AKE ships

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

AKE ships

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> AKE ships

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

AKE ships - 4/24/2011 4:11:44 PM

Arigoth

Posts: 57
Joined: 2/9/2011
Status: offline

If I put the Japanese AKE in a port does that increase the ability to the port to rearm shipping?

Post #: 1

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 4:18:18 PM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

Yes but you have to insure the AKE is loaded with supplies when you disband it in the port.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Arigoth)

Post #: 2

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 4:21:50 PM

Arigoth

Posts: 57
Joined: 2/9/2011
Status: offline

Thanks. Does it actually increase the size of the weapons that can be rearmed also?

(in reply to treespider)

Post #: 3

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 4:24:30 PM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arigoth

Thanks. Does it actually increase the size of the weapons that can be rearmed also?

Check out the manual...specifically the last sentence of page 284.

< Message edited by treespider -- 4/24/2011 4:32:36 PM >

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Arigoth)

Post #: 4

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 5:15:22 PM

Sredni

Posts: 705
Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

To help clarify, just consider the ake or ae's supply capacity to be it's rearm cost capacity. For instance C2 Lassen Class AE has a cargo capacity of 5400, which means it can reload anything except for the yamato's 18 inch guns (if the allies had 18 inch guns heh), which require a rearm cost of 6440. I'm not sure if they can reload torpedoes or not... but I think they should be able to.

So the C2 Lassen with it's 5400 capacity can reload 16 inch guns (rearm cost of 5400). However the Harriman Tender class AKE with it's supply capacity of 4200 cannot. It is however good for smaller guns like the secondary 5" guns or all the aa guns.

These ships operate independently of the port they're in. And I don't think you need to dock the combat ships at the port to reload there. I've got some ake's in balikpapan that I use to reload a big surface TF from time to time. The TF is much to big to dock there, but I can reload it's guns there without docking. I just can't take on any fuel without splitting up the TF to dock individually.

edit: oh and AE's and AKE's are treated as functionally the same type of ship until late war (44 and later I believe) when AE's gain the ability to reload ships at sea.

< Message edited by Sredni -- 4/24/2011 5:16:40 PM >

(in reply to treespider)

Post #: 5

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 5:26:57 PM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

The AKE has to have supply loaded before it can rearm? Does any one else realize how stupid that is? From page 284 in the manual:

Ports that are normally too small to rearm certain weapons may do so if an appropriate tender is at anchor in the Port. The weapon Rearm Cost must be "less than or equal to" the tender "cargo capacity".

If I have an AKE that has a cargo capacity of 5,500 it can rearm anything exect the Yamoto class regardless of the size of the port according to the table in the manual, correct? If I have a 25K of supplies at a lv1 port why would I need to take the AKE, put it in a TF, load supplies (which are already at the port), wait till its full, and then disband it just so I could ream a ship? Is somehow loading the existing supplies at the port magically converts them to Naval AP shells?

If the supplies are already at the port and the AKE is also in the Port (i.e not docked or at sea) it make no sense to force the player to do the above just to rearm.

Unless of course my understanding of how AKE's work is incorrect (which is the most likely explaination, lol)

(in reply to treespider)

Post #: 6

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 5:45:37 PM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

The general usage of AKEs is to pick up ammo at one place and move to another for rearming. Something like loading up at Pearl and then rearming ships at Ulithi. If the AKE can dock at the local facilities but the BB can not, then NO, it is not stupid to force the transfer of the ammo from the port to the AKE and then the AKE to the BB. If the port had enough facilities, it could transfer directly. If there is anything "a-historical" here is it allowing the AKE to reload the ammo at a port where the BB can not dock - but then the game could never go to the depth of detail to track ability to handle 16-inch shells. So supply is supply is ammo is spare parts is gas is construction materials is food is toilet paper....

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 7

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 6:11:12 PM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

So the AKE is nothing more that a giant lighter ship then.

While I now understand the process the game uses much better, the mechnics still leave a lot to be desired. In other words imho, if an AKE is present (with or without supply on board) it's very presence should allow rearming to occur (assuming enough supplies at the port) rather than force the player to add another layer of complexity on by requiring the AKE to actually be carrying supplies.

Now I have to make sure all my AKEs actually have supplies on them and are in a TF, lol.

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 8

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 6:36:19 PM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

Sorry, I have to disagree with your laughter. The process does emulate the use of ammo ships to rearm ships at small ports. I honestly believe allowing it to load supplies at the port and then rearm using them (i.e. the lighter comment) is wrong but there is no way we could reasonably limit it with code.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 9

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 7:49:25 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Sorry, I have to disagree with your laughter. The process does emulate the use of ammo ships to rearm ships at small ports. I honestly believe allowing it to load supplies at the port and then rearm using them (i.e. the lighter comment) is wrong but there is no way we could reasonably limit it with code.

I look at it as I look at ASes loading fish or ADs the same. There's more to loading ordnance than having the ammo. There's slings, special tools, safety observers, other training, etc. Having torpedoes in a warehouse isn't going to get them down in the torpedo room. Support ships bridge this gap.

Such suspension of disbelief can go a long way in the game to adding spice. I'm sure you have RL images in your mind of ammo on-loads as I do of torpedo and missile loads. (OK, I guess you have missle laods too.

) Those who were never in a navy don't have those images.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 10

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 9:31:30 PM

Bradley7735

Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Sorry, I have to disagree with your laughter. The process does emulate the use of ammo ships to rearm ships at small ports. I honestly believe allowing it to load supplies at the port and then rearm using them (i.e. the lighter comment) is wrong but there is no way we could reasonably limit it with code.

I'm not a programmer, so I would defer to Don on the wisdom. But, I wonder if it would be easy to limit loading of AKE and AE ships to size 7 or larger ports.

That way, you could supply BB's at size 1 ports. But, when your AE ran out of supply, you'd need to send it to the main port to load again. Then again, some would complain that the 5" ammo could be loaded in a size 5 port. Or, 6" ammo could be loaded in a size 6 port. Oh well....

I'm sure this isn't as easy as my brain thinks it is......

_____________________________

The older I get, the better I was.

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 11

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 9:36:09 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Sorry, I have to disagree with your laughter. The process does emulate the use of ammo ships to rearm ships at small ports. I honestly believe allowing it to load supplies at the port and then rearm using them (i.e. the lighter comment) is wrong but there is no way we could reasonably limit it with code.

I'm not a programmer, so I would defer to Don on the wisdom. But, I wonder if it would be easy to limit loading of AKE and AE ships to size 7 or larger ports.

That way, you could supply BB's at size 1 ports. But, when your AE ran out of supply, you'd need to send it to the main port to load again. Then again, some would complain that the 5" ammo could be loaded in a size 5 port. Or, 6" ammo could be loaded in a size 6 port. Oh well....

I'm sure this isn't as easy as my brain thinks it is......

One problem is that you then limit the smaller AKE's in their effort to rearm smaller ships. Would that cure be worse than the problem?

(in reply to Bradley7735)

Post #: 12

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 9:55:45 PM

Bradley7735

Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Sorry, I have to disagree with your laughter. The process does emulate the use of ammo ships to rearm ships at small ports. I honestly believe allowing it to load supplies at the port and then rearm using them (i.e. the lighter comment) is wrong but there is no way we could reasonably limit it with code.

I'm not a programmer, so I would defer to Don on the wisdom. But, I wonder if it would be easy to limit loading of AKE and AE ships to size 7 or larger ports.

That way, you could supply BB's at size 1 ports. But, when your AE ran out of supply, you'd need to send it to the main port to load again. Then again, some would complain that the 5" ammo could be loaded in a size 5 port. Or, 6" ammo could be loaded in a size 6 port. Oh well....

I'm sure this isn't as easy as my brain thinks it is......

One problem is that you then limit the smaller AKE's in their effort to rearm smaller ships. Would that cure be worse than the problem?

Well, those smaller ships could rearm their weapons at the smaller ports anyway. Would there be a benefit to the small AKE's loading supplies at smaller ports? If you had a size 3 port, they could rearm the AA ammo anyway. I'm looking at the issue of loading AKE's at size 3 ports to load 16" ammo.

_____________________________

The older I get, the better I was.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 13

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 10:20:04 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Sorry, I have to disagree with your laughter. The process does emulate the use of ammo ships to rearm ships at small ports. I honestly believe allowing it to load supplies at the port and then rearm using them (i.e. the lighter comment) is wrong but there is no way we could reasonably limit it with code.

I'm not a programmer, so I would defer to Don on the wisdom. But, I wonder if it would be easy to limit loading of AKE and AE ships to size 7 or larger ports.

That way, you could supply BB's at size 1 ports. But, when your AE ran out of supply, you'd need to send it to the main port to load again. Then again, some would complain that the 5" ammo could be loaded in a size 5 port. Or, 6" ammo could be loaded in a size 6 port. Oh well....

I'm sure this isn't as easy as my brain thinks it is......

One problem is that you then limit the smaller AKE's in their effort to rearm smaller ships. Would that cure be worse than the problem?

Well, those smaller ships could rearm their weapons at the smaller ports anyway. Would there be a benefit to the small AKE's loading supplies at smaller ports? If you had a size 3 port, they could rearm the AA ammo anyway. I'm looking at the issue of loading AKE's at size 3 ports to load 16" ammo.

The dynamics is what you are missing. 8" guns, for just one example, could be rearmed by AEs/AKEs at ports too small to do so (maybe even dot bases). But then, under your proposal, the AEs/AKEs would have to go find a port capable of rearming 16" guns to load more supplies just to reload 8" guns, 6" guns, or whatever.

It's true that the current code provides a limited modeling of the real situation. By definition all models have limitations and thereby problems. What you propose would also be limited and probably no better, actually maybe even worse than the current code.

(in reply to Bradley7735)

Post #: 14

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 10:39:02 PM

Bradley7735

Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

I understand what you're saying. But, my point is....

Lets assume we're talking two ports. Perth and Exmouth. Exmouth is a level 4 port. Perth is a level 7 (I don't know what they are in game, just bear with me..)

Perth can load all ammo. Exmouth can load up to 5" ammo. AKE's are located at Exmouth for the heavies (BB's and CA's or whatever.)

If the CA's can't load ammo at Exmouth, then the AKE's shouldn't be able to load supply at Exmouth and resupply the CA's.

Let's say Exmouth is a level 6 port, and Derby is a level 3. Now, the AKE's would have to travel to Perth to reload, not Exmouth. This is where your point comes into play. The AKEs should be able to load 8" ammo at Exmouth (assuming size 6 port), but will now need to go to Perth (7).

So, what is better? AKE's loading at Derby (3) and reloading everything? Or AKE's loading at Perth (7) and making it difficult to deal with 6" and 8" guns (cause Exmouth (6) is closer and a possibility.)

I don't know. It's just a point to discuss. Of course, it's a coding change, so unless it's super easy, Michael isn't doing it in the next patch.

_____________________________

The older I get, the better I was.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 15

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 10:58:10 PM

FatR

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Now I have to make sure all my AKEs actually have supplies on them and are in a TF, lol.

AKEs don't have to be in a TF to do their job. In fact, I pretty sure they only work when disbanded in a port. This actually slows the rearming process down, if it consumes large portions of an AKE's load (you'll need to put the AKE in a TF for a turn, so it can load more supplies).

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 16

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 11:04:35 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

Right. And with a Central Pacific offensive (depending upon who owns what) you could easily have all the AEs/AKEs needing to trudge back to Pearl Harbor as the closest safe passage.

I would like to add that if ammo were modeled in some historical way I would be fine with that. But, that's a major change that obviously isn't in the cards. Just as well, because it would require quite a code infrastructure to help the players manage it or else the game would be unplayable.

What we have now does have limitations, but it's pretty good.

(in reply to Bradley7735)

Post #: 17

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 11:12:17 PM

Rainer

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

I pretty sure they only work when disbanded in a port

No. When AKE is in a TF in port the TF to be resupplied must be so by "replenish at sea" (even if the whole procedure is going on at port).
If the AKE is disbanded you use "replenish from port".

_____________________________

WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta

(in reply to FatR)

Post #: 18

RE: AKE ships - 4/24/2011 11:57:22 PM

Arigoth

Posts: 57
Joined: 2/9/2011
Status: offline

I love a good can of worms! I seemed to have opened up a great one here.

(in reply to Arigoth)

Post #: 19

RE: AKE ships - 4/26/2011 12:45:57 AM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

Me too lol.

So let's see if my understanding of AKEs based on this thread is even close to how they actually work in the game.

1. AKEs must have supply on board (regardless of where the supply actually came from) to rearm a ship.
2. The AKEs must be at either a dot base or port (regardless of port size) to rearm.
3. If the AKE is in a TF, the TF that needs rearming should use the 'Replinsh at sea' function
4. If the AKE is disbanded in a Port (again regardless of size), the rearming TF will need to use 'Replinish at Port' function
5. The size of shells that can be rearmed is based on the cargo size of the AKE. Obviously the bigger the better.
6. Only the Allies can rearm 'at sea' (i.e. a non-port hex of any kind) and then only sometime in '44.

Did I miss anything?

What's funny is that until this thread popped up, I just let all my AKE sit in ports empty as Japan. I figured that just having them there (empty of course) was good enough. When certain ships would not ream, I figured that the AKE needed a combination of Port size AND size of the AKE. So I would just send the ships back to JApan as I KNEW they could rearnm there lol.

Thanks everyone for the education. I hope I passed

(in reply to Arigoth)

Post #: 20

RE: AKE ships - 4/26/2011 9:38:16 AM

janh

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Right. And with a Central Pacific offensive (depending upon who owns what) you could easily have all the AEs/AKEs needing to trudge back to Pearl Harbor as the closest safe passage.

I would like to add that if ammo were modeled in some historical way I would be fine with that. But, that's a major change that obviously isn't in the cards. Just as well, because it would require quite a code infrastructure to help the players manage it or else the game would be unplayable.

What we have now does have limitations, but it's pretty good.

Agree, within the limitations is as close as I have ever seen it in a game, and it is quite sufficient. Image tracking only the larger ordnance (>6") for rearming would be a bulkload of information. Maybe for some people that are more into the logistic side of things this could be fun, but I would consider it just more unnecessary micromanagement. If you wanted to go to that level if detail, you could as well ask for modeling bore lifetimes of these guns (or the land tubes, for that matter), which would much more limit players ability to use the battlewagons and cruisers so extensively than the AKE issue. Even if there was enough man time for coding this, I would be worried about AI getting just another disadvantage that it will struggle with.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 21

RE: AKE ships - 4/26/2011 4:44:02 PM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

I understand what you're saying. But, my point is....

Lets assume we're talking two ports. Perth and Exmouth. Exmouth is a level 4 port. Perth is a level 7 (I don't know what they are in game, just bear with me..)

Perth can load all ammo. Exmouth can load up to 5" ammo. AKE's are located at Exmouth for the heavies (BB's and CA's or whatever.)

If the CA's can't load ammo at Exmouth, then the AKE's shouldn't be able to load supply at Exmouth and resupply the CA's.

Let's say Exmouth is a level 6 port, and Derby is a level 3. Now, the AKE's would have to travel to Perth to reload, not Exmouth. This is where your point comes into play. The AKEs should be able to load 8" ammo at Exmouth (assuming size 6 port), but will now need to go to Perth (7).

So, what is better? AKE's loading at Derby (3) and reloading everything? Or AKE's loading at Perth (7) and making it difficult to deal with 6" and 8" guns (cause Exmouth (6) is closer and a possibility.)

I don't know. It's just a point to discuss. Of course, it's a coding change, so unless it's super easy, Michael isn't doing it in the next patch.

The difference is that the AKE has the equipment necessary (cranes, etc) to handle the larger ammunition that the port does not, so it can load the 16" ammunition from a smaller port than can the battleship itself.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Bradley7735)

Post #: 22

RE: AKE ships - 4/26/2011 6:29:35 PM

Panther Bait

Posts: 654
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline

If you were using supply from the small port to load the AKE to then load the BB, the current system works for me.

In that case, loading is a 2 step process.

Step 1 - From the beach to the AKE. This involves a lot of straining and some heavy equipment/rigging at the beach to get the ammo onto the AKE's lighters. Lighters get the ammo to the AKE in the lagoon/harbor/anchorage/whatever. AKE uses it's cranes to get the ammo on deck. ( in game AKE loads supply onto ship from the port).

Step 2 - AKE to BB. The AKE and BB move near one another. AKE uses cranes to load ammo onto BB in the appropriate manner.

What wouldn't really be possible would be to direct load from the beach (or a very small wooden pier) directly onto the BB, or even from a lighter to the BB. The necessary cranes, etc. just aren't present to lift the ammo from sea/beach level to the deck/loading hatch of the BB.

It's not perfect, but it works just fine in my eyes.

Mike

_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 23

RE: AKE ships - 4/26/2011 7:20:51 PM

Rainer

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

1. AKEs must have supply on board (regardless of where the supply actually came from) to rearm a ship.
2. The AKEs must be at either a dot base or port (regardless of port size) to rearm.
3. If the AKE is in a TF, the TF that needs rearming should use the 'Replinsh at sea' function
4. If the AKE is disbanded in a Port (again regardless of size), the rearming TF will need to use 'Replinish at Port' function
5. The size of shells that can be rearmed is based on the cargo size of the AKE. Obviously the bigger the better.
6. Only the Allies can rearm 'at sea' (i.e. a non-port hex of any kind) and then only sometime in '44.

Did I miss anything?

Be aware that even if all parameters are met the process of replenishment is still limited by available operation points of the port.
Meaning: a TF of, say, 3 BBs, will not be replenished fully at smaller ports in one turn. The process will need two or more turns to fully replenish the whole TF.
The message will say "TF xx could not be fully replenished because of ops limits" (or something like that). So the player is not in doubt why his TF is not fully replenished.

_____________________________

WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 24

RE: AKE ships - 4/26/2011 7:22:24 PM

Rainer

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

6. Only the Allies can rearm 'at sea' (i.e. a non-port hex of any kind) and then only sometime in '44.

Should read "sometime in '45."

_____________________________

WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 25

RE: AKE ships - 4/26/2011 7:46:53 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

Really all you needed was a safe anchorage. It did not need to be a port.

This photo is from the 1st World War but you get the idea.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Panther Bait)

Post #: 26

RE: AKE ships - 4/26/2011 11:55:14 PM

Arigoth

Posts: 57
Joined: 2/9/2011
Status: offline

Now let's add to the confusion. Does the "supply loaded on the ship" restriction apply to AS, AD, AV, etc also?

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 27

RE: AKE ships - 4/27/2011 12:08:08 AM

Rainer

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline

Yes.

_____________________________

WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta

(in reply to Arigoth)

Post #: 28

RE: AKE ships - 4/27/2011 6:53:10 AM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

So for them to function in their roles, they also need supply loaded? Can they be disbanded in port too or do they need to be in a TF?

No wonder nothing is working right in my game