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Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 1:17:16 PM

Rugens

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From: Hoosierland
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I would first want to say that this is a groundbreaking game with many positive points. At the same time though it appears to have some serious problems. The two main issues I see from the game system are an inability for the Germans to create pockets after the first few turns, and an ability the game gives a good Soviet player to execute on a regular basis attacks resulting in retreat against significant German stacks. Both issues have been discussed since the early days of the game in this forum but I've seen no changes to really address the issues. If anything the changes made seem to take the game in the wrong direction.

Post #: 1

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 1:32:23 PM

Klydon

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Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

(in reply to Rugens)

Post #: 2

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 1:45:28 PM

mmarquo

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Carl,

I regularly put 3.5 - 4 million Soviets out of commission by the winter; there are ways to pocket huge quantities of Soviets; as for Soviet couterattacks in 1941 - it may be hard against a stacked corps, but it can be done against single divisions.

Marquo

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 3

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 1:50:15 PM

paullus99

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No Red Army player is going to nail his own troops to the ground & let you just continually encircle & annihilate them. Also, historically the Red Army was able to make a bloody mess when they were able to pull enough troops together (the Battle of Smolensk is a perfect example).

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RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 1:58:49 PM

WilliePete

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I agree that its entirely dependent on the player's skill. A decent Soviet player should be able to pull out and do other actions to keep him from getting surrounded. However, like to Soviet player having options to avoid disaster, I also feel that the German player should have options in place when it comes to the first winter.

The Germans should have on the table certain choices in whether they are given a way to ride the winter out without the devestating loses or decide to go for broke and risk the loses to obtain a certain objective. It should not be a one way result the way it is now.

< Message edited by WilliePete -- 3/14/2011 1:59:44 PM >

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RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 2:24:22 PM

GBS

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I play the AI as the Germans for these very reasons. I am currently in Sept. 11, 1941 and am looking at over 50 encircled soviet units in the North and Central. That's turn 12 or 13 I think. So it can be done. I think the AI plays the USSR more realisticly than a good human player. But that is only my opinion, nothing more. "Advance to the rear". To me....boring.

(in reply to Rugens)

Post #: 6

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 2:32:40 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

+1

There is 1 additional factor re encirclements. Germans have to prepare and plan properly to get them after the initial onslaught. My last PBEM I created a secure pocket of 42 Russian divisions on last clear turn but it took 1 turn of prep then 2 of execution by 3 pannzer groups and nearly 3 inf armies and it was a very close run thing. It was enough to make my opponent surrender after he failed to break it.

Personally I think that's a credit to the game design as I was playing someone decent.

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Post #: 7

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 2:42:05 PM

PeeDeeAitch

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I agree with those who say it is about learning. The German side is the tougher to play and execute properly. As we have seen, the smaller "slice off a chunk" encirclements are often broken by counter-attack, and it take preparation and planning to actually make a large isolation. It can be done, but it doesn't just happen. The game is fairly easy to move tanks around, it is harder to finesse and make multi-turn operations work sufficiently well to cause the damage needed.

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RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 2:54:35 PM

RCHarmon

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I have had complaints about the length of the first blizzard, etc, but I do not believe the game to be broken.

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Post #: 9

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 3:05:13 PM

Mehring

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

+2

Truly, I get more fed up with German players displacing their own poor performance onto the game than with the game's admitted problems. The fact that the Russians can effectively counter-attack in summer 1941 and the Germans likewise later in the war, is a triumph over more primitive systems which generalise all exceptions out of the game. The Germans did so well in 1941 in large part because they were experienced in a superior doctrine to that of their adversary. If you're not experienced as the German player, you shoudn't do well. Go learn how to play!

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Post #: 10

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 3:44:45 PM

Commanderski

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I do have to say that the game requires more planning and forethought than most people realize. I had a campaign going against the AI in normal and had over 30 divisions almost encircled around Smolensk. It was still opened in the North or top part. I was set to complete the circle on my next turn. During the AI's turn I heard trains and when it came back to my turn every one of them was gone. They took the last train to Moscow...

The AI just doesn't sit and wait around to be eliminated, as it shouldn't.

The AI may not counter attack as much as some would like but it makes up for it by getting in your way to make you attack. You don't know if you are attacking an understrength or shell of a divison or one at full strength.

(in reply to Mehring)

Post #: 11

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 4:12:48 PM

carnifex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Carl Rugenstein

I would first want to say that this is a groundbreaking game with many positive points. At the same time though it appears to have some serious problems. The two main issues I see from the game system are an inability for the Germans to create pockets after the first few turns, and an ability the game gives a good Soviet player to execute on a regular basis attacks resulting in retreat against significant German stacks. Both issues have been discussed since the early days of the game in this forum but I've seen no changes to really address the issues. If anything the changes made seem to take the game in the wrong direction.

Are you saying these are the two serious problems that you have encountered during your game sessions, or are you saying these two things seem to be the issues that a lot of people are complaining about when you go to the forums and read various threads?

(in reply to Rugens)

Post #: 12

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 5:52:44 PM

Tarhunnas

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From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Carl Rugenstein

I would first want to say that this is a groundbreaking game with many positive points. At the same time though it appears to have some serious problems. The two main issues I see from the game system are an inability for the Germans to create pockets after the first few turns, and an ability the game gives a good Soviet player to execute on a regular basis attacks resulting in retreat against significant German stacks. Both issues have been discussed since the early days of the game in this forum but I've seen no changes to really address the issues. If anything the changes made seem to take the game in the wrong direction.

In my exerience there are no problems with creating pockets later in the game, even in 1942. You only have to take more care to make them leak proof and not bite over more than you can chew. As for Soviet counterattacks, sure, they are possible in 1941 against a German that sticks his neck out too far, and I feel that is exactly the way it's supposed to be.

I think this is a great game, the one problem it has is the winter of 1941, but I understand that is going to be fixed.

(in reply to Rugens)

Post #: 13

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 6:32:49 PM

MengJiao

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GBS

I play the AI as the Germans for these very reasons. I am currently in Sept. 11, 1941 and am looking at over 50 encircled soviet units in the North and Central. That's turn 12 or 13 I think. So it can be done. I think the AI plays the USSR more realisticly than a good human player. But that is only my opinion, nothing more. "Advance to the rear". To me....boring.

So the game is really the opposite of broken if the AI plays better than the players.

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Post #: 14

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 6:47:36 PM

Blond_Knight

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I didnt realise I could blame my strategic failings on the AI when it beat me. :)

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RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 7:18:32 PM

MengJiao

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

I didnt realise I could blame my strategic failings on the AI when it beat me. :)

I'm always happy with the game: I only play in 1942 to 1943. The Ai seems pretty snappy to me.

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Post #: 16

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 7:20:30 PM

Encircled

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So playing the AI Soviets "realistically" in '41 is a challenge?

Er, no it isn't

Its an exercise that you do once to get the hang of the game and thats it

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Post #: 17

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 8:47:33 PM

*Lava*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

So playing the AI Soviets "realistically" in '41 is a challenge?

Er, no it isn't

Have you tried it on Challenging? Things change a bit.

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Post #: 18

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/14/2011 10:19:47 PM

ool

Posts: 470
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From: Ottawa, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

+2

Truly, I get more fed up with German players displacing their own poor performance onto the game than with the game's admitted problems. The fact that the Russians can effectively counter-attack in summer 1941 and the Germans likewise later in the war, is a triumph over more primitive systems which generalise all exceptions out of the game. The Germans did so well in 1941 in large part because they were experienced in a superior doctrine to that of their adversary. If you're not experienced as the German player, you shoudn't do well. Go learn how to play!

AMEN! The amount of German player "whineritis" in this forum is pathetic. Matrix changes this game much further why even bother putting it out if you lose the historical accuracy? Fully agree with Mehring, learn how to plat the game. Plenty of first person shooter games around if you want to win right out of the box without thinking or planning.

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Post #: 19

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 12:32:41 AM

Knavery

Posts: 286
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ool

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

+2

Truly, I get more fed up with German players displacing their own poor performance onto the game than with the game's admitted problems. The fact that the Russians can effectively counter-attack in summer 1941 and the Germans likewise later in the war, is a triumph over more primitive systems which generalise all exceptions out of the game. The Germans did so well in 1941 in large part because they were experienced in a superior doctrine to that of their adversary. If you're not experienced as the German player, you shoudn't do well. Go learn how to play!

AMEN! The amount of German player "whineritis" in this forum is pathetic. Matrix changes this game much further why even bother putting it out if you lose the historical accuracy? Fully agree with Mehring, learn how to plat the game. Plenty of first person shooter games around if you want to win right out of the box without thinking or planning.

I hear this argument a lot--that it's historically accurate if A, B, or C happens, so learn how to play the game. By that logic, there can only be one outcome. So why even bother playing? It then becomes more of an exercise to replicate what the German and Soviet forces did in the war. If you've mastered that, and can't change the outcome, there's nothing left in the game for you.

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Post #: 20

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 12:58:32 AM

Rugens

Posts: 213
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From: Hoosierland
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quote:

Are you saying these are the two serious problems that you have encountered during your game sessions, or are you saying these two things seem to be the issues that a lot of people are complaining about when you go to the forums and read various threads?

Hello Carnifex,

I find it interesting that of the 18 responses yours was the only one that asked any questions. I thank you for that.

In answer to your question yes and yes. There seem to be more than a few comments sprinkled through the forum that feel parts of the game are not in sync with historical capabilities. Yes, my play both against the AI and PBEM indicate to me that the Soviets are capable of things in the game that they were simply not capable of during the first year of the war.

I have to apologize. I am away from home until Thursday now and have only limited computer access. When I get back I'll post a few snippets of these comments on the thread. Part of my reason for posting is that I still see comments sprinkled throughout the forum but rarely in a single discussion thread anymore. Gee, after reading most of the posts on this thread I wonder why that might happen.

Regarding my own play experience I'll organize my thoughts and post those also when I get back.

For most of the other responders, I've never really felt that it should be necessary to prove one deserves common courtesy on a forum but in the perhaps vain hope that it will promote some worthwhile discussion I will.

I've never played a first person shooter game before and have no desire. I've spent a huge amount of time playing this game since it first came out. I've been playing wargames of all types probably longer than a good portion of the readership of this forum has been alive. A quick look down all of the responders to this thread tells me I've been a member of this forum longer than any of you. My opponent "Comsolut" is a very good Soviet player. I make no claim to be a superb German player or to even be as good as he is though he indicates that I am a worthy opponent. I think I could at least be termed average which ought to be good enough for any discussion regarding play balance since by defination, most players, dispite opinions they might hold of their own ability are actually average.

< Message edited by Carl Rugenstein -- 3/15/2011 1:01:01 AM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 1:25:51 AM

Knavery

Posts: 286
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Carl Rugenstein

quote:

Are you saying these are the two serious problems that you have encountered during your game sessions, or are you saying these two things seem to be the issues that a lot of people are complaining about when you go to the forums and read various threads?

Hello Carnifex,

I find it interesting that of the 18 responses yours was the only one that asked any questions. I thank you for that.

In answer to your question yes and yes. There seem to be more than a few comments sprinkled through the forum that feel parts of the game are not in sync with historical capabilities. Yes, my play both against the AI and PBEM indicate to me that the Soviets are capable of things in the game that they were simply not capable of during the first year of the war.

I have to apologize. I am away from home until Thursday now and have only limited computer access. When I get back I'll post a few snippets of these comments on the thread. Part of my reason for posting is that I still see comments sprinkled throughout the forum but rarely in a single discussion thread anymore. Gee, after reading most of the posts on this thread I wonder why that might happen.

Regarding my own play experience I'll organize my thoughts and post those also when I get back.

For most of the other responders, I've never really felt that it should be necessary to prove one deserves common courtesy on a forum but in the perhaps vain hope that it will promote some worthwhile discussion I will.

I've never played a first person shooter game before and have no desire. I've spent a huge amount of time playing this game since it first came out. I've been playing wargames of all types probably longer than a good portion of the readership of this forum has been alive. A quick look down all of the responders to this thread tells me I've been a member of this forum longer than any of you. My opponent "Comsolut" is a very good Soviet player. I make no claim to be a superb German player or to even be as good as he is though he indicates that I am a worthy opponent. I think I could at least be termed average which ought to be good enough for any discussion regarding play balance since by defination, most players, dispite opinions they might hold of their own ability are actually average.

Hey Carl,
Good response. I've got the game, but am pretty horrible at wargaming in general. So, if people are reacting to you in this manner, they'd butcher me in a thread should I start one. The Matrix forums have lately been filled with negative responses from self-important, pompous people who think they have the right to be disrespectful of others. And speaking of, this forum is closely resembling an FPS forum. But instead of the immaturity, you get a serious condescending attitude problem from a lot of folks. There's absolutely no difference in my opinion.

I've been here for a few years, but don't participate in threads as much as say the Wargamer. But people over there seem to get along for the most part even in the religion and politics sub-forum.

I guess I'm just a little ashamed of the responses I've been reading in several different threads over the past few days. I certainly don't have the right to tell anyone how to act, because there are a lot of forum members older and wiser than me. But the negativity could be lowered a few notches IMO.

Sorry I had nothing to contribute to this thread. I'm just a troll that needs to speak his mind when his fellow forum members could display a little bit more patience and respect.

< Message edited by Knavery -- 3/15/2011 1:27:30 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 1:31:17 AM

vicberg

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This forum can get a bit nasty, somewhat unique to matrix forums as a whole and perhaps a result of all the japs vs. allied arguments in WITP carried forward into this game. Some people may be getting tired of the arguments.

And that's a good segue into an issue I think is a major problem with the game. Both 2x3 game company and matrix relish that the combat system is a secret. I think that's just a HUGE mistake and creates all these endless arguments about balance. The argument I've seen for keeping it a secret is that some players get an edge doing their homework. That argument just doesn't fly, IMO. EVERY wargame I've ever played, whether computer or board, lays the combat system out in black and white. Only WITPAE and WITE don't and guess what, endless arguments.

Why the secrecy? No offense to Matrix, but it's childish. Lay the game out clearly and let people play it. If germans are getting a pop during the first year and soviets are getting a pop during winter, and these pops are known entities, then everyone can discuss with common knowledge and hopefully less nastiness. In addition, house rules are easier to develop if the mechanics are a known entity as are mods to the game.

Come on Matrix, stop being silly

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Post #: 23

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 2:14:48 AM

Joel Billings

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Vicberg, I'd have no problems having the combat system be documented. Unfortunately, it would be a huge task, very time consuming and difficult to lay out to people (unless they want to read C code). There are just so many factors going on. We tried to put out some of the important concepts, but going into more detail is virtually impossible. We just don't have the programmer time available to try to analyze what is going on and detail it in an understandable way. Occasionally an issue will become important in the tester forum, and we'll try to get some more info from Pavel (or Gary) on the details so we know what's going on. The two games you mention are classic Gary games. He sits down and writes pages of formulas that try to account for all the factors that Gary can think of that would influence the item in question (whether combat, supplies, etc.). It's never documented before he writes it. So it becomes a time suck as he (or someone like Pavel that can read Gary's code) explains what's going on (often to me over the phone) so it can be written up for the manual or the testers. We do not have the resources for incredibly detailed testing of the formulas, or even explanation of everything going on. We go by feel, and often discover a bug that was buried in the code that had things not working the way we wanted it to. Sometimes it amazes me that Gary gets as close as he does to the way things should work.

If you have a specific question about something, you can always ask, either on the forum or in an email to 2by3@2by3games.com. Sometimes Pavel will respond online and sometimes I will get an answer for an email. No promises though as it depends on how complex the answer is. But we do try to answer those questions we can because we do want people to learn what is important (and it often helps for us to know as well).

Many people ask how many copies of the various games have sold. Well, WitE, WitP, and WitP AE have followed similar sales trajectories and we are happy that WitE is following in the two WitP's footsteps. But let me tell you right now there is not that much money in this for those of us that are doing it full time. We make a living, but not one even close to what good console game programmers/developers make. And yet these games are big projects that suck time and so we have to make a call on how much programmer time we can put into any item, including documenting the systems in the game. If it weren't for the unpaid volunteers like the testers and the semi-volunteer programmers that get paid very little for the time they put in, things would be even worse.

On another note, I too wish people would be more civil on the forum. We are always interested in constructive criticism. I do think that a thread titled "Game has Serious Problems" tends to generate some heated responses, but hope they would not turn into personal attacks. We acknowledge the game is not perfect, but we firmly believe the game is a fun "game" and can be enjoyed as it is today. It is true that the German Army does not take the damage it should by the fall of 1941, and takes too much in the winter, and we're working on that, but even so the game can be enjoyed today. We are a long way from the boardgame WitE where the Soviets had no chance of even one attack before the winter of 41. On the other hand, we may not have everything perfect (and no doubt never will). But as one interested in feedback, I find it interesting that for every person that says the Soviets can't attack in the summer of 41 I see one saying they can (and I've seen examples of this). So I don't think it's all or nothing, but somewhere in between.

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Post #: 24

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 2:29:57 AM

Mynok

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I'm having fun! I read C code too. ;)

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Post #: 25

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 2:49:40 AM

vicberg

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Thanks for the response.

I wasn't going to go into sales, but I do think that the discourse on this forum is turning people away. For every one post: "I'm thinking about buying it but I'm reading on the forum....", there's 10 that don't post and go on to the next matrix offerring. Not sure why there's such rivalry. It far exceeds japs vs. allied in WIPTAE, perhaps because the Japs have such little chance for victory, there rivalry is less. In this game, the germans have a real chance.

No worries on the documentation task. I've owned Gary's original board games and am a big admirer. They are ambitious. I've been in technology for 23 years. Could I read C code, certainly. Do I want to? Heck NO! Didn't know Gary was coding. That explains EVERYTHING. LOL. Based on his games I've owned, it's much like a magician waving a hand over a function or procedure, invoking a incantation and returning a result based on phases of the moon.

Howver, developer notes (reader's digest version) might be helpful. We bumped german TOE in 1941 because...., we added a modifier to soviet winter attacks because...., soviet factory transfer works like this....in other words a bit more information on the basics that are going into 1941 and 1942 (because I haven't seen a whole lot on 1943 or beyond yet...doesn't seem that anyone is getting that far yet, at least in PBEM). Everyone is barking about 41 and 42. It might help with basic tactics and understanding.

I also agree, I'm reading about various tactics that are working and not working on both sides. It's a work in progress, no worries there.

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Post #: 26

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 2:59:17 AM

vicberg

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Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline

BTW...about the money thing, I understand that your company doesn't have resources to expose everything going on. But in that vein, if you are looking for someone to expose the workings, I'm willing to do it. It's a good offer Joel. The price is in your budget...free!

(in reply to vicberg)

Post #: 27

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 3:43:44 AM

Commanderski

Posts: 927
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

We acknowledge the game is not perfect

I don't think that there is any computer game out that is running a version 1.0 and is still being played, unless it just came out in the last couple of days. This game is great and I plan on playing this for many hours or years to come even if there are no additional changes or updates.

The guys at Matrix and 2X3 have put out a wonderful product, have great tech support and are more than willing to listen to valid feedback. I hope they continue with their superior support and don't get discouraged from those who are not patient enough to learn how the game operates.

Thanks again Matrix!

(in reply to vicberg)

Post #: 28

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 4:43:31 AM

PyleDriver

Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline

Well I started testing WitE in the summer of 2008, and I'm still playing it and loving it... The Axis player is hard pressed from the onset, every move is a test on time and has to be well thought out...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Commanderski)

Post #: 29

RE: Game Has Serious Problems - 3/15/2011 4:52:49 AM

Klydon

Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline

A few observations/comments:

First, the written word can suck for intent. When the medium of communication is restricted to strictly the typed word, it is sometimes hard to tell if someone is serious with a comment or if they are joking. Statements can be taken the wrong way, etc especially on a board where many are not native speakers of the language in use.

My second observation is I wonder exactly what types of posts the OP expected with a title of "Game has serious issues" along with posting some comments that would leave many of us to believe the OP is in the Axis fan club. Like any community, most here have an agenda; be it for the promotion of the Axis or Russian side or a variety of other things. My comment was attributed to the fact that I visit this forum quite a bit and this was the first time I recall seeing you post here and like a lot of people that post here very early, there are observations/complaints that one side or the other is "broken" because they can't do something in game or had something happen to them in game that they don't like.

I don't know how you can make a statement about the Germans not being able to encircle troops after the initial opening when all you have to do is take the time to look over the many AAR's and see that while it can be difficult to accomplish, it is absolutely possible and has happen more than just a little. Anyone who has done their homework can see it and knows this, yet here we got someone saying the game has serious issues.

Same for the counterattacks. Heck, we have had a lot of people that have complained about the Russians not being able to attack at all like they historically did from the start of the campaign. The one area where there is discussion about Russian attacks is the final odds modifier, which is known about and is being looked at but this does not appear to be a game breaker for the time being.

There are a lot of posts on these threads that are very instructive and offer great insight to the game from the time of the testers before release to the community working on certain questions as well like the Axis opening strats threads in the war room section along with tips and help for newer people to the game to help them out. The players taking the time to do the AAR's are doing it for both entertainment and to also help others out. You can learn a ton reading them over and seeing what people are experiencing and going through.

Finally is the fact that there are no rules about a person having to play just one side. I have seen several people make statements and assumptions that I can bet they have never loaded up the other side or messed with them much at all. The blizzard controversy is a prime example of this and for those that broke down and tried the other side, it became apparent there are issues and those are being looked at.

The bottom line is the game isn't perfect, but for most of those that have played it quite a bit and have also participated/read the forum here, they know it to be a great game; not one that has "serious issues" for one side or the other. Look at the threads of people who were undecided on buying and the overwhelming number of posts there suggest buying the game.

I apologize for the wall of text, but if someone comes in as a obvious fan of one side or the other and calling foul about the game being broken, then I think the community is not going to respond in a real positive fashion most of the time. I don't speak for the community at all, but that is my opinion and observation.

@Knavery I generally try to treat others as I would like to be treated, but I am not sure how it is expected everyone is supposed to be all nice and understanding with a post title that is pretty negative. On top of that, reading into the post, I find the basis of the title to be pretty biased and uninformed from what I have seen/experienced. I gave my opinion and why I felt the way I did.

(in reply to Commanderski)

Post #: 30