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Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/20/2011 9:03:11 PM

abulbulian

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Just curious as to what human vs human games are out there and how far they have progressed.

I have a game as axis vs bwheately and we're going into the 34th turn which is 2nd week in Feb. I have been talking screenies of important stuff as to contribute it to the public, testors, and dev people for consumption later. We sacrifice an actual posted ARR for play speed, which is why we're so far along.

Some highlights lowlights:

- able to widely encircle Leningrad as my mobile units kept probing east for least possible resistance and met up with Fins by end of Aug. Don't think Bill was thinking I'd encircle so far east. I let most of them starve, but finally took Leningrad proper by Nov snow to release the Fins(hounds). Fins are beast in blizzard and have been hold my North front as far south as they can. Had to use 16th, 18th and PZ Grp 1, 3, and part of 2 in this operation.

- pulled armor from 2 and a half pz grps out of encirclement of Leningrad and made a mad dash to try and get a Smolensk pocket. With the help of Pz Grp 4 and 1 from south I was able to create a large Smolensk pocket of some 600k men. Was lucky and able to hold. Much to Bill's disappointment, many of his units surrendering and thus was able to keep loses light with only minimal attacks near last turns of pocket and prep'ing for mud.

- southern push stalled... left 11th army and Roms to fate and no push to get into Crimea. Got adjacent to Dnep. Before winter. Bill had units well dug in on approaches to Crimean. No way I was getting through any of that with the forces at hand,

- made attempt at a Kharkov pocket and was somewhat successful. Mud really hurt me, but in snow was able to complete pocket and take Kharkov. Only to lose in in few few turns of blizzard.

- loses by before Dec 41 Bliz started Axis: 500k and 2.3k tanks. Sov: 4 mil and 15k tanks

- I tried to prepare lines for winter in most places with some fortified zones (start on t16) and had some fort 3's thinking they would hold up a few turns blizzard.

- t25, first turn blizzard and the axis nightmare starts. Even with fort positions, rested units, good supply lines, and well supplied units I was pushed back almost everywhere by my opponent. Had 3 strong inf div encircled on 1st turn bliz and watch in horror as their CV went to 1 on next turn bliz and 35k strong surrendered.

- blizzard is very a bit harsher then should be IMO for axis, I really believe attack should be penalized heavy for axis, but def should not be as bad for units that are prep'd. As it stands, a smart human opponent will have no problem shattering any line you put out there.

- Finally to turn 34 and few bliz turns left. Been retreating for past 9 turns in most sectors... Fins holding just fine

. Still have many hexes in front of Leningtad, but middle is back to Smolensk, Gommel. South is back to Kiev and Nickolov. So bad in south.

- after t33 loses were: Axis 1.6 mil and 2.8k tanks Sov: 4.6mil and 18k tanks

** not sure what sort of shape my army will be in to start spring 42. I have about 1mil disabled listed so hoping even at the 1% return, my lines fill up a bit. I know 42 will be limited offensive time and I'll have to reduce TOE in the non-active sector.

BTW: motor pool was a bit low in bliz, but not by anything critical. About 138(140) now, as I about right on all my rail lines after being pushed back.

Anybody else got this far with a human vs human game? If people want to know more, just let us know. I know some ARRs that are out there, but non even to first winter.

I'll let Bill post more about his position. He's play a great game and without my luck with a few large pockets, he'd be ready to be in Poland by 42 ... hehe

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 1/20/2011 9:08:42 PM >

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/20/2011 9:15:16 PM

bwheatley

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In our game i'll check later. But i know during the winter blitz i've lost a ton of men as russia. But it's worth it. :)

My biggest initial issue with the winter blitz was the traffic jam trying to get all my units to the front. 5 Turns before winter blitz ends i have 80% of my troops holding the line in unready. So for folks who think it's all crazy pushing constantly i hate to say it's not. You get 1-3 turns of balls to the wall pushing but after that you'll notice your troops can't handle it.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/20/2011 9:23:47 PM

abulbulian

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FYI: my loses for blizzard starting on t25 were about 200k a turn for a few turns, then dropped to about 100k as I started avoiding getting pocketed and sov units could only attack in waves as they started to get fatigued and needed rested between turns. Last few turns t32, and t33 have been about 80k loses now.

So as it stands I started Dec with lower than historic loses: 500k. Which makes sense I as was able to conserve strength and my Smolensk pocket was a low risk clean up as most surrendered in 5-6 turns isolated.

But end of Jan I was at 1.5 mil loses which is a bit high now compared to historical.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/20/2011 9:47:58 PM

Joel Billings

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Great info thanks. I'm very interested in hearing of other 2 player games as they get through the first winter and approach the summer of 42. Very interested to hear how the Axis forces look when you get through spring 42.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/20/2011 11:02:33 PM

bwheatley

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Here are my t29 deaths for russia in our game.

I'll get more numbers when ara passes his turn over to me. My army is now even with all the winter losses at about 4.7 million ( i think) i'll verify when i get my turn.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 12:30:34 AM

bwheatley

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T35 Deaths

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 12:31:02 AM

bwheatley

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T35 OOB

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 12:34:09 AM

Flaviusx

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I'd say the Wehrmacht came out of this blizzard in pretty good shape.

The Red Army looks rather weak to me. 1942 is going to be very interesting.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 12:40:10 AM

abulbulian

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For armor, I was able to keep my mobile units warm and snuggly (in their snuggies

) in Cities and Urban. I did have a few motorized units in towns closer to the front to deal with a few pesky sov tank brigades. Also, in Feb a few armor units in approached cities had to make an attack or two to leading tired sov units.

You think I did better than the normal for play testing as far as men? Blizzard not over yet... few turns left.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 12:46:13 AM

Flaviusx

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If you can stay anywhere near 3 million, that's solid, and you'll be getting back an extra 10,000 men a turn with the disabled pool as large as it is.

The afv numbers are also quite good. (Admittedly, the German can actually afford to lose a lot of armor in 1941, because its mostly obsolete stuff.)

My own benchmark figure for the Red Army is 6-6.5 million, and the Red Army is well below that. The afv holdings are very small, practically the same size as the Germans. He's got a lot of threadbare tank brigades, evidently. Those tank corps are going to be a long time coming.

His air force is huge, though. Then again, the Luftwaffe is quite healthy itself.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 12:47:30 AM

abulbulian

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One of the things that is very ALARMING is the Sov air force. Even though I had a great t1 and destroyed 6k airplanes... did you see the OOB?

Sov already have 12k planes in Feb 42. WTF, that means by June, 42 maybe 18-20k? Which is crazy!! Also, means in 1942 sov will have air superiority. Even the 42-45 campaign that starts in June has the sov air force at around 6k.

How can they get 3x more planes than historical? To me this seems to be a very serious issue in the game. Not sure how this will play out in 42, but scared straight about any chances for a successful attack anywhere on the front without any air superiority.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 1/21/2011 12:49:32 AM >

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 12:51:16 AM

raizer

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this is a great thread. I cant wait to see the storms come at you in the spring

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 12:54:12 AM

Flaviusx

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Heh. You are underestimating the luftwaffe here, which is itself in good shape.

Bear in mind that several thousand of those Red Air force planes are biplanes. He probably hasn't gotten rid of all his obsolete prewar stuff, either. It's not all Yaks and shturmoviks on the other side.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 12:54:35 AM

ComradeP

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The problems with the air model translate to a huge VVS as air to air losses are minimal. Of course, Luftwaffe losses are also lower, but they still have a limited production. Many of those Soviet planes will be rubbish, though, and the Soviet pilots will probably be mediocre.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 1:00:04 AM

raizer

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yah but he can "waste" all those bi planes by just using them and that will attrit the germans...course maybe bw has a hidden horde of ils

but this is a good thread because advanced pbem games against 2 competent opponents are what I want to see

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 1:00:40 AM

abulbulian

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Ok thanks for cheering me up a bit.

Going through already 10 turns of blizzard really saps the axis player's moral...

I think blizzard should be very tough for axis units especially any that are silly to attack with out rest and maybe from a city or Urban if necessary. But, I think units defending in well prepared positions and good supply and supply lines are treated with indifference with WitE game mechanics. IMO this is very bad and unhistorical. Since I had an easy time of the Smolensk pocket.. most sov units surrendered without a fight. Many of my units holding the from had high TOE % (80+) and were well rested. But in the 1st turn of blizzard sov attacks still ripped through most of these units. By t3 of blizzard no unit could hold and if you don't evac a city and get surrounded.. lets just say isolated units get the harshest penalties and won't last more than a few turns if attacked (expect CV display of 1).

I guess we'll see if my low # planes, 4k, can wrestle air superiority from these 18k sov planes in 42.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 1/21/2011 1:01:31 AM >

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 2:17:56 AM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'd say the Wehrmacht came out of this blizzard in pretty good shape.

The Red Army looks rather weak to me. 1942 is going to be very interesting.

Yea i lost a lot of divisions before winter due to encirclements. And the isolation stuff that i really dislike a lot. :)

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 2:19:31 AM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

One of the things that is very ALARMING is the Sov air force. Even though I had a great t1 and destroyed 6k airplanes... did you see the OOB?

Sov already have 12k planes in Feb 42. WTF, that means by June, 42 maybe 18-20k? Which is crazy!! Also, means in 1942 sov will have air superiority. Even the 42-45 campaign that starts in June has the sov air force at around 6k.

How can they get 3x more planes than historical? To me this seems to be a very serious issue in the game. Not sure how this will play out in 42, but scared straight about any chances for a successful attack anywhere on the front without any air superiority.

Dude we have so many planes both because air is broken. So neither of us really do much of it.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 2:20:24 AM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Heh. You are underestimating the luftwaffe here, which is itself in good shape.

Bear in mind that several thousand of those Red Air force planes are biplanes. He probably hasn't gotten rid of all his obsolete prewar stuff, either. It's not all Yaks and shturmoviks on the other side.

I've managed to upgrade probably 50% to yaks and decent planes. But yea still plenty of biplanes. I wish there was a throw this **** away option so i could harvest for scrap metal :).

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 2:21:05 AM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

yah but he can "waste" all those bi planes by just using them and that will attrit the germans...course maybe bw has a hidden horde of ils

but this is a good thread because advanced pbem games against 2 competent opponents are what I want to see

Heh based on what flav said of my army maybe i'm not "competent" but i'm having fun.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 2:21:58 AM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Ok thanks for cheering me up a bit.

Going through already 10 turns of blizzard really saps the axis player's moral...

I think blizzard should be very tough for axis units especially any that are silly to attack with out rest and maybe from a city or Urban if necessary. But, I think units defending in well prepared positions and good supply and supply lines are treated with indifference with WitE game mechanics. IMO this is very bad and unhistorical. Since I had an easy time of the Smolensk pocket.. most sov units surrendered without a fight. Many of my units holding the from had high TOE % (80+) and were well rested. But in the 1st turn of blizzard sov attacks still ripped through most of these units. By t3 of blizzard no unit could hold and if you don't evac a city and get surrounded.. lets just say isolated units get the harshest penalties and won't last more than a few turns if attacked (expect CV display of 1).

I guess we'll see if my low # planes, 4k, can wrestle air superiority from these 18k sov planes in 42.

Yea don't get me started on the isolation stuff. Having 750k guys surrender without you having to fire a shot really burns my ass.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 2:43:35 AM

bwheatley

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Question for you flav or another tester how come i have 535 T34's sitting in my pool? Do they take awhile to divy out? All my dang tank brigades are missing their complement of t34's while they sit in holding.

The save is on the slitherine server bwheatley & abul is the game (where i'm soviets) if you guys need to take a peek.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 2:57:39 AM

bwheatley

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Oh looks like i might need to get them to a railhead to get them to soak up tanks ;). Guess i know what i'm doing during mud.

And my line from north to south is 2 (some places 3) hexes deep with units. So hopefully that will slow down the german tank encirclements from now on.

I also have 3 floating armies with 12 divisions each in the backfield.

I pulled all 8 of my new guard divisions out of the line and they are formed up as their own army. During mud i will transition them to be underneath a shock army to help them even more. I'm hoping since they are guard they will have 10 morale and then another +5 because of being in a shock army. Is that the case? if so that will make them as potent as SS troops and much more concentrated. :)

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 2:58:16 AM

raizer

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yah I think 550 t34s sitting in the pool is a problem...some bean counter working back in moscow needs to be put up against a wall and shot

maybe its a plus-build some fresh tank brigades then from them up into tank XXX

< Message edited by raizer -- 1/21/2011 3:03:44 AM >

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 3:58:04 AM

Flaviusx

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Having them in the pool right now isn't so bad, tank brigades suck anyhow, nice to have something in the kitty when you begin building up tank corps.

And you can raise some tank battalion SUs with this, too. I like to attach one of those to each mobile corps. The early 42 tank corps TOE is pretty bad and can use the extra afvs.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 4:04:27 AM

jomni

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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

yah I think 550 t34s sitting in the pool is a problem...some bean counter working back in moscow needs to be put up against a wall and shot

maybe its a plus-build some fresh tank brigades then from them up into tank XXX

Yes. I see this as an opportunity to build more tank battalion SU's to beef up my other units if they don't trickle down to the Tank Brigades. I also attach one directly to cavalry corps to give them more punch.
I'm in Jan 42 and the Tank Brigrades TOE are light-tank heavy. In my case, most of these aren't filled or at 0% TOE. Production of light tanks is not keeping up to the destruction.

< Message edited by jomni -- 1/21/2011 4:05:11 AM >

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 5:17:14 AM

abulbulian

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A lot of those units that look like destroyed in bwheately's screen shot of lost axis units were fortified zones I disbanded before they would have just surrendered. I can estimate a total equivalent of 6-7 inf div that were trapped and then surrendered on attack. A few of those were Romanian.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 7:25:14 AM

randallw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Oh looks like i might need to get them to a railhead to get them to soak up tanks ;). Guess i know what i'm doing during mud.

And my line from north to south is 2 (some places 3) hexes deep with units. So hopefully that will slow down the german tank encirclements from now on.

I also have 3 floating armies with 12 divisions each in the backfield.

I pulled all 8 of my new guard divisions out of the line and they are formed up as their own army. During mud i will transition them to be underneath a shock army to help them even more. I'm hoping since they are guard they will have 10 morale and then another +5 because of being in a shock army. Is that the case? if so that will make them as potent as SS troops and much more concentrated. :)

Morale is important, but experience ratings are still important, and those Guard units will need time for the experience numbers to creep close to what the Germans have.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 6:25:11 PM

bwheatley

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T39 i'm spending a lot of AP to upgrade all my old I* planes to either migs/yaks/laggs or il2's.

No winter german blitz. It appears my opponent is husbanding his strength until after mud. Good for me time to build forts. Hopefully this will slow the german monster down.

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RE: Current Human vs Human 41 campaign games - 1/21/2011 6:29:52 PM

Flaviusx

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Don't go overboard with airplane upgrades. This is a nearly bottomless pit for APs, and you've got huge expenditures coming in 1942. You should be thinking ahead and trying to bank APs for corps conversions.

The only airplane upgrades I ever do is to shturmoviks from U2Vs and the I15bis bomber groups. Don't bother wasting APs on upgrading fighters, the AI can handle that job reasonably well for free. This is why its a pretty good idea to throw in your obsolete fighters into combat and let them get hammered in 1941: it runs down the replacement pool on obsolete models and the automated system will respond accordingly, switching those groups to newer models gratis. The Luftwaffe is your silent partner here, they need to kill thousands of I16s and whatnot and clear the decks.

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