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RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 12:32:50 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

Ever seen an under paid accountant*??? (I can say that because my brother is one )

(*Disclaimer: must be working for a company with lots of cash to be creative with...)



Hopefully not the GFU. I'm expecting her to start earning $500 an hour so I can enjoy the finer things in life.

_____________________________

"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 3751
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 1:41:02 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Speaking of billable hours, an anesthesiologist told me this story. He was monitoring (after having adminstered spinal or epidural anesthesia...shot in the back..numb below the waist kind of thing with the patient alert) during surgery. The pt. is a lawyer and the anesthesiologist is stuck up behind the surgical drape near the pt's head. Naturally, they start gabbing. Pretty soon they are talking about retirememt "vehicles" which is what the atty. does. The surgery goes well and a week later the doc gets a bill for a 45 minute consultation along with some documents and a charge for copying.

(in reply to Onime No Kyo)
Post #: 3752
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 2:15:12 PM   
Itdepends

 

Posts: 937
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline 		His mistake was letting the lawyer wake up (yes I know he wasn't fully under- another mistake..........)

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 3753
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 5:06:43 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

His mistake was letting the lawyer wake up (yes I know he wasn't fully under- another mistake..........)


I like your idea. It has merit. Are you in agreement with Dick the Butcher or are you calling for a selective culling of the herd?


There may be certain "legal" obstacles.


< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 1/31/2011 5:07:31 PM >

(in reply to Itdepends)
Post #: 3754
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 5:12:20 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Selective?

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 3755
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 5:36:16 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Selective?


Do you really want to get rid of half the Congress?*






*It's a big hanging curve ball

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 3756
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 5:42:01 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
*It's a big hanging curve ball


I hear that they can correct this sort of thing with surgery nowadays.


_____________________________


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Post #: 3757
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 6:09:49 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
*It's a big hanging curve ball


I hear that they can correct this sort of thing with surgery nowadays.



No thanks..rather a source of pride, actually.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 3758
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 7:23:23 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Don't think so... maybe the top 0.2%...

The top 2% (in the USA) make 250+K/year, divided by (say) 40 hours/week, working (say) 48 weeks comes out to about $130/hour... of course, most people getting that much aren't just working 40 hours/week, so it probably is closer to $100/hour... $540/hour is about 5x that.


Well, not going to defend this steep rate, but I think it is a common mistake to compare what an employee *earns/makes* to what someone who is self-employed *bills*. There are expenses involved in running a business, and overhead processes make it unlikely that each hour of said attorney's working day can be billed.

If you want to arrive at outrageous hourly wages, use a hospital bill for a 4 hour surgery to calculate what the surgeon supposedly makes per hour. The surgeons will tell you that they make much less money per hour, and the difference is not equal to profit of the hospital operator either.

Just my 2cts.

Hartwig

There is a WORLD of difference between how doctors get paid and how lawyers get paid... the doctors rates are "negotiated" and set by insurance companies, the government, etc. Not so lawyers (for the most part).

If you negotiate to pay a lawyer $500+ an hour, well, that's what you will end up paying, most likely. If a surgeon bills you $20,000 for an operation, he may end up with 1/10th that (or less).

EDIT: Admittedly, the lawyer will have some expenses, but i am willing to bet they are not $400/hour.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 1/31/2011 7:25:06 PM >

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 3759
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 8:24:35 PM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		rtrapasso,

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
There is a WORLD of difference between how doctors get paid and how lawyers get paid... the doctors rates are "negotiated" and set by insurance companies, the government, etc. Not so lawyers (for the most part).


Well... probably depends on the country. In Germany, I would say there is a world of difference between how doctors/lawyers and doctors/lawyers get paid.

Here, there are doctors - especially radiologists - that can easily compete with or beat a lawyer who charges a high price per hour. There are lawyers (the ones whose clients can only afford to pay according to the RVG, a German law setting standard attorney fees as a function of the value of the case, not the time spent on it - of course, your client can agree to pay more, but that means he really wants that lawyer) who make significantly less than a general practicioner, set rates and all.

quote:


If you negotiate to pay a lawyer $500+ an hour, well, that's what you will end up paying, most likely. If a surgeon bills you $20,000 for an operation, he may end up with 1/10th that (or less).


I guess less. But that is exactly my point - from the bill, it is difficult to derive what the person gets, and that is what is being done here.

quote:


EDIT: Admittedly, the lawyer will have some expenses, but i am willing to bet they are not $400/hour.


Well, of course this lawyer is most likely not a poor man, and as I said at the beginning of my post - I am not going to defend the high rate or claim that it is reasonable that the market will pay that price. At the same time, I am still not comfortable with the "per billed hour" assessment of expenses (which, btw, grow with the fee you charge). If you run your own business (at least with lower hourly fees) you usually are quite aware of the number of hours you have to bill before your expenses are met and you start making money. That makes you a bit sensitive if people tend to assume they can calculate your income by multiplying the hourly fee you charge with 40-50 hours per week.

Hartwig

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 3760
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 8:38:10 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow

rtrapasso,

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
There is a WORLD of difference between how doctors get paid and how lawyers get paid... the doctors rates are "negotiated" and set by insurance companies, the government, etc. Not so lawyers (for the most part).


Well... probably depends on the country. In Germany, I would say there is a world of difference between how doctors/lawyers and doctors/lawyers get paid.

Here, there are doctors - especially radiologists - that can easily compete with or beat a lawyer who charges a high price per hour. There are lawyers (the ones whose clients can only afford to pay according to the RVG, a German law setting standard attorney fees as a function of the value of the case, not the time spent on it - of course, your client can agree to pay more, but that means he really wants that lawyer) who make significantly less than a general practicioner, set rates and all.

quote:


If you negotiate to pay a lawyer $500+ an hour, well, that's what you will end up paying, most likely. If a surgeon bills you $20,000 for an operation, he may end up with 1/10th that (or less).


I guess less. But that is exactly my point - from the bill, it is difficult to derive what the person gets, and that is what is being done here.

quote:


EDIT: Admittedly, the lawyer will have some expenses, but i am willing to bet they are not $400/hour.


Well, of course this lawyer is most likely not a poor man, and as I said at the beginning of my post - I am not going to defend the high rate or claim that it is reasonable that the market will pay that price. At the same time, I am still not comfortable with the "per billed hour" assessment of expenses (which, btw, grow with the fee you charge). If you run your own business (at least with lower hourly fees) you usually are quite aware of the number of hours you have to bill before your expenses are met and you start making money. That makes you a bit sensitive if people tend to assume they can calculate your income by multiplying the hourly fee you charge with 40-50 hours per week.

Hartwig

Maybe things are different in Germany, however, Mandrake is in California... here doctor's fees are set by various agencies.

Lawyers fees (unless you are doing public defender cases, etc.) are not (afaik). $500+ an hour is more than anything i've ever heard of outside of high-profile corporate law, and that is the rate for the company, not the lawyer (which he made a point of saying was not the case, iirc - addition $100+ an hour for paralegals, etc).

Possibly this guy is a "one off", but if he is charging $500+ an hour, he is almost definitely off the chart in being a lot higher than in the 2% top percentile. More like 0.1 - 0.2%

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 3761
RE: how to treat a lady - 1/31/2011 8:52:51 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Depending on the case, jurisdiction, etc., the attornies may also have to prove up their fees and expenses. As such they are subject to local guidlines on allowable rates.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 3762
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 2:17:58 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Depending on the case, jurisdiction, etc., the attornies may also have to prove up their fees and expenses. As such they are subject to local guidlines on allowable rates.

AFAIK - those are only related to the "percentages" that they can take in contingency trials, not what they can contract with you for as an hourly rate ...(again, unless it is a public defender, where the state/municipality pays for the lawyer directly).

Contingency fees will have little to do with hourly rates from what i understand.

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 3763
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 3:25:56 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		You're correct, there are caps on contingency fees. However, as an example of the above, in Probate Court in Dallas there are guidelines limiting hourly rates by years of experience/certification, etc. Those have to be proven up before being awarded and paid.

In any event, there's nothing to keep you from negotiating a hard cap to a fee agreement provided the service required can be easily defined (I need a will, poa, hpoa, etc.) or a negotiating his hourly rate. If he says no, find someone else.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 3764
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 4:29:51 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Can you negotiate a hard cap if you need a bureaucrat offed?

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 3765
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 4:36:40 PM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		What happened to the war?

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 3766
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 4:38:12 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Can you negotiate a hard cap if you need a bureaucrat offed?


Depends on what branch of the mob you are dealing with.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 3767
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 4:40:13 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

What happened to the war?

i think we are waiting for the WJD's to send a turn...

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 3768
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 4:49:41 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The WJD's sent a turn!


***********July 15, 1942***********

Fiji: More WJD sweeps over Suva but they are somewhat disorganized and the Marines and P-39's hold their own. Jap fighters were moved to Noumea after the succesful B-17 raid there. Intel suggests a CV in harbor at Noumea. Maybe, but I doubt it. Dangerous place to leave a CV. Enterprise headed Sydney for July upgrade. Replacement F4F's taken at Suva. There are no P-39's to be had. I will bring another 3/4 strength P-39 squadron from Pearl. This would be a good time to upgrade some P-40's to P-38's except the restricted squadrons in the US are hogging them all.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 2/1/2011 4:53:40 PM >

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 3769
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 5:34:43 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

You're correct, there are caps on contingency fees. However, as an example of the above, in Probate Court in Dallas there are guidelines limiting hourly rates by years of experience/certification, etc. Those have to be proven up before being awarded and paid.

In any event, there's nothing to keep you from negotiating a hard cap to a fee agreement provided the service required can be easily defined (I need a will, poa, hpoa, etc.) or a negotiating his hourly rate. If he says no, find someone else.


For attorneys, perhaps. For other 'contract' specialties, the only cap exists in the marketplace.

I've had the pleasure of being under contract for a multinational corporation working with the DOD in some capacity development issues abroad, back in the day. I got to name my own fees.

When the CPAs for the multinational balked at my stated rates, I rationalized it based upon my qualifications, their needs and my willingness to travel to some 'non-touristy' places. It raised some eyebrows, but went through regardless.

I have made no apologies for my seemingly usurious rates, nor will I now. If underachieving CEOs can make tens of millions $USD annually, someone with marketable and needed skills and experience should be able to dictate terms of their employment as the market would see fit to bear.

In the case of a HOAA attorney, I can't imagine the need for a $500/hr. attorney for goodness sake. Someone's not being fiduciarily responsible at the HOAA.

HOAA taxpayer revolt!

_____________________________


(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 3770
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 5:36:03 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The WJD's sent a turn!


***********July 15, 1942***********

Fiji: More WJD sweeps over Suva but they are somewhat disorganized and the Marines and P-39's hold their own. Jap fighters were moved to Noumea after the succesful B-17 raid there. Intel suggests a CV in harbor at Noumea. Maybe, but I doubt it. Dangerous place to leave a CV. Enterprise headed Sydney for July upgrade. Replacement F4F's taken at Suva. There are no P-39's to be had. I will bring another 3/4 strength P-39 squadron from Pearl. This would be a good time to upgrade some P-40's to P-38's except the restricted squadrons in the US are hogging them all.


Eh? Aren't you playing with PDU on? Can't you 'upgrade' those restricted squadrons to your crappola P-26s and P-43s?

_____________________________


(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 3771
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 5:38:30 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Depending on the case, jurisdiction, etc., the attornies may also have to prove up their fees and expenses. As such they are subject to local guidlines on allowable rates.

AFAIK - those are only related to the "percentages" that they can take in contingency trials, not what they can contract with you for as an hourly rate ...(again, unless it is a public defender, where the state/municipality pays for the lawyer directly).

Contingency fees will have little to do with hourly rates from what i understand.


I know of one case where (according to the client, grain of salt required) the contingency fee was for a certain %, say 25 or 30%. When the case was settled and the disputed real estate acquired, the attorney calculated his fee without considering the mortgage on the property so it came out to ~50%.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 3772
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 5:49:53 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

In the case of a HOAA attorney, I can't imagine the need for a $500/hr. attorney for goodness sake. Someone's not being fiduciarily responsible at the HOAA.



When I owned a condo in a 8-unit building we were all pretty much running the condo association. During one of my tours of keeping the books, dealing with miscellaneous crap, and holding a title, one of the owners was a frequent non-payer (the fee was like $110/month where in the area most fees were closer to mortgage payment size). This guy was so late we finally put a lien on the unit so he couldn't just walk out on the debt. Lo and behold, he tried to do just that. After getting his unit on the market, and selling it he discovered that he couldn't close with the lien in place, which I think was for less than $1,500. He sweet talked our attorney, who told me that he had promised to pay as soon as the closing was completed (within 3 days when funds cleared or whatever), and suggested we go ahead with it. I suggested that she loan him the money, which - strangely - she didn't!

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 3773
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 6:00:49 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The WJD's sent a turn!


***********July 15, 1942***********

Fiji: More WJD sweeps over Suva but they are somewhat disorganized and the Marines and P-39's hold their own. Jap fighters were moved to Noumea after the succesful B-17 raid there. Intel suggests a CV in harbor at Noumea. Maybe, but I doubt it. Dangerous place to leave a CV. Enterprise headed Sydney for July upgrade. Replacement F4F's taken at Suva. There are no P-39's to be had. I will bring another 3/4 strength P-39 squadron from Pearl. This would be a good time to upgrade some P-40's to P-38's except the restricted squadrons in the US are hogging them all.


Eh? Aren't you playing with PDU on? Can't you 'upgrade' those restricted squadrons to your crappola P-26s and P-43s?


Ummmmmmmmm????? Beats me. I have been trying to get rid of the P-26's but nobody wants them. I have P-43's in Seattle and Anchorage and even sent one squadron to the South Pacific for rear area use.

Here is what happens when I try to "upgrade" a restricted P-39 squdron to P-26's




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 3774
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 6:04:42 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		By ra way, the prospective atty. was for a corporate by-laws rewrite, not the HOA.

I have met the HOA atty. I we are paying that guy $540 an hr I will pass a brick.

(in reply to Onime No Kyo)
Post #: 3775
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 6:13:01 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		We have 36 x P-38's in San Francisico in restricted commands. They can't "upgrade" to anything, even P-39's. Instead, they are training and flying escort missions for the airships.

There are also 2 squadrons of P-43's in SF. Any restircted B-17 squadron that could be tricked into accepting Hudsons or B-18's has already done so.

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 2/1/2011 6:21:32 PM >

(in reply to Onime No Kyo)
Post #: 3776
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 6:27:22 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The WJD's sent a turn!


***********July 15, 1942***********

Fiji: More WJD sweeps over Suva but they are somewhat disorganized and the Marines and P-39's hold their own. Jap fighters were moved to Noumea after the succesful B-17 raid there. Intel suggests a CV in harbor at Noumea. Maybe, but I doubt it. Dangerous place to leave a CV. Enterprise headed Sydney for July upgrade. Replacement F4F's taken at Suva. There are no P-39's to be had. I will bring another 3/4 strength P-39 squadron from Pearl. This would be a good time to upgrade some P-40's to P-38's except the restricted squadrons in the US are hogging them all.


Eh? Aren't you playing with PDU on? Can't you 'upgrade' those restricted squadrons to your crappola P-26s and P-43s?


Ummmmmmmmm????? Beats me. I have been trying to get rid of the P-26's but nobody wants them. I have P-43's in Seattle and Anchorage and even sent one squadron to the South Pacific for rear area use.

Here is what happens when I try to "upgrade" a restricted P-39 squdron to P-26's




From the screen you show, you can't "upgrade" anything since you don't have 25 aircraft of any one type in the pool (unless i am misreading something)

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 3777
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 6:30:07 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

By ra way, the prospective atty. was for a corporate by-laws rewrite, not the HOA.

I have met the HOA atty. I we are paying that guy $540 an hr I will pass a brick.

OK - for corporate law $540/hour is not unheard of (but still seems, well, very steep, unless you are sending him to Afghanistan or something )...

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 3778
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 6:41:41 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The WJD's sent a turn!


***********July 15, 1942***********

Fiji: More WJD sweeps over Suva but they are somewhat disorganized and the Marines and P-39's hold their own. Jap fighters were moved to Noumea after the succesful B-17 raid there. Intel suggests a CV in harbor at Noumea. Maybe, but I doubt it. Dangerous place to leave a CV. Enterprise headed Sydney for July upgrade. Replacement F4F's taken at Suva. There are no P-39's to be had. I will bring another 3/4 strength P-39 squadron from Pearl. This would be a good time to upgrade some P-40's to P-38's except the restricted squadrons in the US are hogging them all.


Eh? Aren't you playing with PDU on? Can't you 'upgrade' those restricted squadrons to your crappola P-26s and P-43s?


Ummmmmmmmm????? Beats me. I have been trying to get rid of the P-26's but nobody wants them. I have P-43's in Seattle and Anchorage and even sent one squadron to the South Pacific for rear area use.

Here is what happens when I try to "upgrade" a restricted P-39 squdron to P-26's




From the screen you show, you can't "upgrade" anything since you don't have 25 aircraft of any one type in the pool (unless i am misreading something)


Yes, I believe that might explain why I cant convert to P-40E's in this example, but note that the P-26's are greyed out.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 3779
RE: how to treat a lady - 2/1/2011 6:44:25 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

By ra way, the prospective atty. was for a corporate by-laws rewrite, not the HOA.

I have met the HOA atty. I we are paying that guy $540 an hr I will pass a brick.

OK - for corporate law $540/hour is not unheard of (but still seems, well, very steep, unless you are sending him to Afghanistan or something )...


Well, maybe he is going to take one of the Waco gliders and let the Paralegals hit the silk. Those gliders always seemed more dangerous to me.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 3780
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