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RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 4:27:45 AM   
Mynok


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Forget it PDH. He's too set in his own authority to hear anything that doesn't agree with his fantasies. There's not a historian out there that I've ever seen who thinks Stalingrad was anything but a futile effort. Sound and fury, accomplishing nothing. That's the historical record. No one can alter that, by big words or whining.



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RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 4:50:43 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


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Status: offline 		Oh I know, there is just something funny to me when someone says the equivalent of "I have never called anyone an idiot, you idiot." over and over.  My sense of humor is sometimes childlike (my ex-wife would say childish), but that is obvious from my posts.

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RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 4:51:23 AM   
bdtj1815

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815
I cannot argue with your comments because they are so uninfirmed that to do so would obviously not be worth the effort.



What did I do again?

What?

quote:

See! You did it again!


< Message edited by bdtj1815 -- 3/23/2011 4:53:56 AM >

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Post #: 33
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 4:56:36 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
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Status: offline 		nvm


< Message edited by Aurelian -- 3/23/2011 5:52:04 AM >

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Post #: 34
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 7:26:33 AM   
larryfulkerson


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Status: offline 		Please, please you guys.  Can't we all just get along?

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Post #: 35
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 8:08:27 AM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Please, please you guys.  Can't we all just get along?


+1

Please don't destroy my thread with bickering!

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Post #: 36
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 11:58:26 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Getting the thread back on topic:

Throughout testing there was a lot of debate on what the instant win threshold should be, and the target VP number went up and down like a whore's drawers. In the end, the number was based on OKW/OKH's own assessment of what they thought they could/would achieve.

I am surprised so few people seem to be playing the Barbarossa scenario, as we would see threads headed "I got Moscow and lost!". The objectives have been based on OKHs objectives for the first 6 months, to purposely show just how hard a task the Axis had set themselves.

I can see the merit in having a "political collapse" % die roll, but will Axis players carry on playing if they miss the roll?

Games will end when players stop having fun. This will then rely on the mindset of mostly Axis players as to whether they will get as much fun from defending against the 1943/44 Soviet Juggernaut, as they get from ripping the Red Army to shreds in 1941 and 1942, assuming that the blizzard doesn't take all the fun out of the game for them.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 3/23/2011 12:00:54 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 1:26:24 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Games will end when players stop having fun. This will then rely on the mindset of mostly Axis players as to whether they will get as much fun from defending against the 1943/44 Soviet Juggernaut, as they get from ripping the Red Army to shreds in 1941 and 1942, assuming that the blizzard doesn't take all the fun out of the game for them.


Yes, I agree. My idea was that if there were VPs that made it a priority to try to keep certain locations, that would make the defensive part of the game more interesting. It would provide a way to "win" in points even if you lost.

It would also provide incentives to for example keep or take the Crimea, as debated in another interesting thread (before it went OT).

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Post #: 38
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 1:45:47 PM   
Manstein63


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Status: offline 		Just as the Soviet player tries to avoid any large pockets in 1941 a German player will also try not to over extend his forces in 1942 & 43 unless the Soviets have collapsed  & or he has the chance of winning the game by ammasing enough VP's. However  IMO the only realistic way that the Germans are able to win is by being in control of Berlin & as much of Eastern Europe as possible by games end. Play the game & enjoy playing the game but remember that it is only a game & the world will still continue in blissfull ignorance of any decisions that you may have made.
Manstein63

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Post #: 39
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 1:54:06 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Please, please you guys.  Can't we all just get along?


+1

Please don't destroy my thread with bickering!

My apologies, I was in the wrong.

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Post #: 40
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 2:06:37 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Please, please you guys.  Can't we all just get along?


Not with trolls, no. That's what the green button is for. Carry on.

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Post #: 41
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 3:15:26 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		I posted before that I thought a turn-based VP system, where you are awarded VPs per turn for holding certain objectives, would encourage more risks on each side, and increase the importance of VP Objectives. I would even make them include big bonuses for certain acheivements; for example, Germans take Kiev turn 6, you get a big bump in point. Soviets still hold Kiev turn 12, you get a big bump in points. That type of thing. Might encourage the Soviets to hold on to objectives longer, or Axis to push quicker.

I realize that would be very very tough to implement and then balance.

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Post #: 42
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 3:19:42 PM   
karonagames


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quote:

I realize that would be very very tough to implement and then balance.


My guess is that if Joel dropped by this thread, we would see a similar response as in the weather thread. I am not an expert on the editor, but I don't think there is much flexibility in the current VP model.

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Post #: 43
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 7:05:14 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Status: offline 		The VP system works fine as is.

Don't see why some are trying to force players to act a certain way.

If I want to hold onto Kiev for who knows how many turns, it should be because *I* want to.

Maybe because I want to get the factories out. Maybe because it's because a defense line further back isn't done.

Maybe because I'm a masochist.

But it's for my reasons.

Not because some arbitrary "bonus" could fall my way.

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Post #: 44
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 7:24:47 PM   
findmeifyoucan

 

Posts: 579
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Status: offline 		Whatever, the point is the defensive line was idiotic. How can you defend you flanks with pee shooters? i.e Rumanian and Hungarian forces. I may not have read about this battle extensively in fine detail but I know the historical layout of the forces on both sides when the Germans where holding Stalingrad before the Russian offensive to take it back

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Post #: 45
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 7:53:25 PM   
Angelo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

I realize that would be very very tough to implement and then balance.


My guess is that if Joel dropped by this thread, we would see a similar response as in the weather thread. I am not an expert on the editor, but I don't think there is much flexibility in the current VP model.


That excuse is starting to wear thin with me.

I think it's the excuse of every IT department ever... Can't be done with the resoures/technology/personnel we have.

2by3 games is a good company and it has the resourses to add move detail to the game. It's a question of whether they wish to do so. And as I've stated in another post I'm quite willing to buy an expantion for a more detailed game.

< Message edited by Angelo -- 3/23/2011 7:55:01 PM >

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Post #: 46
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 8:14:35 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

The VP system works fine as is.

Don't see why some are trying to force players to act a certain way.

If I want to hold onto Kiev for who knows how many turns, it should be because *I* want to.

Maybe because I want to get the factories out. Maybe because it's because a defense line further back isn't done.

Maybe because I'm a masochist.

But it's for my reasons.

Not because some arbitrary "bonus" could fall my way.


Then why don't you play on a completely featureless map?

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Post #: 47
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 9:42:23 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

The VP system works fine as is.

Don't see why some are trying to force players to act a certain way.

If I want to hold onto Kiev for who knows how many turns, it should be because *I* want to.

Maybe because I want to get the factories out. Maybe because it's because a defense line further back isn't done.

Maybe because I'm a masochist.

But it's for my reasons.

Not because some arbitrary "bonus" could fall my way.


Then why don't you play on a completely featureless map?


Make one and I will.

Better yet, why don't you spend the time and money to make a game that fits with your idea of how it should be played?

If I like what I see I'll buy it.

That is if you really believe in your idea.

And if your response is the best you can come up, then your idea had no merit from the get go.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 3/23/2011 9:54:01 PM >

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Post #: 48
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 10:08:54 PM   
mikemcmann

 

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Status: offline 		Geez.... It's like afternoon kindergarten class in here...


Expected to read something interesting and instead see children pulling each others hair....

This is an adult game.....right?

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Post #: 49
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/23/2011 10:18:36 PM   
Tarhunnas


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From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

The VP system works fine as is.

Don't see why some are trying to force players to act a certain way.

If I want to hold onto Kiev for who knows how many turns, it should be because *I* want to.

Maybe because I want to get the factories out. Maybe because it's because a defense line further back isn't done.

Maybe because I'm a masochist.

But it's for my reasons.

Not because some arbitrary "bonus" could fall my way.


Then why don't you play on a completely featureless map?


Make one and I will.

Better yet, why don't you spend the time and money to make a game that fits with your idea of how it should be played?

If I like what I see I'll buy it.

That is if you really believe in your idea.

And if your response is the best you can come up, then your idea had no merit from the get go.



What I wanted to say was: We have the map, we want that realistic, we have the units and we want the OOB and their strenghts to be accurate, we have the production system, we have the weather and we want tat realistic. But the political imperatives that made it important to take or hold certain cities are also a part of the equation. The leaders that had to take the real decisions were bound by those constraints too. To take that away is akin to removing any of the other factors, for example the terrain features. I should have been more explicit in what I meant.

@ Aurelian: Sorry about being enigmatic, I meant no disrespect.

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RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 12:05:25 AM   
Aurelian

 

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< Message edited by Aurelian -- 3/24/2011 12:15:41 AM >

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RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 1:58:23 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I posted before that I thought a turn-based VP system, where you are awarded VPs per turn for holding certain objectives, would encourage more risks on each side, and increase the importance of VP Objectives. I would even make them include big bonuses for certain acheivements; for example, Germans take Kiev turn 6, you get a big bump in point. Soviets still hold Kiev turn 12, you get a big bump in points. That type of thing. Might encourage the Soviets to hold on to objectives longer, or Axis to push quicker.

I realize that would be very very tough to implement and then balance.


That would turn off conservative players like me. A really fun game for everyone is if there is equal chance of success with both risky and conservative play styles. But of course how many historical situations have this characteristic?

< Message edited by jomni -- 3/24/2011 2:00:19 AM >

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Post #: 52
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 2:06:13 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann

Geez.... It's like afternoon kindergarten class in here...


Expected to read something interesting and instead see children pulling each others hair....

This is an adult game.....right?


Supposedly. But when the OP can't accept that not everyone is going to drop to their knees in praise....

And the best arguement he can come up with is "Play on a featureless map."

Well, said OP is not following the plea, how was it put "Please don't destroy my thread with bickering!"


< Message edited by Aurelian -- 3/24/2011 2:17:50 AM >

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RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 2:16:04 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I posted before that I thought a turn-based VP system, where you are awarded VPs per turn for holding certain objectives, would encourage more risks on each side, and increase the importance of VP Objectives. I would even make them include big bonuses for certain acheivements; for example, Germans take Kiev turn 6, you get a big bump in point. Soviets still hold Kiev turn 12, you get a big bump in points. That type of thing. Might encourage the Soviets to hold on to objectives longer, or Axis to push quicker.

I realize that would be very very tough to implement and then balance.


That would turn off conservative players like me. A really fun game for everyone is if there is equal chance of success with both risky and conservative play styles. But of course how many historical situations have this characteristic?


The problem, as I see it, is that how the campaign is won gets tossed out the window. Then you have to come up with a way to not have one side sit down and do the math to see exactly what they have to do to win. (I take this much, then sit for the entire game.) Which can lead to boredom for one side or the other.

The most boring game I ever played was USAAF as the Germans. The American player did nothing but bomb Brest/Bourduex/whatever was closest. Only two raids a turn. That went on for 50 turns before I just gave up out of boredom.



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Post #: 54
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 3:28:51 AM   
Pipewrench


Posts: 453
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I posted before that I thought a turn-based VP system, where you are awarded VPs per turn for holding certain objectives, would encourage more risks on each side, and increase the importance of VP Objectives. I would even make them include big bonuses for certain acheivements; for example, Germans take Kiev turn 6, you get a big bump in point. Soviets still hold Kiev turn 12, you get a big bump in points. That type of thing. Might encourage the Soviets to hold on to objectives longer, or Axis to push quicker.

I realize that would be very very tough to implement and then balance.


That would turn off conservative players like me. A really fun game for everyone is if there is equal chance of success with both risky and conservative play styles. But of course how many historical situations have this characteristic?


The problem, as I see it, is that how the campaign is won gets tossed out the window. Then you have to come up with a way to not have one side sit down and do the math to see exactly what they have to do to win. (I take this much, then sit for the entire game.) Which can lead to boredom for one side or the other.

The most boring game I ever played was USAAF as the Germans. The American player did nothing but bomb Brest/Bourduex/whatever was closest. Only two raids a turn. That went on for 50 turns before I just gave up out of boredom.





I know what you mean. It seems that games are stuck in the old table top model where victory points are known and exploited by all.

A way to keep things going for both players is that each side picks at the start politically important cities that modify the victory points with a scorecard of the modified results displayed at the end of the year.

would be very hard to model so I'm just blowing smoke.


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Post #: 55
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 4:45:45 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		I don't have a problem with the victory model as it stands. It's simple. Easily understood by all.

I also see no reason to impose a system to force players to act like their historical counterparts.

The old Avalon Hill game France 1940 had a scenario called the Dyle Plan that did just that. The Allies had to follow the actual plan. You play it once, just to see how inept they were.

Not much fun for the Allied player.

There was a S&T article that listed a series of scenarios for Panzer Blitz that had a whole new dimension for the game. All you needed was a deck of cards. You drew a playin card, that told you how many points to spend, and what you needed to win.

The opponent did the same thing. Neither knew what the other to spend or what their objective was. You could have 200 points, I could have 1400, and you could win easily just by moving some units from one end to the other.

wouldn't work for this game though.

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Post #: 56
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 6:03:35 AM   
Thomas_B

 

Posts: 6
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Status: offline 		From my point of view having any kind of victory points as measure of overall success only applied at the very end of the game turns the game itself into operational warfare for operational warfare's sake, which is pretty ahistorical.

Armies went to war and waged certain campaigns because the political leadership wanted to go to war and set them certain objectives - whether the military leadership liked that or not. It would be nice to see that reflected in the game.

One, relatively easy, even if not necessarily the most accurate way to achieve this, would be to award VPs for geographic objectives at the end of every turn, instead of at game's end.

So, if for example Moscow might be worth 450 VP at the end of a 225 game turn campaign, why not award the player holding the city 2 VP per turn. This would incentivise both sides by providing them with more of a rationale to fight for these objectives.

Don't get me wrong - I don't intend to badmouth the game, I really like it - but the current campaign VP conditions do not reflect this aspect very well.

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Post #: 57
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 7:29:43 AM   
76mm


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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bdtj1815
I cannot argue with your comments because they are so uninfirmed that to do so would obviously not be worth the effort.

Congratulations, you win the "Most Patronizing Forum Member" Award! We are in the presence (virtual at any rate) of greatness, of one who knows the Truth about history...


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Post #: 58
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 3:55:16 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
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From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas_B

From my point of view having any kind of victory points as measure of overall success only applied at the very end of the game turns the game itself into operational warfare for operational warfare's sake, which is pretty ahistorical.

Armies went to war and waged certain campaigns because the political leadership wanted to go to war and set them certain objectives - whether the military leadership liked that or not. It would be nice to see that reflected in the game.

One, relatively easy, even if not necessarily the most accurate way to achieve this, would be to award VPs for geographic objectives at the end of every turn, instead of at game's end.

So, if for example Moscow might be worth 450 VP at the end of a 225 game turn campaign, why not award the player holding the city 2 VP per turn. This would incentivise both sides by providing them with more of a rationale to fight for these objectives.

Don't get me wrong - I don't intend to badmouth the game, I really like it - but the current campaign VP conditions do not reflect this aspect very well.


That was my reasoning too.

I am going to put together an excel sheet just for fun to see what values one would arrive at using the historical capture and recapture dates of cities in the Soviet Union. For a start I am going to give each city hex 1 VP per turn, with certain exceptions:

Moscow 2 (but maybe not for all hexes)
Sevastopol 2 (to account for political importance of the Crimea)
Simferopol 1 (even though it's not a city, same reason as above)
Stalingrad 2
Baku 2
Kiev 2
Kharkov 2
Leningrad already has several hexes, so needs no extra.

Probably 1 for each resource hex.

Any other suggestions for important locations?

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Post #: 59
RE: VPs that encouraged historical strategy - 3/24/2011 4:43:46 PM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		Not sure, but maybe Stalino or Rostov for 1 pt?

Sverdlovsk for 5 pts?

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Post #: 60
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