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RE: June 42 - 2/7/2011 11:48:45 PM   
2ndACR


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And finally, the only area where further offensive action is taking place.




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RE: June 42 - 2/7/2011 11:49:43 PM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		For this game anyway, you can try to start your infantry on the road to recovery by getting them in on some easy attacks if you can swing it, even if you have to mix them with some armor. Just going by what you have mentioned by their moral/experience drop, so time for some live fire exercises. 

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RE: June 42 - 2/7/2011 11:51:24 PM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		I would if I could find some easy targets. LOL

I seem to take almost 4000 casualties no matter if they are in forts or not. And that tank Corp was not in any forts and look what it did to me.

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 1:14:55 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		The rifle divisions hurt you more than the tank corps, I'm betting. They are much more vulnerable by themselves.

Interestingly, look how easily you routed his guys. They're pretty shaky. They got a little shakier after that love tap. No guards coming there soon. That wasn't an overwhelming attack by any means and they still fell apart. The sheer depth of his advance is hurting him here in the sense that there isn't room for him to retreat and whatever gets knocked back has to fall back further and take more losses.

Defending up front with panzer divisions is questionable, but you are probably ok for now doing that. Once the artillery divisions show up, avoid this and try to defend with infantry only, keeping the armor in reserve and digging in. (Bob even likes to split his mech into regiments by 43.)



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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 1:16:51 AM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		I just have them there for now. They will be pulled back to Germany for refit 1-2 at a time once I feel a little safer. I just don't trust my infantry any more.

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 1:22:48 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		You don't need to pull them all the way back to Germany to refit them, that's overkill and ties up your rail cap needlessly. 5+ hexes away from the front on a rail line does the trick. They can get back into the action fairly quickly with a march from there, too. Or be railed to another part of the front if it comes to that.




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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 1:30:51 AM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		I know. But that is how beat up I feel they are. LOL

I usually pull them back to about the Minsk area for refit. But also might go back further. Those damn Partisans are being a royal pain.

Damn, I just saw the Beta 3 patch list, that is some list. Once that is out, we will be doing a re-start. I will offer this game to you testers if you want to have an extreme situation to run thru the paces.

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 1:58:02 AM   
CavLancer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Yep, they were moving out of the defense down south. Looks like that is my new armor objective. I really don't want to turtle, but I see no other choice. I have 4 Panzer Div with under 80 tanks. I just cannot keep up the attrition.

I know my opponent was not happy when I pulled back to create that buffer zone, but IMO there was not any way for me to reliably defend that front. I put a 10 mile buffer in the north, 20 miles to above Smolensk, south of Smolensk to Gomel was about 80 miles, 50-80 miles from Gomel to Kiev, and about 50 miles all the way from Kiev to the city above Odessa. I honestly think there is nothing wrong with what I did. Any thoughts on that?





Yes, this is an old problem for wargames. How to accurately depict the blitzkrieg? How to show an armored hammer breaking a narrow infantry front that has gone out of modern warfare philosophy? Your opponent knows the tactics of defense in depth, the surviving generals of Stalin's Russia might not have been so adept. So, if there are those out to recreate history then it might be done as the German playing against an AI that has been dumbed down to actual WW2 Soviet levels! Oh what joy for the AI guys to actually work to dumb down an AI for once. ;)

What WitE has to deal with is smart people on both sides, and their desire to see history repeat itself. So, how to grease the wheels of the Germans? If the Sovs have an advantage they didn't historically have, a smart leader with the benefit of hindsight, then the German needs something the Germans didn't have, a rules advantage that allows them to slice and dice that defense in depth.

Regarding pulling back 2ACR, its the only rational course.

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 2:16:20 AM   
Mynok


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Status: offline 		With the current mechanics, only a solid infantry force that can bust holes in the Soviet lines will allow the Germans to use their panzers in maneuver to create pockets and cause havoc. I'll be very interested to see what happens with the new patch. As it is now, the Germans only have infantry in 41.


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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 2:48:10 AM   
CavLancer

 

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Status: offline 		So Mynok, do all the AARs continue without the patch, switch to the patch midstream, or restart?

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 2:57:46 AM   
MrLongleg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Turn 59

Well, that Tank Corp hurt me pretty bad. LOL That is how weak my panzer div have gotten, but I routed them anyway.





Looking at that attack I still think there is a problem with the combat mechanics. We have three experienced Panzer divisions with more than double number f tanks fighting against green Russian rifle divs and a tank corps in open terrain and the Germans still loose more than 3000 men. Feels wrong to me. After all those Russian units should not have much experience since they did not fight in the winter. The loss ratio was close to 1:1 although 2 Russian units were routed. In such a fight the losss Ratio should be closer to 1:5. Historically the Russians had much higher losses most of the time even when they won a battle. (Stalingrad is a nice example with more than a million Russiam casualties compared to 300K on the German side.

According to Flavius I would expect that the Russian player should get punished for not fighting in the winter. I can't see that in the result. The Russians can perfectly live with this loss ratio.

< Message edited by Haudrauf1962 -- 2/8/2011 3:02:25 AM >

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 3:00:20 AM   
Mynok


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Status: offline 		I would love to see the level 4 report on this combat just for kicks.

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 5:27:13 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Nah, those Soviet units are pretty flimsy. He attacked them with barely even numbers and got a 3:1 result and routed two of the rifle divisions for good measure. The German had less artillery than the Soviets; and the Soviets had their final CVs adjusted by 50%, while the German got more than doubled. The tank corps is pretty beat up, too, it lost a good quarter of its armor in that attack. These tank corps can't take more than a couple of hard knocks like that before they must be pulled from the line and rested and refitted.

It wasn't any kind of overwhelming attack by the German and yielded decent results.

The other thing is I expect that most of those German losses consist of damaged elements.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 2/8/2011 5:30:40 AM >

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 12:55:12 PM   
MrLongleg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Nah, those Soviet units are pretty flimsy. He attacked them with barely even numbers and got a 3:1 result and routed two of the rifle divisions for good measure. The German had less artillery than the Soviets; and the Soviets had their final CVs adjusted by 50%, while the German got more than doubled. The tank corps is pretty beat up, too, it lost a good quarter of its armor in that attack. These tank corps can't take more than a couple of hard knocks like that before they must be pulled from the line and rested and refitted.

It wasn't any kind of overwhelming attack by the German and yielded decent results.

The other thing is I expect that most of those German losses consist of damaged elements.


I agree that the units might be flimsy - but so what. They are still able to create enormous German losses.

My point is the loss ration close to 1:1 (okay 3:4), but still. The Germans cannot afford this loss ratio in a fight against a 7+ million men red army. For me it looks like the Russian player will get away with his choice not to fight in the winter and still beat the crap out of the Germans from 43 on. If 2nd ACR continues to attack the attrition will kill his army anyway at that ratio. And due to much lower numbers it is harder to organize overwhelming attacks.

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 1:25:15 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		These losses are trivial given the operational and strategic context and quite bearable.

This is a turtle. It is not an all out offensive. The German is now going to be launching a handful of attacks each turn to stymie the Soviet, throw his war machine out of gear, and prevent the Red Army from training up and gaining combat experience.

This isn't 1941 anymore, and 10:1 casualty ratios with massive encirclements are gone. Forgetaboutit. Not gonna happen. Yet these counterattacks can really hinder the Sovs.

I completely hamstrung the Soviet in my recent playtest of a Ukraine 43-4 scenario using these hit and run tactics. (I was playing as the German, unusual for me, but the defensive situation sparked my interest.) Some of the individual combats could be bloody, especially against full tank armies. But so what? I lost some tanks and a few thousand men. The other guy had to take out an entire tank army for a turn or two and get it back up to speed. The loss in time and momentum has to be factored in here.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 2/8/2011 1:26:15 PM >

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 1:27:13 PM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		Well, my armor is not the strongest around any more. They have taken a beating the prior 6 turns. I don't have an issue with the casualties. When you add in my low experience of units across the board, and getting worse, I say it is quite believable. That is why I have had to basically halt all offensive ops across the board.

We cannot go by this game right now. I have been clobbered by the replacement experience bug, the TOE upgrade bug. So, do not try and draw conclusions from this game. It is still ongoing until the patch comes out and then we-restart and run that bad boy thru the paces.

I have ceased harping on anything until after Beta 3 is released and I have time to run with it for a while. The only other issue I think I have seen but have not really said anything about is the double whammy the German gets hit with during the blizzard. I can handle the attrition, but to get hit with a severe CV reduction right off the bat is hard to swallow. Give the Blizzard 2 turns and any unit not in a major City or populated town will be 1-2 CV anyway. But I have felt the other issues are more important to fix and refine. Because then I can get a more accurate feel for things.

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RE: June 42 - 2/8/2011 11:47:44 PM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		Question would be what do you have attached to your panzer/motorized divisions at this point? I think you mentioned pulling the engineers out of the infantry. Just wondering if you can "punch up" the panzers with any worthwhile attachments and what those might be at this point. 

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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 1:27:20 AM   
2ndACR


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Digging continues. He has launched a few attacks along the north, 3 held with him taking heavy losses, but he threw 1 div back. Mud strikes the southern front and now there are level 2 forts where those infantry div are at. I will deliberate attack a stack with 5 Panzer and 1 Motor Div next turn. In the south he threw the 3 Italian Mountain Div back, routing 2 of them. But they needed the combat exp. LOL

Pulled a Panzer Div back to Gomel to refit. Once it reaches strength I will rotate another back.

In the north, I have pulled 1 Div off the coastal front and it is now broken to Reg and digging the next row of defenses. Also broke 2 Div along the northern front and they are doing the same.

Partisans are a problem still.

Klydon, I have Pioneer BN's still attached to all panzer div. All infantry Pioneers are in the HQ's.

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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 8:02:34 PM   
2ndACR


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Let us just say that he is getting a small dose of what he is going to face. LOL

He is launching attacks in random locations, he threw 2 Div back up north, but they retreated into level 4 forts. In the Center and South, multiple attacks thrown back with heavy losses to him.

Also, my CAP is working fantastic, lots of a/c shot down today.




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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 8:04:16 PM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		And now some screen shots of his attack losses this turn.




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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 8:05:16 PM   
2ndACR


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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 8:06:38 PM   
2ndACR


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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 8:08:54 PM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		Well, this is what a turtle Russian will face if he digs in too hard for the German to attack. This will be every hex all the way to Berlin. 

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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 8:24:31 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Yeah.

As long as you keep the fort spam up, he's stuck until he can get rifle corps and artillery divisions. And even with that, he's not going to move forward quickly.

Keep launching the counterattacks on exposed stuff. It really does help. I know you felt that last one was too bloody, but the German can afford to do a handful of these a turn. Don't be completely passive. The counterattacks in combination with his huge losses with direct assaults will put the Red Army in a death spiral so far as morale and experience goes.



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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 8:37:13 PM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		I might even open a small hole just so I can mass 9+ div on him in no forts just to see how he reacts. But going to hold off until I have a good network setup.

Those Rifle Corps are a pain, but I hope once he gets them I can have just enough infantry div to make him come at 2 div in those high forts. Cause him some serious pain before I have to fall back.

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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 9:21:09 PM   
Senno

 

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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 11:07:19 PM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Wow, there were some bad attacks in that last group.

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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 11:15:13 PM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		You mean against the Romanians? Those mountain boys have gotten very good. 

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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 11:17:04 PM   
Senno

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, the Romanian Mountain divisions have been the keystones in my extreme South defense in every game.

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RE: June 42 - 2/9/2011 11:38:06 PM   
randallw

 

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