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RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 6:14:02 PM   
fodder


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Status: offline 		Better dead than alive.

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)
Post #: 31
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 6:23:17 PM   
Canoerebel


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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 5/2/2011 6:24:06 PM >

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Post #: 32
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 6:47:25 PM   
Kubel


Posts: 131
Joined: 11/4/2007
From: Canadian mosquito infested swamp
Status: offline 		Well done US.
But I'm sure since he recieved a burial at sea the conspiracy theories will be rampant at any minute.

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"Our profession should always be crowned by heroic death in battle" Generalfeldmarschall Fedor von Bock

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Post #: 33
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 6:58:18 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Do you remember the day the towers came down?..It was a shock to all of us......and seeing all those innocent people jumping from those windows to get away from the heat.......The dedication of all those poor first-responders who lost their lives trying to save those people..........The World Trade Center was NOT just American....the victims were from many countries and every race and religion on earth........

bin Laden declared war on all of us, for his ideologies..What an ego....

The world needed to see his head on the end of a very long pike.....heading a parade of our armed forces.......coming up the middle of Fifth Avenue, New York City...........



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Post #: 34
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 6:58:50 PM   
jeffk3510


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

in the words of Brian Wilson, aka The Beard...Got him!!!







Have him on my fantasy bb team.. Have you seen interviews with him? This guy is hilarious.

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(in reply to Kwik E Mart)
Post #: 35
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 7:09:35 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The world needed to see his head on the end of a very long pike.....heading a parade of our armed forces.......coming up the middle of Fifth Avenue, New York City...........




We're better than that; we aren't Imperial Rome. He was trash. He got treated as such.

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The Moose

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Post #: 36
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 7:19:22 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Plus, putting his head on a pike would simply have inflamed a new generation of possible recruits.

Right now the US has DNA evidence and pictures which will be released pretty soon. Burying him at sea is permissible in Islam IF:
a) the person dies at sea
b) there is a prospect of the person being dug up/mutilated etc if buried on land.

So, even in terms of burying him at sea they have cover in terms of the Quran - which is important since you defeat this sort of terrorism not by killing endless people but by drying up the pool of recruits or, at the very least, not increasing the pool of recruits.

The reality here is that the end result is what counts. Putting his head on a pike would simply have resulted in more Western/non-AQ deaths in the long-term and isn't worth it.


Glad to see him gone though.

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Post #: 37
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 7:24:12 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

So, even in terms of burying him at sea they have cover in terms of the Quran - which is important since you defeat this sort of terrorism not by killing endless people but by drying up the pool of recruits or, at the very least, not increasing the pool of recruits.



Absolutley.

And, although I haven't heard any detials, I'm guessing that the burial at sea wasn't a dumping, but a proper Islamic burial. The Navy Chaplain's Corps includes Muslim chaplains and has for years. I'd bet, with the planning that went into this, that one was aboard the carrier for just this purpose, and at the proper time these details will be shared with the world.


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The Moose

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Post #: 38
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 7:42:58 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		What I find intresting is what they are NOT saying. They used SEAL team six, which is the hostage rescue team (equivalent to the Army's Delta force). Also, despite it being a SEAL team, that evacted to the USS Carl Vinson , the op used BLACKHAWK helicopters. That means US Army. (The USN uses Seahawks, the USAF uses Night Hawks and Pave Hawks, the USMC doesn't use that type at all).

Could The 160th SOAR have been used? Or some other unit ? I notice that in the photo the wreckage is painted OD, which suggests US Army. Anybody else pick up anything?

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Post #: 39
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 7:45:29 PM   
AW1Steve


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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

So, even in terms of burying him at sea they have cover in terms of the Quran - which is important since you defeat this sort of terrorism not by killing endless people but by drying up the pool of recruits or, at the very least, not increasing the pool of recruits.



Absolutley.

And, although I haven't heard any detials, I'm guessing that the burial at sea wasn't a dumping, but a proper Islamic burial. The Navy Chaplain's Corps includes Muslim chaplains and has for years. I'd bet, with the planning that went into this, that one was aboard the carrier for just this purpose, and at the proper time these details will be shared with the world.



With a carrier strike group , the odds are they already had a Muslim chaplain. They are a lot more common now. It's Jewish that are rare. And Catholic is becoming rarer ( due to the worldwide shortage of Catholic priests , the church isn't providing many to the Military).

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Post #: 40
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 7:51:46 PM   
USSAmerica


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From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kubel

Well done US.
But I'm sure since he recieved a burial at sea the conspiracy theories will be rampant at any minute.


It wouldn't change anything for the tin foil cap crowd if his body was paraded to every one of their living rooms. This way there is no grave site that can be used as a rallying point to inspire additional crazies to attack civilization.

_____________________________

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


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(in reply to Kubel)
Post #: 41
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 7:53:45 PM   
USSAmerica


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From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The world needed to see his head on the end of a very long pike.....heading a parade of our armed forces.......coming up the middle of Fifth Avenue, New York City...........




We're better than that; we aren't Imperial Rome. He was trash. He got treated as such.


"Sponson 6 is open for the dumping of trash."

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 42
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 7:58:36 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		According to the reports, it was a JSOC op. Don't think ST-6 has integral air transport, so I think maybe an element of 160th SOAR?

Wouldn't that be a kick? The Army provides lift for a Navy ground op. You gotta love these guys!!

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Post #: 43
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 7:58:56 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The world needed to see his head on the end of a very long pike.....heading a parade of our armed forces.......coming up the middle of Fifth Avenue, New York City...........




We're better than that; we aren't Imperial Rome. He was trash. He got treated as such.


"Sponson 6 is open for the dumping of trash."



Ouche. That's cold. But good! Do you suppose they need the EPA to sign off?

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Post #: 44
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 8:00:40 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

What I find intresting is what they are NOT saying. They used SEAL team six, which is the hostage rescue team (equivalent to the Army's Delta force). Also, despite it being a SEAL team, that evacted to the USS Carl Vinson , the op used BLACKHAWK helicopters. That means US Army. (The USN uses Seahawks, the USAF uses Night Hawks and Pave Hawks, the USMC doesn't use that type at all).

Could The 160th SOAR have been used? Or some other unit ? I notice that in the photo the wreckage is painted OD, which suggests US Army. Anybody else pick up anything?


Just recently listening the the White House staffer in charge of counter terrorism give a press conference, something tweaked my radar. He described the strike force taking measures to ensure they would not be attacked by any Pakistani AF jets, because no one in the Pakistani government or military was informed they were going. They flew from somewhere to this compound and then all the way out of the country without being detected or intercepted. If the point of origin/return was the sea, then they basically flew across the entire country, in and again out. I think there were considerably more aircraft involved than a couple of USA Blackhawk Helicopters.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 45
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 8:01:11 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

According to the reports, it was a JSOC op. Don't think ST-6 has integral air transport, so I think maybe an element of 160th SOAR?

Wouldn't that be a kick? The Army provides lift for a Navy ground op. You gotta love these guys!!


My understanding is one of the two CSAR squadrons was to take on that duty (part of the justification for forming them). But if it is ARMY, I'd be glad to see it. Maybe we can put the Ghosts of desert one finally to rest. Real/joint/functioning/OPS.

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Post #: 46
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 8:02:10 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

According to the reports, it was a JSOC op. Don't think ST-6 has integral air transport, so I think maybe an element of 160th SOAR?

Wouldn't that be a kick? The Army provides lift for a Navy ground op. You gotta love these guys!!


They couldn't care less who is driving the taxi.

The number I've heard on TV is two dozen SEAL's. I think they were ready to handle anything they found there.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 47
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 8:05:14 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

What I find intresting is what they are NOT saying. They used SEAL team six, which is the hostage rescue team (equivalent to the Army's Delta force). Also, despite it being a SEAL team, that evacted to the USS Carl Vinson , the op used BLACKHAWK helicopters. That means US Army. (The USN uses Seahawks, the USAF uses Night Hawks and Pave Hawks, the USMC doesn't use that type at all).

Could The 160th SOAR have been used? Or some other unit ? I notice that in the photo the wreckage is painted OD, which suggests US Army. Anybody else pick up anything?


Just recently listening the the White House staffer in charge of counter terrorism give a press conference, something tweaked my radar. He described the strike force taking measures to ensure they would not be attacked by any Pakistani AF jets, because no one in the Pakistani government or military was informed they were going. They flew from somewhere to this compound and then all the way out of the country without being detected or intercepted. If the point of origin/return was the sea, then they basically flew across the entire country, in and again out. I think there were considerably more aircraft involved than a couple of USA Blackhawk Helicopters.



Of that I have no doubt. But From Afganistan to the CV would be a very long flight unrefueled. So it might be a truly multi service OP. USN SEALS flown by 160 SOAR, refueled by USMC MC or KC-130's to a USN CV. And no doubt J-STAR , AWACS and RIVET JOINT (provided by the USAF) providing electronic control and cover. Truly a fully joint OP. I'll be watching "The Strategy Page" over the next few days for the "rest of the story".

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Post #: 48
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 8:06:37 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

According to the reports, it was a JSOC op. Don't think ST-6 has integral air transport, so I think maybe an element of 160th SOAR?

Wouldn't that be a kick? The Army provides lift for a Navy ground op. You gotta love these guys!!


They couldn't care less who is driving the taxi.

The number I've heard on TV is two dozen SEAL's. I think they were ready to handle anything they found there.


Actually they do. They have since 1983 when an unnamed service dropped a SEAL team TOO far out to sea and most of them drowned off Grenada.

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Post #: 49
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 8:17:34 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Of that I have no doubt. But From Afganistan to the CV would be a very long flight unrefueled. So it might be a truly multi service OP. USN SEALS flown by 160 SOAR, refueled by USMC MC or KC-130's to a USN CV. And no doubt J-STAR , AWACS and RIVET JOINT (provided by the USAF) providing electronic control and cover. Truly a fully joint OP. I'll be watching "The Strategy Page" over the next few days for the "rest of the story".

Quite agree. An honest to gosh joint op that got it right. I think we are learning. Aviation Week will likely have pictures of the damn birds and interviews with the pilots. Do think you and Mike are right. There was some e-cover running. Maybe for once the airfarce got it right too. You gotta love it when a plan comes together.

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Post #: 50
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 8:31:35 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

What I find intresting is what they are NOT saying. They used SEAL team six, which is the hostage rescue team (equivalent to the Army's Delta force). Also, despite it being a SEAL team, that evacted to the USS Carl Vinson , the op used BLACKHAWK helicopters. That means US Army. (The USN uses Seahawks, the USAF uses Night Hawks and Pave Hawks, the USMC doesn't use that type at all).

Could The 160th SOAR have been used? Or some other unit ? I notice that in the photo the wreckage is painted OD, which suggests US Army. Anybody else pick up anything?


Just recently listening the the White House staffer in charge of counter terrorism give a press conference, something tweaked my radar. He described the strike force taking measures to ensure they would not be attacked by any Pakistani AF jets, because no one in the Pakistani government or military was informed they were going. They flew from somewhere to this compound and then all the way out of the country without being detected or intercepted. If the point of origin/return was the sea, then they basically flew across the entire country, in and again out. I think there were considerably more aircraft involved than a couple of USA Blackhawk Helicopters.



Of that I have no doubt. But From Afganistan to the CV would be a very long flight unrefueled. So it might be a truly multi service OP. USN SEALS flown by 160 SOAR, refueled by USMC MC or KC-130's to a USN CV. And no doubt J-STAR , AWACS and RIVET JOINT (provided by the USAF) providing electronic control and cover. Truly a fully joint OP. I'll be watching "The Strategy Page" over the next few days for the "rest of the story".

Why not some upcountry (and remote) refueling / dropoff site with sufficient range for the little birds to get to the target site? Have longer range (CH-53 or kin) rotary or Osprey variable wing assets located there to shuttle the assets out of country. The idea behind Desert One wasn't a bad one-they just picked a bad site and had some miscommunication in execution and withdrawal strategies.

No matter how they did it or what they did it with-that's just idle curiosity getting the better of me-kudos to them on a job very well done.

I do appreciate the very clever idea of burial at sea here. Quite appropriate, considering the alternatives.

The 'id' part of me wanted to watch OBL suffer a little more. A double tap to the head, while appropriate, seems almost anticlimactic. Since it was to be a naval operation, couldn't they have at least keel hauled him from the Nimitz (at flank speed, natch) or somethin'?

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Post #: 51
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 8:46:26 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Retired NYPD just left Anderson Cooper speechless for a moment with his comment, "Now OBL will learn there are no virgins at the bottom of the ocean."  

_____________________________

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 52
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 8:52:06 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		The biggest problems (as I understand it from reading and from a good friend of mine who was there) with the whole "desert one" plan was it was too. Too complicated. Too far reaching. Too much of an attempt to bring in as many players as possible (most of whom had never met or played together till the event was to come off. The best chance for success is generally simple. Anyone who's been part of a flight crew can tell you that while "they must come down" (mankind as a perfect record of manned aircraft. We've never left one up there yet!) , getting them to take off again is always a crap shoot. The most wonderfully maintained and pampered aircraft will suddenly decide it doesn't want to fly. And that's it. It doesn't. So you always (except for commercial air) try to minimize the number of landings and stops you make. Landing in a poetentially hostile country to refuel is just about the most frightening thing I can think of. 1) you're already low on fuel (that ALWAYS increases the pucker-factor, even in peacetime) and 2) you are landed in enemy territory. Helpless. On the ground. Vulnerable. PRAYING that you have fuel there, and that you can restart your beast. You can argue that a "Hotfuel" will minimize the danger of not being able to restart, but it's risky in itself. (Hot engine, fuel, you do the math!).

All that being said, it's far safer to refuel in the air (or even better , don't refuel at all).

The fact that they used H-60's and not the SOAR's AH-6's ("Little birds") , a much smaller aircraft, said that they were looking for a smaller aircraft, but one with longer range. But obviously a CH-47,CH-46,or CH-53 with much greater range, apparently could not fit into the compound. Overall, this raid reminds me more of the Son Tay raid, then "Eagle claw" (desert one).

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Post #: 53
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 9:01:01 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		It was just confirmed that they were MH-60's , and took off from Bagraham AB.

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Post #: 54
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 9:21:23 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Even if they didn't have an Imam on the ships normally with Osama it was a binary operation. They'd either take him alive or dead. You'd better believe that the question of what to do if he was dead was prepped and decided weeks before this happened. I'm quite sure they had all of the prep for an observant Muslim burial all prepped and ready to go the night of the op. No point giving free propaganda points away.

_____________________________

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Post #: 55
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 9:24:42 PM   
DOCUP


Posts: 3073
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline 		Remember Delta dosen't exist in the military's eyes. They go under other names that could be released by slip of tongue (SOF-D, CAG but they can be a mixture of Spec Ops). SOAR operateds out of Bagraham alot. I have seen SEALS use SOAR. They are not solely used for Delta, Green Berets, or Rangers.

It will take a long time before Delta is publicly acknowledge by the military. Seals do operate out of Afghanistan. Side note I ran into one while I was there who served with my brother on a Boomer in the early 90's. Seal teams consits of around 20 men. Not saying who went in but who ever did. Outstanding Job

I agree with AW1Steve, Less time on the ground refueling and the like the better, lots of time for Mr. Murphy to show up and ruin your day.

doc

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 56
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 9:37:12 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

It was just confirmed that they were MH-60's , and took off from Bagraham AB.

Steve,

Do you have a non-mainstream (e.g., CNN, MSNBC) feed for this detail (that you can share, of course)? I'm frustrated by the lack of specifics on the mainstream sites.

Thanks,

_____________________________


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Post #: 57
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 9:47:06 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Here's one. http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden-20110502

I just did a couple of searches for "Blackhawk , raid" , then MH-60 raid. Of course , being MSM , you can assume 50% is wrong. In a day or to check "The Strategy Page" for the whole story , written by military and former military, as a historian would look at it. It was through these guys that I found Matrix (they sell some of their games, as well as other companies). http://www.strategypage.com/default.asp

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Post #: 58
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 9:49:38 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Here's one. http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden-20110502

I just did a couple of searches for "Blackhawk , raid" , then MH-60 raid. Of course , being MSM , you can assume 50% is wrong. In a day or to check "The Strategy Page" for the whole story , written by military and former military, as a historian would look at it. It was through these guys that I found Matrix (they sell some of their games, as well as other companies). http://www.strategypage.com/default.asp

Thanks, dude.

_____________________________


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Post #: 59
RE: OT - They got Osama - 5/2/2011 9:54:36 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Most welcome! Now that you don't have to look up the article, you have more time for other things.....like turns.

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Post #: 60
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