off (the reverse of what you're used to), the Japanese player is hamstrung too, but in a different way. He can produce uber amounts of any aircraft he can convert his factories to (say, the Tojo, early), but he can't force them into units that historically didn't use them. So he ends up with a big pile of unusable aircraft. That's why your reference (Charbroiled or Chaz, I can't recall) still had Nates all over the map. It's because those units flew Nates historically at that date.

PDU Off will more or less do what you're after. It prevents the Japanese from front-loading aircraft quality. It doesn't stop them from front-loading quantity, but it's quantity in perhaps less desirable aircraft models.

The problem is, to get this you have to have PDU Off for both players, and it whacks the Allies as badly or worse since they can't surge quantity, even of the dogs.

To restrict total Japanese production and leave the Allies alone, I don't know of a way except some complex HRs.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/21/2011 12:22:59 AM >

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RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 2:09:49 AM

Canoerebel

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If I understand this correctly, then, the ability of the Japanese player to accelerate research and production of more advanced aircraft is a locked feature of the game. It can't be "turned off."

Okay, thanks for the tutoring here, Bullwinkle. I was using the wrong terms and misunderstood the game engine in some respects.

(By the way, as Allied player I would gladly forego PDU if my opponent did also. The numbers in the Allied aircraft pools seem to be 1x, while the IJ aircraft pools are 20x. Changing those to 1/2x and 5x would be fine).

I've played two Scenario Two games (one to 8/45, the second currently at 10/42). I'm enjoying the game, but there are two things that really, really bother me: pilot training and the fact that Japan seems to have unlimited quality aircraft while the Allies have extremely few. I don't at all mind Japan having the extra ships, fuel, infantry, etc., but the air war does bother me).

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RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 3:31:10 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

With PDU Off (the reverse of what you're used to), the Japanese player is hamstrung too, but in a different way. He can produce uber amounts of any aircraft he can convert his factories to (say, the Tojo, early), but he can't force them into units that historically didn't use them. So he ends up with a big pile of unusable aircraft. That's why your reference (Charbroiled or Chaz, I can't recall) still had Nates all over the map. It's because those units flew Nates historically at that date.

PDU Off will more or less do what you're after. It prevents the Japanese from front-loading aircraft quality. It doesn't stop them from front-loading quantity, but it's quantity in perhaps less desirable aircraft models.

The problem is, to get this you have to have PDU Off for both players, and it whacks the Allies as badly or worse since they can't surge quantity, even of the dogs.

To restrict total Japanese production and leave the Allies alone, I don't know of a way except some complex HRs.

Personally I think it hamstrings the allied player more early in the war and then beginning around early 1943, it greatly hamstrings the Japanese player far more. I'll still be sending up A6Ms against Hellcats and Corsairs as they come on line.

Brad just surprised me last turn with his first P-38F fighter sweep. He shot down several A6M2s for only one ops loss. He says that he has only a couple units that fly it as yet (thank goodness) and the production is very low initially but as we move into 1943, his situation will improve whereas mine will remain stagnant. Sure I can replace losses (and I will have to) but I don't have the pilot pool to keep them manned with good experience pilots. Army units get new and better aircraft quicker such as the Tony and Tojo than the Navy but again most of my units will still be flying Nates and Oscars until I wind through each units upgrade path to get to more competitive aircraft.

We try to stay historical and PDU makes it easier to do so. It is not a great benefit otherwise. I would not recommend it for any one who wants to explore "what ifs" or play a bit more ahistorically.

Chez

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RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 6:20:40 AM

bradfordkay

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We're now in October 1942, so P38F production is over. I got a couple of planes less than the production rate suggested that I would get (but I have received a couple more F4s than the production rate suggested I would get, so I suppose that it balances out).

PDU off means that I have to carefully check the squadrons to see which ones I can upgrade to decent aircraft. The squadron that just performed the sweep had been a P39D squadron that first upgraded to P400 before the upgrade to P38F could occur. I could have upgraded it a month earlier if I had realized that, but I hadn't upgraded it to the P400s because I had a lot more P39Ds available. Since I have never opened the editor (I don't want to know about Chez' units) I have to practice upgrades first (save first, if the next upgrade isn't what I want I reload back to before the upgrade).

As the allied player, I don't have the problem that Chez has. I have far too many squadrons still flying Brewsters because I don't have enough better aircraft for them to use. I have several P38E squadrons, but they are permanently restricted to West Coast command bases (do you want to try a carrier sweep against the west coast, my friend?). The only time any of my 4E squadrons is at full strength is right after it upgrades. I still have B18 squadrons due to the lack of aircraft... but most of y'all are experiencing that as allied players even with PDU on. The difference is that I cannot switch the aircraft between the permanently restricted squadrons and those in the combat theaters the way you can with PDU on.

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RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 9:07:53 AM

toselli

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I am mostly a Japan player and I think that PDU off is equally limiting for both sides. It is true that Japan will not be able to upgrade all fighters to KI44 and all bombers to KI49IIA, but on the other hand the Allied player is not allowed to downgrade all the P38 units due to withdraw and go with an early change of crappy P40 with invincible P38s.

The only serious drawback you have with Japan is if you speed up production of your CVs in the build queue to have them in early 43. As some of them arrive equipped with planes, D4Y3 and A6M5B specifically, that you will not have in production until mid 1944 (unless greatly accellerated), you are left with no chance to replace plane losses for almost a year.

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RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 10:27:39 AM

Puhis

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PDU off does sounds interesting. I have to check that out.

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RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 11:23:29 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toselli

I am mostly a Japan player and I think that PDU off is equally limiting for both sides. It is true that Japan will not be able to upgrade all fighters to KI44 and all bombers to KI49IIA, but on the other hand the Allied player is not allowed to downgrade all the P38 units due to withdraw and go with an early change of crappy P40 with invincible P38s.

The only serious drawback you have with Japan is if you speed up production of your CVs in the build queue to have them in early 43. As some of them arrive equipped with planes, D4Y3 and A6M5B specifically, that you will not have in production until mid 1944 (unless greatly accellerated), you are left with no chance to replace plane losses for almost a year.

now that�s a serious drawback. First you spend a hell a lot of your HI to accellerate your carriers just to find out they aren�t much more than a one shot weapon if you lose the aircraft.

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RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 11:27:40 AM

cantona2

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Fletcher and I are playing PDU off in our Historical game and as an AFB I am enjoying the challenge of managing the different types. Having a good undersanding of the upgrade paths of your front line units is indispensable for PDU off to work. As bradfordkay says some units 'downgrade' on an upgrade before they can receive newr, better planes. TBH I love PDU off

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RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 4:53:30 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If I understand this correctly, then, the ability of the Japanese player to accelerate research and production of more advanced aircraft is a locked feature of the game. It can't be "turned off."

Okay, thanks for the tutoring here, Bullwinkle. I was using the wrong terms and misunderstood the game engine in some respects.

To extend this a bit, there IS an R&D switch in the set-ups. See Section 2.4.8. It is somewhat (minimally?) entwined with Japanese aircraft production capabilities, and could go a bit to addressing your concerns about an early uber Japanese air effort. I've never seen much discussion of that switch here; focus is usually on PDU On or Off.

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Post #: 22

RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 4:58:26 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Personally I think it hamstrings the allied player more early in the war and then beginning around early 1943, it greatly hamstrings the Japanese player far more. I'll still be sending up A6Ms against Hellcats and Corsairs as they come on line.

We try to stay historical and PDU makes it easier to do so. It is not a great benefit otherwise. I would not recommend it for any one who wants to explore "what ifs" or play a bit more ahistorically.

Chez

Interesting, but perhaps unsurprising. The Thunderbolt and Mustang -D model were exponential improvements over second-gen Allied fighters, while my perception of the Japanese progression is it was more linear in specification improvement. As fewer players have gotten or ever get to 1944 it might be more of a forum truism that PDU Off is a bad thing for the Allies. Endlessly re-playing 1942 in successive games might tend to skew perceptions.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/21/2011 5:03:37 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 5:02:09 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

The difference is that I cannot switch the aircraft between the permanently restricted squadrons and those in the combat theaters the way you can with PDU on.

I hear ya. Even in the late summer of 1943 I call my West Coast "The Dog Pound." Still flying Texans and Lancers as trainers last I looked. (Note to self--re-look SOON.) I think I ditched my last Bolos (doing ASW duty) around May 1943.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/21/2011 5:04:34 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: PDU Off - 1/21/2011 6:02:46 PM

herwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

The difference is that I cannot switch the aircraft between the permanently restricted squadrons and those in the combat theaters the way you can with PDU on.

I hear ya. Even in the late summer of 1943 I call my West Coast "The Dog Pound." Still flying Texans and Lancers as trainers last I looked. (Note to self--re-look SOON.) I think I ditched my last Bolos (doing ASW duty) around May 1943.