RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered?

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RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/27/2011 3:49:13 PM

PeeDeeAitch

Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline

Wait a second, I thought this game I have been playing for the past five months was unplayable from the beginning?

Or is this a new unplayable that is different from the last unplayable that is still removed from the original unplayables?

I wish someone would figure this out so I could have fun!

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 31

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/27/2011 3:50:38 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

I have found that the green button has a magical way of increasing my enjoyment of both Witp and Wite.

I call it the Easy Green Button.......

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Post #: 32

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/27/2011 3:53:04 PM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Wait a second, I thought this game I have been playing for the past five months was unplayable from the beginning?

Or is this a new unplayable that is different from the last unplayable that is still removed from the original unplayables?

I wish someone would figure this out so I could have fun!

ROFLMAO

As usual with PDH's comments

. When I get sarcastic I just sound mean and obnoxious but when he does it the result is alway hilarious

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 33

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/27/2011 6:35:51 PM

cookie monster

Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline

Dont feed the trolls!

I do love them though. Constructive criticism is one thing, saying the games broke with no explanation is another.

Idiots are everywhere.

I will say this game is being patched quite a lot. There's maybe a bit of understatement there.

However once they get the engine sorted it will be smooth sailing for War in the West etc...

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 34

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 1:14:59 AM

mmarquo

Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline

"Of course but as Joel pointed out this rule creates a situation where wholesale abuse is stopped. Units on the Frontline shouldn't be able to receive the same benefits as rear-area units can do - more relaxed lifestyle, quarters, R&R, Training, 'creature comforts' etc "

Of course I agree with this; and the rules do imply that refit is better back in the rear on a rail hex. I also agree with the new rule: units need to be pulled out of line to be refit - how else could it be done?

Well in the game one could always lower the TOE of noncritical units and keep the TOE level high in critical frontline units - this I assume would siphon replacements to frontline units with the higher TOE %.

Marquo

(in reply to cookie monster)

Post #: 35

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 8:10:48 AM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Why is it every post that asserts the game is unplayable is from a poster with less than 5 posts whose screen name lends itself to the notion that they are nazi sympathizers?

You guys don't need a game. You need a time machine.

I'm not sure you can surmise a person's politics or much from a name ( where does that leave me in your estimation?) but I agree with the sentiment that assertions of unplayability do seem to come from those who may simply not yet have worked out how to play their preferred side properly.

Maybe I should have posted that the game was unplayable after my 1st attempt at GC41 as Germans. I gave up after 3 turns thinking Minsk was going to be a stretch target before the mud hit.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 4/28/2011 9:53:10 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 9:29:01 AM

Aditia

Posts: 573
Joined: 3/27/2011
Status: offline

Refit mode was a tool for players to prioritize frontline reinforcements. With the ability gone to do it for frontline units because of other refit effects (I am reading that right yeah?) wouldn't it make sense to have a separate mode to lower the priority for some units without having to put them in static mode? I understand the game balance issues, I don't understand removing the flixibility of a commander to direct priority for reinforcements.

Directing priority for reinforcements seems like a very basic tool for me in a modern wargame. Removing that option seems unnecessarily rigid to me

< Message edited by Aditia -- 4/28/2011 9:31:09 AM >

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 37

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 11:33:41 AM

mmarquo

Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline

Aditia,

No need for static mode - simple lower the TOE for noncritical uniots and raise it for critical ones.

(in reply to Aditia)

Post #: 38

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 11:34:39 AM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Why is it every post that asserts the game is unplayable is from a poster with less than 5 posts whose screen name lends itself to the notion that they are nazi sympathizers?

You guys don't need a game. You need a time machine.

I'm not sure you can surmise a person's politics or much from a name ( where does that leave me in your estimation?) but I agree with the sentiment that assertions of unplayability do seem to come from those who may simply not yet have worked out how to play their preferred side properly.

It is striking that every poster with little or no apparent playing experience who says the game is unplayable because rule x is wrong seems to see it from the German perspective! I have yet to see a post like for example "The rules on isolation are too hard on the Soviets, this game is unplayable" from poster "Vlasov" with 1 post.

(in reply to sillyflower)

Post #: 39

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 12:23:55 PM

amatteucci

Posts: 389
Joined: 5/14/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
It is striking that every poster with little or no apparent playing experience who says the game is unplayable because rule x is wrong seems to see it from the German perspective! I have yet to see a post like for example "The rules on isolation are too hard on the Soviets, this game is unplayable" from poster "Vlasov" with 1 post.

This because user Vlasov, after that disappointment with the isolation rules, started to play as the Axis and changed his username to ROA. Then he complained that the game is broken because there's no way for the German player to utilize captured Soviet manpower!

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 40

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 1:40:34 PM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
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From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
It is striking that every poster with little or no apparent playing experience who says the game is unplayable because rule x is wrong seems to see it from the German perspective! I have yet to see a post like for example "The rules on isolation are too hard on the Soviets, this game is unplayable" from poster "Vlasov" with 1 post.

This because user Vlasov, after that disappointment with the isolation rules, started to play as the Axis and changed his username to ROA. Then he complained that the game is broken because there's no way for the German player to utilize captured Soviet manpower!

Great! Glad somebody got the hidden joke!

(in reply to amatteucci)

Post #: 41

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 5:16:01 PM

Chris21wen

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline

I might have missed this in the manual but does a unit suffer in combat if attacked when it's not ready (E.g. refit)? They should. If they do then its totally up to the player to make sure his unready units are not on the front line.

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 42

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 6:36:41 PM

Aditia

Posts: 573
Joined: 3/27/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Aditia,

No need for static mode - simple lower the TOE for noncritical uniots and raise it for critical ones.

Yes, I enjoy spending extra time micro managing stuff

(in reply to mmarquo)

Post #: 43

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 7:18:27 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Aditia,

No need for static mode - simple lower the TOE for noncritical uniots and raise it for critical ones.

Yes, I enjoy spending extra time micro managing stuff

2-words
Commander's Report

_____________________________

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Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
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(in reply to Aditia)

Post #: 44

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 10:02:14 PM

johnnyvagas

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/28/2011
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quote:

Tarhunnas said: It is striking that every poster with little or no apparent playing experience who says the game is unplayable because rule x is wrong seems to see it from the German perspective! I have yet to see a post like for example "The rules on isolation are too hard on the Soviets, this game is unplayable" from poster "Vlasov" with 1 post.

It would be striking if this were actually true. Re read Heliudovus's whinny post about Hq buildup, or olegs crying about "nazi supermen".

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 45

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 10:51:00 PM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnyvagas

quote:

Tarhunnas said: It is striking that every poster with little or no apparent playing experience who says the game is unplayable because rule x is wrong seems to see it from the German perspective! I have yet to see a post like for example "The rules on isolation are too hard on the Soviets, this game is unplayable" from poster "Vlasov" with 1 post.

It would be striking if this were actually true. Re read Heliudovus's whinny post about Hq buildup, or olegs crying about "nazi supermen".

Both of them have posted several hundred posts, apparently have playing experience and can support what they say with arguments and logic. And none of them have, as far as I know, pronounced the game unplayable on the grounds of a single rule. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and even some whining on occasion, but that is very far from posting once and pronouncing the game unplayable because of a single rule.

(in reply to johnnyvagas)

Post #: 46

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/28/2011 11:41:16 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnyvagas

quote:

Tarhunnas said: It is striking that every poster with little or no apparent playing experience who says the game is unplayable because rule x is wrong seems to see it from the German perspective! I have yet to see a post like for example "The rules on isolation are too hard on the Soviets, this game is unplayable" from poster "Vlasov" with 1 post.

It would be striking if this were actually true. Re read Heliudovus's whinny post about Hq buildup, or olegs crying about "nazi supermen".

Both of them have posted several hundred posts, apparently have playing experience and can support what they say with arguments and logic. And none of them have, as far as I know, pronounced the game unplayable on the grounds of a single rule. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and even some whining on occasion, but that is very far from posting once and pronouncing the game unplayable because of a single rule.

+1
especially the 'some whining on occasion' part.

People who refer to something as 'unplayable' are, as I read it, trying to call someone incompetent or worse, a fraud. They're trying to invalidate someone, and in the case of WitE, they're trying to invalidate what Matrix has done here. If you can't see that Matrix has released a truly ground-breaking and awesome product, you're not really a reasonable person as I use the term 'reasonable.'

If that's not what you mean, try substituting the term 'broken' for 'unplayable' and you'll be perceived as less harsh. There are still some things in the game that need repair or change. The First Winter rules were proved 'broken' and a major patch has addressed that. We're all still waiting on a better, more realistically modeled air war. But it doesn't make the game unplayable.

I also wonder if any of the (not speaking to you specifically) 'unplayable' crowd are even bothering to play versus human beings. I've played a bunch of people, all of whom have been cool and helped me learn things as we played. It added to the enjoyment, and where there were problems, a good opponent will acknowledge them and agree to 'house rules' to avoid exploiting the games existing problems.

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Post #: 47

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/29/2011 12:18:08 AM

PeeDeeAitch

Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline

I am pretty sure that whem my PBEM opponents put up a coherant and thought out defense the game becomes unplayable and broken.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 48

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/29/2011 12:34:27 AM

Aditia

Posts: 573
Joined: 3/27/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I am pretty sure that whem my PBEM opponents put up a coherant and thought out defense the game becomes unplayable and broken.

it's coherent

<3

(hides in corner)

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 49

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/29/2011 2:08:26 AM

PeeDeeAitch

Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aditia

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I am pretty sure that whem my PBEM opponents put up a coherant and thought out defense the game becomes unplayable and broken.

it's coherent

<3

(hides in corner)

Your use of the little heart thingy totally ruins your grammar/spelling naziism. -1 points, return to Go, do not collect 200 dollars.

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to Aditia)

Post #: 50

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/29/2011 3:36:46 AM

mmarquo

Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline

"Yes, I enjoy spending extra time micro managing stuff"

Yeah, I know, the game is broken because I do not want to spend the time needed to play it correctly.

Marquo

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 51

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/29/2011 4:15:49 AM

Scook_99

Posts: 301
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline

What is this thread about again?

I now have it in my mind to describe Sillyflower's politics based on his user name. I see a little British girl on stage dressed as a daisy saying, "it's all about the Schwerpunkt, silly!"

Edit:
After re-reading the title of the thread, it is most proper for units of both Germany and the USSR to be pulled off the line for refit. Germany would leave their units up front until bled dry (remnants) then pull them off the line for refit. I do believe USSR pretty much did the same, as many units suffered heavy casualties and they had to sort out who was left. 1944+ it would be more appropriate for the Soviets to have a system similar to the USA (refitting/replacements on the front) when they streamlined their system (ie, we don't have quite so many men left).

< Message edited by Scook_99 -- 4/29/2011 4:23:28 AM >

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Post #: 52

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/30/2011 2:16:33 AM

johnnyvagas

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/28/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I am pretty sure that whem my PBEM opponents put up a coherant and thought out defense the game becomes unplayable and broken.

No doubt.

Although I recall you complaining about the defense modifiers associated with swamp hexes some months back. Was this a game related code error, or something to do with your opponents ability to play? Turns out it was a code error. But Had 2by3 indicated swamps defense modifiers were WAD in the as released form of the game than I reckon by your logic we would have to chalk up you inability to crack open swamp defenses to your poor playing abilities.

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 53

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/30/2011 3:05:34 AM

johnnyvagas

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/28/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnyvagas

quote:

Tarhunnas said: It is striking that every poster with little or no apparent playing experience who says the game is unplayable because rule x is wrong seems to see it from the German perspective! I have yet to see a post like for example "The rules on isolation are too hard on the Soviets, this game is unplayable" from poster "Vlasov" with 1 post.

It would be striking if this were actually true. Re read Heliudovus's whinny post about Hq buildup, or olegs crying about "nazi supermen".

Both of them have posted several hundred posts, apparently have playing experience and can support what they say with arguments and logic. And none of them have, as far as I know, pronounced the game unplayable on the grounds of a single rule. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and even some whining on occasion, but that is very far from posting once and pronouncing the game unplayable because of a single rule.

You seem to put a large amount of stock into the volume of forum posting from a person. Some of us low volume-ers� have actually had War in the East for sometime, but don�t spend a great deal of our free time accumulating posts on internet forums. But that�s beside the point.

Application of military art or military science to military problems should transcend having to learn how to survive within a specific simulation environment. If this is false, than it is an indication that something may be wrong with the simulation. Or it might be an indication that the simulation isn�t really a simulation. And it�s OK for a game to be a game, and it�s OK for players to be gamey when playing a game.

If War in the East is being offered as a simple form of entertainment, than I agree with you that in order to succeed within this particular form of entertainment we will need to play it over and over again so that we understand the rules of the virtual world 2by3 has created. Maybe we need to rack up large numbers of postings on this forum as well. But if what we are doing is playing a game, than maybe it�s risky to name this form of entertainment War in the East. Call it a Wargame that takes place on a map that resembles the Soviet Union in 1941. That very simple game alteration might succeed in keeping out what you seem to feel is forum riff-raff. The �Isn�t it striking� category of forum posters.

If on the other hand the authors of this game are researching an event and attempting to portray the event through simulation of the event, than the lessons from that event should be applicable. Yes, No, Maybe?

Swamps are broke! No they aren�t. You just don�t know how to play the game. What�s that you say? Swamps ARE actually broke. I'll be darned.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 54

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/30/2011 3:26:59 AM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

You seem to put a large amount of stock into the volume of forum posting from a person. Some of us low volume-ers� have actually had War in the East for sometime, but don�t spend a great deal of our free time accumulating posts on internet forums. But that�s beside the point.

No, it's not. Because no one has any way of assessing your knowledge of the game without seeing how you play it. That requires some communication. That's fine if that isn't your cup of tea, but don't get pissy if you blast the game here and get some rejoinder from those who have been sharing their thoughts and playing habits for a while. If you can't see the issue, that's just your own little blind spot.

_____________________________

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Post #: 55

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/30/2011 3:05:33 PM

johnnyvagas

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/28/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

You seem to put a large amount of stock into the volume of forum posting from a person. Some of us low volume-ers� have actually had War in the East for sometime, but don�t spend a great deal of our free time accumulating posts on internet forums. But that�s beside the point.

No, it's not. Because no one has any way of assessing your knowledge of the game without seeing how you play it. That requires some communication. That's fine if that isn't your cup of tea, but don't get pissy if you blast the game here and get some rejoinder from those who have been sharing their thoughts and playing habits for a while. If you can't see the issue, that's just your own little blind spot.

Did I blast the game? In which of my posts did I do that? I think I am blasting the attitude of some of the forum posters. Low volume poster = game blaster?

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 56

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/30/2011 7:46:17 PM

Wild

Posts: 364
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnyvagas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

You seem to put a large amount of stock into the volume of forum posting from a person. Some of us low volume-ers� have actually had War in the East for sometime, but don�t spend a great deal of our free time accumulating posts on internet forums. But that�s beside the point.

No, it's not. Because no one has any way of assessing your knowledge of the game without seeing how you play it. That requires some communication. That's fine if that isn't your cup of tea, but don't get pissy if you blast the game here and get some rejoinder from those who have been sharing their thoughts and playing habits for a while. If you can't see the issue, that's just your own little blind spot.

Did I blast the game? In which of my posts did I do that? I think I am blasting the attitude of some of the forum posters. Low volume poster = game blaster?

jonnyvagas, i apologize for some of my forum compatriots.

It is true that forum post count should have no bearing on anything.

It's just that there are some people who's first posts here are to complain that the game is broken,(more often than not for the Germans)and this can get extremely tiresome after awhile.

I would point out that it is not only people with low post count that do this.

Anyway, welcome to the forum.

edit: I am not accusing you of being one of the people slamming the game.

< Message edited by Wild -- 4/30/2011 7:54:20 PM >

(in reply to johnnyvagas)

Post #: 57

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 4/30/2011 11:39:10 PM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

What is this thread about again?

I now have it in my mind to describe Sillyflower's politics based on his user name. I see a little British girl on stage dressed as a daisy saying, "it's all about the Schwerpunkt, silly!"

Actually Sillyflower is my LOTRO char, based on my wife (who has been on the stage) who is perfect ( for me) in every way. However the perfection doesn't extend to knowing when WWII was let alone what a schwethingy is. On the other hand she can tell the make, year and price of any dress at 100 yards. How many of you can do that for every WWII AFV?

In Heliodorus' terms, my politics must be to support the Lazy Party as I couldn't be bothered to think up a different name.

H obviously is onto something after all

_____________________________

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Post #: 58

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 5/1/2011 2:47:05 PM

Wikingus

Posts: 167
Joined: 9/26/2010
Status: offline

So with these new rules, if I want to fill up a beat up panzer division, I should ideally move it way back from the frontline, preferably on a nice green rail hex?

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Post #: 59

RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? - 5/1/2011 6:02:41 PM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wikingus

So with these new rules, if I want to fill up a beat up panzer division, I should ideally move it way back from the frontline, preferably on a nice green rail hex?

adjacent will do I believe

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Post #: 60