Ripppp-offf !!!!

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Ripppp-offf !!!!

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Ripppp-offf !!!!

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Ripppp-offf !!!! - 9/7/2002 10:38:25 AM

sdhundt

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline

This is a good game but what a RIP-OFF !!!! A game that costs $49 should have a **** rule book with the game. I found out after I bought the game that the rules were on the disk. Well that is BULL-**** !!!! With rules that are over 100 pages long most people read the rules away from the PC then play the game. It would have been nice to take the rules out of the house to read them when I had time. I shouldn't have to print up a 100+ page rule book. Does anyone else feel this way ?

Steven Hundt:mad: :mad:

Post #: 1

Re: Ripppp-offf !!!! - 9/7/2002 11:00:55 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sdhundt
[B]This is a good game but what a RIP-OFF !!!! A game that costs $49 should have a **** rule book with the game. I found out after I bought the game that the rules were on the disk. Well that is BULL-**** !!!! With rules that are over 100 pages long most people read the rules away from the PC then play the game. It would have been nice to take the rules out of the house to read them when I had time. I shouldn't have to print up a 100+ page rule book. Does anyone else feel this way ?

Steven Hundt:mad: :mad: [/B][/QUOTE]

Control yourself, you'll spurt. Matrix decided to put the player manual on the CD in order to avoid the expense not only of printing the manual but of shipping it in the bigger box that would have been necessary. It's all there. A cheap, easy way to get it printed is to copy-and-paste the manual to a floppy and take it to Kinko's or some such place to get it printed. Some guys on these forums have taken the file to work and printed it at their employer's expense (obviously, you want to make sure not to get into trouble with your boss).

Matrix estimates that the cost of the game would have been increased by $20 or more by inclusion of a printed manual, and, as this is a "niche market" where sales depend to a large extent on such non-esoteric concerns as price, they gave you the manual on the CD in hope of selling enough units that they could justify staying in business.

Please note that Matrix/2-by-3 are engaged in a dicey endeavor (in negative economic times, I might add) to bring us state-of-the-art war games for our computers. This is a unique effort, and seeks to regenerate the computer wargaming community that was in serious danger of falling off the edge of the world (if you have any doubt about the veracity of this, just review computer game releases of the late 1990s). If they fail, it's "civilization III, IV, V, and VI" and "Age of Empires Ripoffs Ad Infinitum" for life.

So print the manual. If you need to get creative to absorb the cost, so be it. By buying Uncommon Valor, you have supported, and joined, an effort to revitalize a genre of wargaming that was in danger of dying out. Play, and look at, the game and the exciting products that are now being developed. Please don't deprecate the only company in computer wargaming that is making a serious attempt at keeping the computer wargame alive. They have made a sensible, cost-saving decision in the interest of reducing price to encourage you to buy the product.

They're all we got, pal. Let's keep 'em alive and help 'em prosper, not for their benefit, but for our own. Look at their Web site and see what exciting products are being developed. I am begging for more!

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 2

- 9/7/2002 11:09:33 AM

Badger

Posts: 29
Joined: 8/16/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

Well said pasternakski!

I would have gladly paid another $20 to have printed manual with the game (hell, I probably would have paid $20 more for the game even without a manual, but dont let Matrix know that ;) ), but I know a lot of people would have been scared off with a $70 price tag. When a company like Matrix makes a great game like UV, we all need to do everything we can to make sure games like this continue to be made. Having to print my own manual is a small price to pay for that.

_____________________________

Liberals believe that the further a political philosophy is from reality, the more morally pure it is.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 3

- 9/7/2002 11:21:21 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Badger
[B]Well said pasternakski!

I would have gladly paid another $20 to have printed manual with the game (hell, I probably would have paid $20 more for the game even without a manual, but dont let Matrix know that ;) ), but I know a lot of people would have been scared off with a $70 price tag. When a company like Matrix makes a great game like UV, we all need to do everything we can to make sure games like this continue to be made. Having to print my own manual is a small price to pay for that. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yah, and you're right, pal. Just like backdoor women, we gotta pay 'em, but we gotta make 'em toe the line, too. Matrix/2-by-3: We want ya, but ya gotta put out on demand the way we wants it.

(Now, if THAT doesn't draw an "official" response, I don't know what will).

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 4

Re: Ripppp-offf !!!! - 9/7/2002 11:45:24 AM

bilbow

Posts: 741
Joined: 8/22/2002
From: Concord NH
Status: offline

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 5

- 9/7/2002 3:13:00 PM

Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: V�ster�s,Sweden
Status: offline

Hi

Lets just pretend that WITP comes out one year after UV was released. That would mean I have been playing a game for a year without even getting bored with the game. This has never happened before. Oh yeah what a ripp-off:rolleyes: I always start to play a game when I get it and only turn to a manual when I need it so having it on a computer works just fine for me.

Cant believe we are having this discussion again and I support Matrix 100%

Dan

_____________________________

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 6

- 9/7/2002 3:40:03 PM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

Alt-Tab will solve all of your problems.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 7

- 9/7/2002 6:57:29 PM

Banquet

Posts: 1184
Joined: 8/23/2002
From: England
Status: offline

Well as much as I love this game I do agree with sdhundt. Not that the game's a rip off - the money I paid for UV is some of the best money I've spent. But I am getting peaved with the amount of publishers/software companies putting the manual on the cd.

I don't like reading manuals on the pc screen and as much as I try to get used to it, I never will.. I like to read them in bed, in the bath, on the toilet.. I like to sneak the manual in to work, read it at lunchtime, etc,etc.

Yes, I could print the manual, but then I end up with 130 odd pages of A4 that are always getting out of shape, getting out of order, pages dropping out, using up a lot more space than a regular manual would.. there's no easy way to store all the "old" manuals that I printed for previous games and they end up getting thrown away by my girlfriend after she trips over another pile of printouts..

I understand why Matrix did it, and in their case (as a small company) it's justified but I would like to see companies forces to state on the box whether there's a "proper" manual because often I just wouldn't bother buying a game if there wasn't a paper manual.

One of my greatest gaming moments is opening a box and seeing a huge bloody manual full of info, facts, charts and historical info.. something you can pour over for years to come - I nearly wet myself when I saw the Falcon4 manual.. 600 plus pages!!

Sadly those days seem to be coming to an end.

Sorry fot the rant.. back to UV :)

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 8

Re: Ripppp-offf !!!! - 9/7/2002 7:38:59 PM

bckays

Posts: 13
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline

I understand why they didn't include a manual, but wish that we'd at least have an option of ordering it from Matrix.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 9

- 9/7/2002 7:45:07 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

Remember the days when most games had incomplete rule books of just a few pages,(with absolutely *no* designer notes nor follow-up of any kind?)...I just glad Matrix prevented the death of the real computer wargame in a less than friendly environment for same.....Everybody else is hitting the bricks or selling out to "Kenner toys"(or some such nonsense)...Now THAT'S BS in a big way..Matrix put the manual on the cd and made it clear(when announced) that the manual was going to be on the cd..BTW,Matrix was not the pioneer at this,but they have always gone out of their way to update AND SUPPORT their products AND player/customers by PROVIDING this great forum FOR ALL OF US.....:confused:

_____________________________

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 10

- 9/7/2002 9:16:41 PM

Point Luck

Posts: 318
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: East Coast-US
Status: offline

I also agree with Pasternakski

Having the manual on the CD is far less a handicap than not having a quality product. I printed the manaul out as soon as I got the game. I used the ALt-Tab method until I understood the game. and using the search feature off the CD made looking for specific information much easier than reading through the whole manual.

There very few really enjoyable games out there that cover this type a gaming and to attack one of the better companies because of some minor inconvenience is ludicrous. Granted there are features of the game that I wouldn't mind seeing changed or added, but with or without these changes Matrix & 2 by 3 will still retain my loyalty as a customer. Please continue on your current course of good product design and customer serivce and I will continue to purchase your products.

The fifty dollar cost is a fair and competive price for a game of this caliber. Factor in the long hours of play time I have already logged and add the tremendous customer support provided, anyone who feels the need to complain must be capable of producing a better product. In which case I would be more than willing spend my dollars there. But to date I haven't seen anyone step up to the plate and deliver a equal product or customer support as these people.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 11

- 9/7/2002 9:40:48 PM

Mark W Carver

Posts: 83
Joined: 4/26/2002
From: South-central PA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Point Luck
[B]I also agree with Pasternakski

Having the manual on the CD is far less a handicap than not having a quality product. I printed the manaul out as soon as I got the game. I used the ALt-Tab method until I understood the game. and using the search feature off the CD made looking for specific information much easier than reading through the whole manual.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I had my manual printed at one of the office stores, had them punch 3 holes in the pages and bought a 3-ring binder all for less than $10. With that said... I've used the online manual 95% of the time BECAUSE of the ability to do the search function that is in the online manual. Instead of me looking, and looking in the manual for something. Just bring up the search function, type a few keywords, and ta-da.

And no I don't think it's a big ripoff of no printed manual in the game. They can do the same thing for WITP.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 12

PDF Manual - 9/7/2002 10:06:40 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

I don't mind the PDF manual at all. Alt tab works great, and if updates to the manual/errata are needed, it's a simple task for the developers. With a printed manual, what was once a nice extra now becomes out of date.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 13

- 9/7/2002 10:44:41 PM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline

I prefer a printed manual if possible. It wasn't so no big deal.

Yeah I like to bring the manual around too. Bathroom, bed, couch etc are a nice plus but not necessary for me to come here and bitc'h because the game didn't have it.

I printed out the online one and read it for a good couple days and honestly havent touched it since.

So in the end, it's really not such a big deal as having to come here and blow a gasket over it.

Reiryc

_____________________________

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 14

- 9/8/2002 2:46:32 AM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

Having to print one's own manual is a small price to pay for helping Matrix and 2b3 remain a viable company, without which, we will not see the future games we are all mostly salivating over.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 15

Bottom Line - 9/8/2002 3:30:26 AM

SwampYankee68

Posts: 1186
Joined: 5/8/2002
From: Connecticut, U.S.
Status: offline

Bottom line is that we're such a small market, we have to accept things like printing out our own manuals if we don't want to ALT-TAB during a game. Given the choice, I'd prefer printed, but at least with the PDF you get updates as well, so no running around with a manual and a set of addendums (which you'd have to print out anyway). If putting the manual on PDF makes it possible for Matrix to put more money into upcoming projects, then I'm all for it. They don't have the resources of Blizzard or EA. Besides, once you get the game mechanics down, you only refer to the manual when a question comes up, and the ALT-TABing is perfect for that. I am quite sure you'll end up more than pleased about your purchase.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 16

- 9/8/2002 3:36:17 AM

Mojo

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline

Real men don't need no steenking manual anymore than we need the instructions to put together a bike.

If you think UV is a rip off because there's no manual you obviously didn't buy Divided Ground. Now that was a real waste of fundage.

Back on the Prozac there Steve. Didn't the doctor tell you that you shouldn't just stop taking them? You gotta taper off slowly.;)

_____________________________

If something's not working you might want to tunk it a dite.
Mojo's Mom

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 17

- 9/8/2002 7:23:52 AM

WW2'er

Posts: 177
Joined: 4/20/2000
From: East Dundee, IL, USA
Status: offline

Hey, I agree that not having a printed manual is not a big deal and I support Matrix 100%!!!, however.......

Perhaps there is a small lesson to be learned here. Perhaps Matrix should make it a little clearer that the game does not come with a printed manual. Nothing about that is said on the store site where the game is purchased. Nothing is said on the main page of UV. The only place it is mentioned is in one FAQ question on the UV FAQ page. So they do tell people, but it's pretty buried. Telling people clearly up front will lead to less people feeling "Ripped Off" later.

_____________________________

WW2'er

"That [state] which separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." � Thucydides, 'The Peloponnesian Wars'

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 18

Re: Bottom Line - 9/8/2002 11:08:18 AM

DSandberg

Posts: 107
Joined: 6/19/2002
From: MN
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swamp_Yankee
[B]Bottom line is that we're such a small market, we have to accept things like printing out our own manuals.[/B][/QUOTE]

Well said. It would be nice if things were different, but the truth is that serious, thoughful, turn-based wargames are simply not going to be coming from the major companies anymore. And it is also true that manufacturing a printed manual for a software program of any complexity is typically the largest single assembly-time expense of such software products by far (both the CD-ROM and the box are relatively cheap to manufacture).

Mind you, when major companies who are selling oodles of units still omit including a manual with their products in favor of a PDF, I think that's far less excusable. But Matrix is doing us all a great service by continuing to release tremendous offerings in a field that all of the big money companies have deserted, and I think that gracefully accepting the lack of a printed manual is the least we can do to thank them (along with actually purchasing the software, of course!).

- David

_____________________________

"... planning and preparations were made with great efforts with this day as a goal. Before this target day came, however, the tables had been turned around entirely and we are now forced to do our utmost to cope with the worst. Thi

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 19

Y'all's right - 9/8/2002 11:25:41 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

WW2'er has a good point, though. And I apologize to Mr. Hundt (if he's still reading this thread) if my previous comments were a bit harsh. The physical contents of games for sale should be listed on the store site for edification of those contemplating buying one.

Steve! Come back, Steve! We need you, Steve!

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 20

- 9/8/2002 4:14:52 PM

Ross Moorhouse

Posts: 2354
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

We are looking into Printed manuals for future games. I am not making a promise here but we do take in what you all say in.

_____________________________

Ross Moorhouse

Project Manager
www.csosimtek.com
Email: rossm@csogroup.org

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 21

- 9/9/2002 4:25:28 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ross Moorhouse
[B]We are looking into Printed manuals for future games. I am not making a promise here but we do take in what you all say in. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, Ross, if you're interested in another two cents worth, I am not in favor of printed manuals. I have several reasons:

Printed manuals add cost and add bulk, which increases shipping costs.

The online manual is searchable and scannable as an electronic document, which make it more utilitarian than a bulky paper job.

The online manual is printable, if that is what you prefer. As another poster has mentioned, you can take the PDF to Kinko's or whoever and get it printed for under ten bucks. Inclusion of a glossy printed manual would raise the price of the game more than this.

After awhile, you get familiar enough with the game that you seldom, if ever, refer to the manual, so eventually, it tends to sit around taking up space, anyway.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 22

- 9/9/2002 4:57:16 AM

David Heath

Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline

We are thinking of printing maybe a detail tutorial section and making the main manual PDF. We have also worked out a deal with Kinkos to provide printed manauls to those who want it.

David

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 23

not to sound to tree huggerish... - 9/9/2002 5:26:09 AM

doomonyou

Posts: 144
Joined: 6/26/2002
Status: offline

but its also good for the trees that we can print it if we want or not.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 24

- 9/9/2002 6:22:05 AM

Wilhammer

Posts: 449
Joined: 5/24/2002
From: Out in the Sticks of Rockingham County, North Caro
Status: offline

Other reasons for printed manuals:

1. If the manual is outstanding, it is like getting a book and a game in one shot.

To be a great manual, take a page from the great wargames of the past; give us Historical Notes, Rules, and extensive Designer and Player's Notes. Include a glossy paper map to hang on the wall.

For historical wargames, I really enjoy a well researched game with a well written book.

2. Piracy.

If the game comes with a book, it is damned hard to make pirate copies of the entire product.

Guys, you would not believe how easy it is to get games, NEW games, on the Internet as ripped downloads.

UV was available the day after it started shipping.

So many games are available the day after they ship, I have to wonder if the CD making factories are the repository of the day jobs for warez posters.

(Yes, my copy is legal :))

3. Tangibility of the product. Wow, a book! A tangible thing that has value on its own.

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 25

But . . . - 9/9/2002 7:34:13 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

But no manual has ever shipped without errors, mistakes and problems. Every game comes with a manual errata section in a readme file - and you never bother to read it until you're fed up with the manual.

A PDF file can be upgraded every time you patch - and always be up to date. As long as there is a paper quick reference card included I'm happy with the e-manual.

Also means that poor sods who are drooling and salivating for the game but haven't got it yet can appear on the forum and beg for someone to email it to them so they can get a partial fix. You can't do that paper-wise.

My vote is still for PDF.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 26

- 9/9/2002 7:57:31 AM

Yamamoto

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline

One of the best manuals I ever got with a game was the one that came with "Red Baron" by Dynamix. It included tons of historical material about the air war from 1914-1918. I also know two people who bought the game instead of copying it just because they wanted the manual. It was also a great game, by the way.

Yamamoto

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 27

- 9/9/2002 8:39:54 AM

Admiral DadMan

Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline

Printed Manual solution: "Add to Cart"

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 28

- 9/9/2002 9:07:56 AM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

I don't mind the PDF manual but I would like to see two things:

1. Make it a separate file on the CD.

2. Do NOT ship it with a password, it would be nice to be able to add my own notes( I have the complete Acrobat).

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 29

- 9/9/2002 9:14:31 AM

Admiral DadMan

Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nomad
[B]I don't mind the PDF manual but I would like to see two things:

2. Do NOT ship it with a password, it would be nice to be able to add my own notes( I have the complete Acrobat). [/B][/QUOTE]

or edit it to reflect the new rules...

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to sdhundt)

Post #: 30