1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered?

1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (Full Version)

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carnifex -> 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/25/2011 3:42:26 PM)
Was there a problem with the Refit mode? Because with the latest patch it effectively removes that mode from the German side, which keeps it's entire combat force adjacent to enemy held hexes throughout the game. The Soviets, on the other hand, with their ability to buy empty units, can use the mode to rapidly fill up those units. Were the Germans overpowered that they had to have this mode neutered on them?

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/25/2011 4:19:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: carnifex Was there a problem with the Refit mode? Because with the latest patch it effectively removes that mode from the German side, which keeps it's entire combat force adjacent to enemy held hexes throughout the game. The Soviets, on the other hand, with their ability to buy empty units, can use the mode to rapidly fill up those units. Were the Germans overpowered that they had to have this mode neutered on them? I had most of my panzers on refit all the time, which kind of made it a bit silly. I like the change, I think refit mode should be for resting away from the front, and both sides did that historically with worn out units. Though I admit I have not played long enough with 1.04 to really be able to judge the effects.

hfarrish -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/25/2011 4:55:26 PM)
I think the problem is when you get to 43 and beyond, it puts the Germans in an impossible bind, since any unit that has to defend against a Soviet attack will need to be refit the next turn, but with any kind of sustained combat you either have to give up ahistorically large amounts of territory to get your men back to where they can refit or just leave them on the front until they totally collapse. The Soviet player is able to attack all over the front with a level of frequency that there is no real ability to be resting reserves in the rear.

carnifex -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/25/2011 6:59:42 PM)
I saw refit mode simply as being a way to prioritize reinforcements to particular areas which I think the High Command should be able to do at whim. I mean that's like basic command staff functionality - send 50% more men and supplies to this sector or that. Now I can't do that without pulling men out of the line, and as the German the ONLY units I have not adjacent to enemy are garrison units and it pretty much stays that way for ever. I don't have all these "spare" units - if I pull someone out of the line for refit the Soviets will just pour through. I don't know. I see this change as crippling to the German ability to direct the flow of replacements and it's not like the AAR forum is full of these "OMG teh Germans steamrolled us again" posts.

Speedysteve -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/25/2011 7:29:22 PM)
On the flip side to this it's easy for the SU player to put all of their units on Refit to attempt to raise their Morale (Experience) upto 50 by using Refit mode. This prevents them from doing this wholesale as the frontline units won't be getting the refit benefits like that anymore...........

heliodorus04 -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/25/2011 8:22:43 PM)
For the Soviet, there's huge abuse potential, one concrete example from my recent game: Odessa wasn't attacked until turn 8. I had 3 rifle divisions holding Odessa, more than 15 hexes away from the actual front line (and their HQ). Place them all on Refit. Turn 8 they're attacked, hold. They refit reasonable amounts - not exploitive really because they were supplied by sea, so it wasn't a huge replacement step. Turn 9, I put them on refit. All 3 route. Front line is more than probably 10 hexes away, across the Dnepr toward the Crimea. Also on Turn 9, random Romanian cavalry cross the Dnepr. My 3 infantry divisions on refit all route during the German turn to just north of the Crimea entrance-hex. On my turn, they are all rallied, at about 75% TOE, and can promptly cut off and isolate Romanian cav that on the German player turn was more than 10 hexes away. As a Soviet player, I would put Unready units right next to German panzers just to make the panzers have to waste 3 MP. If I put the Infantry on Refit, often it would route, rally, and be stronger than it was at the start of the last turn. The refit+route effect is a huge teleportation & resupply gimmick. I realize part of this post is a critique of routes (which I don't think we can effectively change without major play balance consequences for the Soviet in 41/German in 43-45). Refit needed to be changed a little, but I agree with the German players that this has a stronger negative play-balance effect on them by virtue of the contact they MUST maintain with Soviet units.

carnifex -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/25/2011 8:54:31 PM)
Not having played the Soviets as much I was not aware of how refit could be abused.

Speedysteve -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/25/2011 9:07:13 PM)
Indeed. Refit Mode benefits the SU more than the Axis IMO due to the point mentioned above they can 'artificially' use it to increase the morale/EXP of their generally low valued Units. For the Axis the same benefit isn't there as their Units are generally at the top of the their game well above their National Morale level.

mmarquo -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 12:32:49 AM)
Per the manual there is nothing artificial about using refit to increase morale/EXP; in fact this recommended.

DTurtle -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 1:22:34 AM)
Speedy was probably pointing at 9.1.1 in the manual: quote: The morale of a unit may also increase during the friendly logistics phase due to any and all of the following circumstances: The unit’s morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.

Joel Billings -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 2:02:06 AM)
Yes, training units via refit is recommended, but we felt it was overpowered in that it was more rightfully intended for units not on the front lines. Replacements should come to units not in refit mode, just slower. It will be useful to rotate units out of the line in order to quickly rebuild them and get the latest/greatest equipment. It is a major change that we think moves in the right direction.

mmarquo -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 3:43:13 AM)
Joel, Per the post above, "The refit+route effect is a huge teleportation & resupply gimmick." [:(] Obviously this has to stop asap; solution: all routed units go to unready status which can't subsequently be changed during the same turn; thanks for considering this. Marquo [;)]

heliodorus04 -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 4:16:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marquo Joel, Per the post above, "The refit+route effect is a huge teleportation & resupply gimmick." [:(] Obviously this has to stop asap; solution: all routed units go to unready status which can't subsequently be changed during the same turn; thanks for considering this. Marquo [;)] Yeah, I was the OP of the first quote there, and I got to thinking about something: Even the 1.04 version of Refit still allows my Odessa example to refit fully under the new rule, because after routing, you will be (you in fact WANT to be) behind friendly lines (you probably will be if it's not Turns 1-6) thus the refit still works. As I said before, I don't think we can change the Route mechanics without seriously affecting game balance. But route+refit is still better than EITHER route or refit while in contact of the enemy. Thus, all the more reason to put Unready units at the front, set them to Refit, and wait for the German to kindly bounce them for you.

mmarquo -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 4:27:56 AM)
[8\|]

Joel Billings -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 6:36:18 AM)
According to the rules, routed units don't receive replacements, and the rally phase happens after the replacement phase. What am I missing here? If these rules are working, I don't see an exploit? Maybe they aren't working. Do you have saves for cases where a routed unit gets stronger (not just from damaged elements becoming ready, but from getting replacements and thus getting larger)?

Speedysteve -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 7:34:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marquo Per the manual there is nothing artificial about using refit to increase morale/EXP; in fact this recommended. Of course but as Joel pointed out this rule creates a situation where wholesale abuse is stopped. Units on the Frontline shouldn't be able to receive the same benefits as rear-area units can do - more relaxed lifestyle, quarters, R&R, Training, 'creature comforts' etc

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 1:36:59 PM)
Thank god my Romanian garrison units will still be 6 CV by spring of 1942! (I prefer to see the bright side in things)

kevini1000 -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 2:22:53 PM)
I don't understand this I was able to put my units in refit mode adjacent to Russian units. Sath

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 2:34:03 PM)
While you can be in refit mode, the units do not gain the benefits if in contact with the enemy as far as I know.

Sabre21 -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 2:34:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sath I don't understand this I was able to put my units in refit mode adjacent to Russian units. Sath You can still put the units in refit while adjacent to enemy controlled hexes, they just don't receive the benefits of being in refit.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 2:37:25 PM)
Score! I totally beat Sabre to the response. Chalk one up for Wyoming.

marty_01 -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 5:00:09 PM)
I just learned something new about old versions of WiTE with this thread. I had always assumed that refit in the old version only kicked in when a unit wasnt adjacent\in the ZOC of an enemy unit. Whenever I used the refit setting it was for units I had pulled out of the line for rest\whoring. I think I like the new 1.04 version of refit. Seems more appropriate.

JAMiAM -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 5:24:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch Score! I totally beat Sabre to the response. Chalk one up for Wyoming. He's snowed in today, and moving a bit slowly...[:D]

Mynok -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 7:24:01 PM)
It will be interesting to see how this effects my '43 campaign vs Oleg. The Germans were already on shaky ground even while using the old refit rules.

fiva55 -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/26/2011 10:48:35 PM)
Though without doubt a much better presentation of reality, the new refit rules makes life a lot harder for the germans post 41. I have noticed that it has become increasingly hard to refit unready units enough to let them go to ready status again.

randallw -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/27/2011 7:03:38 AM)
This change may help the Soviets later on, but will help the Axis earlier, with less Soviet units being able to refit. Yes, the Axis units in in contact won't be able to refit but the Soviets in contact lose out on both replacements and the 1 point morale gain.

Gewehr43 -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/27/2011 7:56:48 AM)
The Soviets are already too strong, this, and the new Uberpartisans, among other things still leave the game basically unplayable five months after release.

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/27/2011 8:41:06 AM)
A lot of things have changed in 1.04 that will affect both sides. There is a lot of theorizing going on here, I think many of us are somewhat prone to getting up on the soapbox on purely theoretical grounds (including me occasionaly). I would say that the total impact of the changes in the 42 or 43 scenario is hard to gauge without actual playtesting. No doubt some of the changes will affect balance one way or the other, but in many cases maybe in unexpected ways and they may well cancel each other out. I am somewhat sated on the 42 campaign after my latest 70-turn bout, and currently busy with two 41-GC, but it would be very interesting to see an AAR of a 42 or 43 GC using 1.04. Until then, I would say the jury is basically out.

Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/27/2011 8:50:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gewehr43 The Soviets are already too strong, this, and the new Uberpartisans, among other things still leave the game basically unplayable five months after release. That is a bit sweeping I would say. Sure, some things might need adjustment, but the game is eminently playable. I have played 100+ turns of PBEM both as Germans and Soviets, and I have had great fun!

heliodorus04 -> RE: 1.04 Beta: Why was Refit mode neutered? (4/27/2011 3:30:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gewehr43 The Soviets are already too strong, this, and the new Uberpartisans, among other things still leave the game basically unplayable five months after release. Why is it every post that asserts the game is unplayable is from a poster with less than 5 posts whose screen name lends itself to the notion that they are nazi sympathizers? You guys don't need a game. You need a time machine.

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