RE: 'A Space Port in each system'

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/3/2011 11:43:40 PM

Spacecadet
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I usually build a small spaceport at every planet (for multiple reasons) - eventually.

I don't build a spaceport until the planet is around 100M - 500M, depending on needs (exception being early game).
Remember, Population x Tax rate = Money.

Some reasons for building a Spaceport:

I've noticed that once your Empire starts to get pretty fair sized that resources don't seem to get picked at a planet level very often - this really hits on the Luxury side of things.

Spaceports are ship building centers.

Spaceports are refueling points.

Spaceports are Research centers.
I leave Labs in the design until I've completed the Tech tree, and then I do I redesign and rip them all out *(oddity observed) .

Spaceports augment defensive capabilities.

Spaceports provide Recon (Scanners).

Spaceports provide a means of introducing Medical and Recreation Happiness Bonuses.

For super rare, or even somewhat rare resources, I'll upgrade to a Medium Spaceport for added protection and dock throughput.

*(Oddity)
I've noticed that when I reduce the components/maintenance costs by removing Labs that my Cash Flow seems to drop after I replace the older versions - even though the new maintenance cost are lower.
Not sure if this is persistent or not, but it is note worthy.

(in reply to Data)

Post #: 31

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 12:08:16 AM

Apheirox
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quote:

There is more interesting stuff there but I didn't want to clutter the post. But indeed I think I got the wrong idea when reading about "Migration of your citizens from large colonies to smaller ones is a major factor in achieving fast growth of new colonies" -> you were correct.

If I'm correct and happiness doesn't speed up colony growth then I don't see why space ports should be built at every solar system. Which means we're back to the initial issue. Apparently, however, everybody IS indeed building them everywhere.

(in reply to Data)

Post #: 32

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 12:15:07 AM

Apheirox
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Overlooked something in Shark's post, post #4:

quote:

1. The port gives the medical/recreation bonus to the planet, which should be affecting growth rate.
2. Planets with ports are far less likely to revolt.
3. Each port increases bonus income, which is the reason I can have 2+ million cash on hand by end game.

Are you sure?

If they do indeed increase growth, they are definitely worth it. However, I don't see how it is feasible to have them everywhere unless you're designing your own 'discount' stripped versions - the default ones are just way too expensive in maintenance.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 33

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 12:51:44 AM

Tehlongone
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The only changes I make to the spacestation designs is take out the labs from the small one (and reduce defenses, to make it cheap), and make an additional stronger one meant for my homeworld.

I have to say, that in my experience as well as plain common sense: you should NOT initially build a spacestation in every single system. If you have a juicy homeworld, sure you can possibly afford it, especially in a small game or one with few colonizable worlds, but it doesn't make any sort of economic sense.

The stations should be built to form economic hotspots where the freighters go to dump the harvests from the low pop worlds, if there isn't a port nearby they'll fly to the closest one, which might take some time. Just take a look at the trade lines on the map, if they are too long, one makes another, or just allow the game to automatically make them with a certain spacing between.

The bonuses spaceports give are awesome for your economy, but ONLY if the planet in question actually generates income. New worlds generate roughly no income, there is some slight profit from trade taxes, but nothing near as much as maintenance. Besides if it is the bonuses you want, why not build them at every single colony instead of one per system?

Once a world reaches 500m I start to consider giving it a spaceport even if it isn't far away, but even then it's borderline economic waste.

(in reply to Data)

Post #: 34

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 1:05:35 AM

Spacecadet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apheirox

quote:

There is more interesting stuff there but I didn't want to clutter the post. But indeed I think I got the wrong idea when reading about "Migration of your citizens from large colonies to smaller ones is a major factor in achieving fast growth of new colonies" -> you were correct.

If I'm correct and happiness doesn't speed up colony growth then I don't see why space ports should be built at every solar system. Which means we're back to the initial issue. Apparently, however, everybody IS indeed building them everywhere.

Happiness does speed up colony growth.

The higher the Happiness, the higher the Population growth number will be.

If you are manually controlling your Tax rates you can experiment with this and see the results.
Take a high Pop planet that has 50% taxes and note the Happiness and the Growth rates.
Drop the tax rate for that planet to 40%, wait about a month, then recheck the Happiness and Growth rates.

The Happiness should show up almost immediately, but it takes a while to filter through to affect the Growth rate.

(in reply to Apheirox)

Post #: 35

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 1:19:26 AM

Tehlongone
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If you are building them for population growth then there is no reason to limit yourself to one per system, why not one on every colony, the bonus only applies to the particular planet that has the station after all.

If you set tax rates to 0% for all your new colonies they will grow very fast, getting the bonus from space ports doesn't seem to make any difference, if there is a difference it is small.

(in reply to Spacecadet)

Post #: 36

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 1:45:06 AM

Shark7
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apheirox

Overlooked something in Shark's post, post #4:

quote:

1. The port gives the medical/recreation bonus to the planet, which should be affecting growth rate.
2. Planets with ports are far less likely to revolt.
3. Each port increases bonus income, which is the reason I can have 2+ million cash on hand by end game.

Are you sure?

If they do indeed increase growth, they are definitely worth it. However, I don't see how it is feasible to have them everywhere unless you're designing your own 'discount' stripped versions - the default ones are just way too expensive in maintenance.

Makes the people happy, and happy people grow more quickly.

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(in reply to Apheirox)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 1:47:53 AM

Spacecadet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tehlongone

If you are building them for population growth then there is no reason to limit yourself to one per system, why not one on every colony, the bonus only applies to the particular planet that has the station after all.

If you set tax rates to 0% for all your new colonies they will grow very fast, getting the bonus from space ports doesn't seem to make any difference, if there is a difference it is small.

I need to look in on a game, but I'm thinking there's more of an impact than you're thinking.

Early game I'll build a Spaceport at a planet that has a Luxury that I need.
I don't trust Mines to supply my needs (Pirates / aggressive AI).
This will actually put you up quite a few Spaceports.

As the game progresses I'll want to have three or more Luxuries of the same type secured via Spaceports.
Now I'm really loading up on Spaceports.

As mentioned in the reasons at the top, this isn't really a bad thing.

All these Spaceports are building not only my Ships, but the Private sector ships (way more than I build).
These ports aid in the flow of resources and keep your Private sector busy and generating income.

(in reply to Tehlongone)

Post #: 38

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 9:18:59 AM

Data
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this needs to be tested in game as currently there is no info to support the fact tha happiness affects growth rate
afaik, happiness = approval so the only effect it has is on the possibility of rebellion. I also assumed that happiness would affect pop growth but I have no evidence of that....aside from Spacecadet testing which sounds very reasonable indeed. I hope it does work like this; the fact that Shark also confirms is quite enough for me.

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Post #: 39

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 9:41:09 AM

sbach2o
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I build a small space port on every planet, and larger ports on more important planets.

1. The port gives the medical/recreation bonus to the planet, which should be affecting growth rate.
2. Planets with ports are far less likely to revolt.
3. Each port increases bonus income, which is the reason I can have 2+ million cash on hand by end game.

This sums it up nicely.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Haree78

Has anyone cosidered when building a Large whether it is best to build a small then upgrade twice?

I typically wait for a colony to develop before I install a large space port. The need for a space port should arise much earlier when I, depending on the development potential of the colony and my economic status, will either start with a small or medium space port.

So most of my large ports come from upgrades. The ugly thing about this is that when upgrading to the next size class of space ports, the image of the installation often (but not always) doesn't adapt. So it goes...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apheirox

New question: You say one of the reasons to build the space ports is the morale boosting. But isn't boosting morale a moot point on newly founded colonies with 15M citizens? They provide exactly 0,0000001% of your income. All that matters are your main colonies, particularly capital. So, it doesn't really help increase revenue nor increase growth rate, since these colonies are max happy anyway?

I am not 100% certain of this, but having a space port may also encourage propulation growth, either directly or indirectly. I had the impression that the happiness of the colonists also factors into the growth rate, although that may be not the case and it is only tax rate (or a combination of tax rate and culture rating) determining this.

An indirect influence may be that the raised happiness has at least the potential to attract more migrants. Or that the presence of a space port may (I am absolutely not sure here) attract the delivery of more luxury goods.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apheirox

and unless excess happiness (15+) increases growth rate I don't understand its merits

This is indeed the crux of the matter. If happiness doesn't affect growth rate, it would actually be counter-productive under automatic taxation, as it gives the AI more room for higher taxes and these certainly stop growth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: data

don't think only of taxes, Apheirox, think also of war weariness and possible rebellion [...]

Yes, taxes should be zero on every developing colony, as long as you can sustain that (i.e. you really need the money). Or you do not want to manually set taxes.

Unfortunately the difference between taxation by the AI and 'correct', growth oriented taxation is extreme in this game. I regard the growth model and its relationship to taxation and the awareness of the AI about its implications as somewhere from 'severely flawed' to 'utterly broken' in this game.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 40

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 11:09:55 AM

Tehlongone
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Ok, so I loaded up one of my games and looked through my 100 colonies, focusing on new young colonies, the best example I could find was 2 marsh planets of identical quality, one with a base, one without, almost same population.
The one with a port had 37 happiness, and 22.3% growth.
The one without a port had 25 happiness and 20.6% growth.

While not terribly conclusive it seems certain that either happiness affects growth or the mere presence of a port does. I'm fairly certain that it's just the happiness. The thing is, unless you are filthy rich the difference is too small to make it worth it, at least to me. It makes sense to select some good colonies and pay for the slight boost, but one per system is overkill in the early and middle game.

The thing that seems to most affect growth is tax rates, even if happiness is still sky-high, taxing even a little will cause a severe drop in pop growth. Like a planet I have that was of an unwanted race, so I intentionally stunted it's growth, by inducing a whooping 10% tax rate on it... It still has 42 happiness, but 6.6% growth, without taxes I suspect it would reach around 20% growth.

(in reply to sbach2o)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/4/2011 11:43:25 AM

Data
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this can be tested more conclusively by using the editor, nowadays you can set the quality and pop of a planet....not sure about it's size, I think you can set that to
if I were not at work right now I'd jump in and test it myself, good work Tehlongone

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/5/2011 1:25:16 AM

Apheirox
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Looks to me like more data is needed, since clearly even the forum 'experts' don't know for sure. Also, even if there are a number of 'test' that seem to suggest happiness boosts growth it is also unclear if this boost is so minor as to be completely insignificant.

Good thing I got everybody pondering with this thread.

In my limited experience with the game (I don't have the expansion) it is completely impossible to determine what causes growth - unable to tell if it's happiness, culture, planet quality or other factors that make the real impact. Looking over my planet list in a current game, it seems completely random.

(in reply to Data)

Post #: 43

RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/5/2011 1:27:28 AM

Apheirox
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sbach2o

quote:

ORIGINAL: data

don't think only of taxes, Apheirox, think also of war weariness and possible rebellion [...]

Yes, taxes should be zero on every developing colony, as long as you can sustain that (i.e. you really need the money). Or you do not want to manually set taxes.

Unfortunately the difference between taxation by the AI and 'correct', growth oriented taxation is extreme in this game. I regard the growth model and its relationship to taxation and the awareness of the AI about its implications as somewhere from 'severely flawed' to 'utterly broken' in this game.

Why? What's wrong with the auto taxes?

(in reply to sbach2o)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/5/2011 2:21:47 AM

Sabin Stargem
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Basically, the AI makes young colonies without proper Medical or Recreational modules to have high taxes, which is roughly 50%. This makes the people of an colony unhappy, so they quickly start looking to join nearby empires or to become independent. Unfortunately, there is no really good way for a human player to handle this, unless the player personally inspects every sad-faced planet, adjusts the taxes, and to readjust them later after the colony is established. Even if you set the AI to tax colonies at a low level in the Policy Manager, they will still go for insane rates.

This pretty much makes the colonies switch to other empires, still be unhappy, switch to yet another, and keep doing this until someone manages to build the modules, or if the level of luxury goods are sufficient to satisfy the colony. Worse yet, those young and heavily taxed colonies barely make any money in the first place, so the point of taxation if basically moot. A stupid cycle all around.

(in reply to Apheirox)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/5/2011 2:42:43 AM

Apheirox
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Curious, I've never seen the AI mismanage taxes like that. Sounds more like a bug than a design flaw to me.

< Message edited by Apheirox -- 2/5/2011 2:46:14 AM >

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/5/2011 7:09:22 AM

currierm
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apheirox

If I'm correct and happiness doesn't speed up colony growth then I don't see why space ports should be built at every solar system. Which means we're back to the initial issue. Apparently, however, everybody IS indeed building them everywhere.

I haven't built them everywhere- although I've started to build more of them in more recent games. Current game I've got about 30 (all sizes) scattered over 150+ planets. The ones I build tend to be slightly more expensive- decent weapons, long range scanners, and a gravity well. I build enough of them to cover my borders with scanners and also on planets with important resources, high planet quality, etc.... Not just Loros fruit and the like, but also Rephidium Ale, Yarras Marble and any other resource in short supply.

(in reply to Apheirox)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/5/2011 4:25:16 PM

Tehlongone
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The design problem with taxes lies in the fact that even low taxes will significantly decrease growth compared to 0% tax rate, if the AI sets taxes so high as to cause rebellion that's more of an AI defect/bug.

The way the game is balanced right now, putting higher than 0% taxes on any world with less than say 1-2 billion is stupid, because their contribution to the empire will be tiny compared to the homeworld regardless. When they are smaller than 500m they generate only a few credits and to tax that is insane.

(in reply to currierm)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/5/2011 6:25:47 PM

Data
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I totally agree with you on this....even if I exploit the fact that the enemy AI does it as well

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/5/2011 6:25:57 PM

Apheirox
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I doubt that is 'insane'. As long as your homeworld(s) aren't at max pop you are better off economically by having its citizens stay there because these homeworld citizens generate much better revenue than the rest of your empire's planets due to the fact that the homeworld always has the best development level (which determines taxes). A person on the homeworld with access to a super luxury pays 130% taxes whereas if he moved out to your typical colony he would start paying only some 40-60%.

So, you should actually be glad your citizens won't move out - and whether your 'colonies' grow slower by any margin due to paying 1-2% taxes more is completely irrelevant since they provide practically no taxes at all and never will because they will never reach a population size that matters.

That is the true design flaw with this game IMO: The homeworld(s) is much too powerful to the point that there's no real reason to expand your empire. Colonies grow much, much too slowly. I heard this is better in the expansion (which I don't have) but in vanilla DW it is horribly designed, for sure. In DW, every single planet is utterly worthless unless it is either a starting homeworld planet or a 'lost colony'.

< Message edited by Apheirox -- 2/5/2011 6:30:26 PM >

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/5/2011 10:09:56 PM

gmot
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I'd say that this is somewhat better in the expansion but is still a major issue. One impact of the homeworld too powerful issue is that it makes successful invasion of another empire's homeworld an easy (relatively) way to cripple your opponent.

(in reply to Apheirox)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/6/2011 12:49:25 AM

Tehlongone
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Apheirox if you play a long game populations will grow to reasonable levels, unless you tax them, then they won't.

I do, however, agree about the whole homeworlds being too powerful thing although I think a different solution would be better. The worlds already grow pretty fast compared to realistic growth-rates, getting 20% growth rate and adding migration is more than enough, more would be immersion-breaking in my opinion.

The only reason this is a problem is because income is completely dependant on population. From a realism point of view, a planet with tons of natural resources and space for automated factories SHOULD be able to generate noteworthy revenue even if it "only" has 300 million inhabitants. That's the population of the united states, and these guys would have an entire planet to exploit!

I believe the solution would be to add a bonus income for planet quality, somewhat dependant on population.
Alternatively one could increase tax income across the board, but make population mean less and less the higher it gets. This way a planet should become valuable enough to tax at 500 million, the point where growth already slows down. The AI would certainly benefit, because it already seems to think this is the right time to start taxing.

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/6/2011 7:41:03 AM

Data
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+1

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/6/2011 12:15:52 PM

Apheirox
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Long One: Just how many hours/weeks/years of your time are you meant to invest into a single game session to see these 'reasonable population levels'? Because even in my marathon sessions over the last few days I don't think I've had a single planet grow to 200M, even though I've played mainly as the fast-hatching Gizureans. How is it reasonable to play this game for two weeks straight in order to see your precious colonies grow to that 1B size when you can have the game over in mere minutes by simply launching an invasion on enemy home worlds?

I think it's hard to say how it would be best rebalanced. I'm not sure your suggestion is the best one. Because frankly, I don't fully grasp how the economy in this game works. Basic things like whether you actually earn income or not by building that new iron asteroid extractor when your worlds' storages are already filled to the brim with iron and the expansion planner lists your demand for iron as a round zero. Does that still earn you a slight bit of extra revenue? I can't tell, it's shrouded in mystery in this game. From your post it is clear that you say it doesn't.

If that is the case then we have certainly found the problem. India isn't on the top three list of the earth's biggest economies just because of its vast population - no, we have instead, like you said, the US with a measly 0.3 billion. Because RESOURCES mean income, NOT population.

But your solution to the problem is then wrong. The answer would not be to let income depend on planet quality but on trade and the amount and type of resources available on said planet. Meaning your 25M pop planet with access to four or five luxuries should generate CONSIDERABLE income. We don't even need to go up to 300M like in your US example.

So, if you are in fact correct and population is indeed the sole source of income then we have isolated the problem. Then it would only require a total revamp of the economic system to fix this game.

< Message edited by Apheirox -- 2/6/2011 12:25:30 PM >

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/6/2011 1:13:11 PM

Tehlongone
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Well if you look at a planet colonized with 30 million inhabitants, and assume zero migration, then with a 20% growth rate pr year you would reach 30*1.2^15 = 462.21 in 15 years, however migration and the fact that growth rate is typically higher will mean probably just 10 years.

I've played games that lasted well past 30 years, it's a sandbox-style game and you'd essentially be holding back slightly to maintain the fun of it, as the AI won't be able to resist full-on onslaught especially if you target their lone homeworld or some such.

I'd much, much rather see these 500 million inhabitants start to matter more, than alter the game to increase growth rates further. I mean, if you really want that, it's already possible to alter all the races to have breeding rates of 50% pr year. I just think that's lame, if human that would mean every female should have on average one baby pr year, not counting deaths.

I too think resources should have an increased value, but when you think about it, in the vastness of space most resources would have little value, as they are rather common, the game simply reflects that. It could do with adding some more drains on the economies though, to increase trade.

In the game hardly any resources will add substantially to income aside from the luxury ones. I think that development levels, should require some maintenance by the more standard resources, based on population, it's realistic and would increase the value of ordinary resources.

As is, population is not the ONLY determining factor for income, just too significant. It would not require a total revamp of the the economic system, most of it would be a matter of changing the values of stuff. It just needs to be rebalanced, or perhaps allow players to finetune some of those things in mods.

< Message edited by Tehlongone -- 2/6/2011 1:17:48 PM >

(in reply to Apheirox)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/6/2011 3:12:48 PM

Kull
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As for the original question, I tend to colonize every possible planet, even those with single-digit quality levels, and *usually* those below 50 don't get space ports. But even that aside, one thing I really like is the look of a "hub-and-spoke" space empire. So I typically put a space port on one good planet in the midst of 6 or so nearby worlds, and they all "spoke" to it. Rinse and Repeat. If nothing else it tends to provide a good visual clue as to where my best planets are located, even when zoomed out to max levels.

(in reply to Tehlongone)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/6/2011 3:56:33 PM

Apheirox
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quote:

I'd much, much rather see these 500 million inhabitants start to matter more, than alter the game to increase growth rates further.

I concur. I don't want unrealistic growth either. We just need the value of colonies relative to the homeworld increased - I completely agree with you.

quote:

As is, population is not the ONLY determining factor for income, just too significant. It would not require a total revamp of the the economic system, most of it would be a matter of changing the values of stuff. It just needs to be rebalanced, or perhaps allow players to finetune some of those things in mods.

Could you help me understand where income comes from? I frankly still don't get it. What I've understood is revenue = population x development level. That would mean it comes from population only. I suppose where it ALSO comes from is trade, but how does that work? As far as I understand planets are only trading to increase their development level - each planet sends out freighters to pickup the resources required at planet. Once a planet hits 100% culture from luxuries I'm actually not sure what happens.

Another way to put the question is: What happens when both yours and galaxy's demands are saturated and demand is listed at 0.0k? I assume(?) freighters are still gathering resources from mines, because I haven't noticed them stop/disappear. Are these resources being sold somehow even if nobody in the galaxy is demanding them? Or are resources worthless without demand?

(in reply to Tehlongone)

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RE: 'A Space Port in each system' - 2/6/2011 4:02:19 PM

Data
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quote:

Another way to put the question is: What happens when both yours and galaxy's demands are saturated and demand is listed at 0.0k? I assume(?) freighters are still gathering resources from mines, because I haven't noticed them stop/disappear. Are these resources being sold somehow even if nobody in the galaxy is demanding them? Or are resources worthless without demand?

It seems there is an ongoing trade in the private sector and therefore not visible to us....the demand visible in the expansion planner is the state demand going beyond this private threshold....at least that's how I roleplay it.