Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Yep I agree. Alot is my fault as I crushed the Soviets in my 42 tests. They (Pavel and Trey) then stacked the deck agianst me. I really think if the Germans did the OKH plan in 42 they may have broke the bears back...And yes I feel theres a balance problem in 42... Anyone bust the front open and drive south in Case Blue? I cant.

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ORIGINAL: Scar23

I hate to jump into this discussion as it looks like its mostly for those playing the axis. I am the opponent IdahoNYer is playing in the campaign game with all the forts.

I agree that some of the fortifications seem to be a bit much. It might help if the game gave an explanation as to what the levels approximated, ie is level one simple fighting positions that can be dug in a night of hard digging, and is level 2 the same fighting positions with good overhead cover and some wire and mines and nicely drawn fire plans etc? I would think that in six months some pretty hefty positions could be dug, especially with lots of engineers.

Here is an example of what the Leningrad defenses were composed of that I pulled off the net.

"On June 27, 1941 the Council of deputies of the working people of Leningrad decided to mobilize thousands of people for the construction of fortifications. Several defences were built. One of the fortifications ran from the mouth of the Luga River to Chudovo, Gatchina, Uritsk, Pulkovo and then through the Neva River. The other defence passed through Petergof to Gatchina, Pulkovo, Kolpino and Koltushy. Another defense against the Finns was built in the northern suburbs of Leningrad. In all, 190 km of timber blockages, 635 km of wire entanglements, 700 km of anti-tank ditches, 5,000 earth-and-timber emplacements and ferro-concrete weapon emplacements and 25,000 km of open trenches were built by civilians. Even the gun of the cruiser Aurora was mounted on the Pulkovskiye Heights to the south of Leningrad. However, when Soviet troops of the North-Western Front in the end of June were defeated in the Baltic Soviet Republics, the Wehrmacht had forced its way to Ostrov and Pskov. On July 10 both cities were captured and the Germans reached Kunda and Kingisepp whereupon they advanced to Leningrad from Narva, the Luzhski region, and from the south-east and also to the north and south of the Lake Ilmen in order to isolate Leningrad from the east and to join the Finns at the eastern bank of Lake Ladoga."

All that was done in what two months? What would it look like in six months of uninterrupted digging?

However, the Russian troops are so brittle, too brittle in my opinion in 41 and 42, that without these entrenchments, its just too easy for the axis. Unless the supply can be restructured in 42 to prevent the Germans from having the ability to attack virtually everywhere and with HQ build up, and if the Russians are not beefed up a bit the Germans are too powerful in 42.

So I am not sure we are really arguing, or debating, what the fortifications should look like, or how quickly they should be built. What the debate is really about, is how tough the Russians should be in 42, and how can the game be structured to allow for historical gains by the Germans in 42. Of course this should be relative. Some games, where the Russians did extremely well in 41, and saved much of their army and factories, the Russians should be tougher come 42. In games where the Germans made big gains, Russian losses were exceedingly high, like in my game, the Germans should have an easier time of it in 42.

In the end, in my humble opinion, while we want the game to follow the historical possibilities, we shouldn't force it to follow the same path as in the history books. Could the Germans have been stopped in 42 short of Stalingrad? Maybe, but probably not. Likewise, could the Germans have launched attacks both in the south towards Stalingrad and the Caucasus and made an attack against Moscow? Maybe, but the supply situation would probably have prevented such an ambitious undertaking.

As far as the fun of the game, I think everyone would like to see a fluid 42. If that's the case, make the entrenchments lower, and harder to get, but bump the Russians strength, so its not a walk in the park for the Germans, and so that they will have to choose a focus rather than attack everywhere as in June 41.

Scar

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ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Someone made a suggestion, not sure where its posted, that level 4 & 5 forts should cost admin points to build up, I like the idea...Concreate is not cheap...One for level 4, two for level 5...

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

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ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Someone made a suggestion, not sure where its posted, that level 4 & 5 forts should cost admin points to build up, I like the idea...Concreate is not cheap...One for level 4, two for level 5...

I think that might have been me. If you think Maginot Line / Atlantic Wall / Stalin Line, these were all big projects with top-level backing and required the diversion of huge resources from the economy. They weren't built by the troops on the front line or even by their combat engineering units.

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Field Fortifications
There are two types of field fortifications that units may construct during the game. Both of them benefit defending units only; there is no advantage to attacking out of a hex that contains a field fortification. A unit that is "dug in" has foxholes, weapons pits, pre–registered targets, pre–planned fields of fire, and a generally planned, prepared and organized defense. A "fortification" represents all these things plus minefields, some barbed wire, the beginnings of a trench system, and a few simple log and earth bunkers.
Each field fortification appears on the map as the uppermost "unit" in its hex. (These are really just markers, not units.) The "size" of a field fortification is indicated by the number at the bottom of the marker, and that size is the number of companies that may gain full benefit from being in the same hex with it. Each battalion equals 3 companies for this purpose, so a size 9 field fortification can "contain" 9 companies (or 3 battalions), which is the stacking limit for most of the hexes on the map.
Field fortifications may be enlarged by having the same or other units build another one in the same hex. If more than one unit is constructing a field fortification in a hex at the same time, only one "building" marker is shown. Larger field fortifications have no additional effect except that more units may benefit from them.
Field fortifications may never move, and benefit only friendly units in the same hex with them. Once the field fortification is completed, the unit that built it is free to conduct other activities and/or move away, and other friendly units are free to move in and benefit from it. However, a field fortification is automatically removed from the map at the end of any turn that there are no friendly units in the same hex with it.
Most defensive positions are actually directional in nature; i.e., they face a particular direction and provide maximum benefit to the defender only if he is attacked from that direction. Each field fortification therefore represents a planned and prepared defensive line which, in reality, would have a significant effect only if attacked from the "front." Although they are realistic, directional combat effects are typically found only in tactical– level games, and would be a considerable added complication in an operational–level games such as the V for Victory™ series. We considered expanding the game system to include directionality and decided that, at this scale, it is not worth the trouble; very nearly the same result can be achieved in a much simpler way. V for Victory™ games assume that, when initially built, a field fortification faces the enemy, or at least the direction the enemy is most likely to approach from. As long as the position is continuously occupied, that directionality is preserved, and the probability that the field fortification will be beneficial remains high. However, if a position is ever captured or abandoned, its original directionality is presumed to be lost, and whatever remains of the field fortification is assumed to be facing the wrong way, or located in the wrong place within the hex, to be of much use to later occupants of the hex. This argument applies especially to captured positions.

Digging In
All units may dig in except those that are adjacent to an enemy unit, or those that are located in a located in a swamp, bunker, beach bunker, or fortress hex. It normally requires two turns to dig in. To begin, select the unit and press the letter "F" on the keyboard. (Or, you can open the Command Box for that unit, make sure the unit is assigned one of the three "defend" options, click on the "dig in" symbol, and then close the Command Box.) This causes a "digging in" marker to appear as the top unit in that hex on the map. To finish digging in, "dig in" orders must be assigned again on the next game–turn; as a convenience, the game automatically does that for you, so that once a unit begins to dig in, it continues to do so until you change its orders. If you assign orders other than "dig in" on the next turn, the process is either interrupted or canceled. If the unit moves out of the hex, the process is canceled, and the digging in marker is removed from the map. The process is merely interrupted (and may be completed on a later turn) if the unit is attacked by artillery/naval/air (with no enemy units adjacent), participates in combat as an attacker or defender without leaving the hex, if the unit remains inactive in order to recover from fatigue or disruption or to receive replacements, or if the unit is an artillery unit and conducts a fire mission. If an enemy unit moves adjacent to a unit in the process of digging in, the process is canceled and the "digging in" marker is removed from the map.
When dug in units are defending in a hex that contains a dug in marker large enough for all of them, it multiplies their defense strength by 1.5, their antitank strength by 1.25, increases their morale by 1, and halves the strength of incoming artillery/naval/air attacks. If the dug in marker is not large enough to contain all the units in the hex, it multiplies their defense strength by 1 + (0.5 x (marker size/stack size)), it reduces the strength of incoming artillery/naval/air attacks by a proportional fraction, and it has no effect on the antitank strength or the morale of the defending units.
The advantages of being dug in do not apply to units that are conducting probes, assaults, all–out assaults, or any type of movement.
In Velikiye Luki, during hard freeze and deep snow ground conditions, non–engineer units may dig in only in village and city hexes. Engineer units may still dig in when they are in clear terrain or forest hexes, but this takes twice as long as normal (i.e., four game–turns). Both engineer and non–engineer units may dig in when they are in lake hexes only during deep snow conditions (when the lake becomes clear terrain for all purposes).

Fortifications
Fortifications are constructed in the same manner as digging in, except that the first fortification marker in a hex may be built only by an engineer unit, and constructing the first fortification in a hex normally requires four turns. Like digging in, a fortification may not be built or enlarged in a bunker hex, or in a hex that is adjacent to an enemy unit. Unlike digging in, a fortification may be built or enlarged in a swamp hex, but this takes twice as long as normal (i.e., eight game–turns).
When units are defending in a hex that contains a fortification large enough for all of them, it multiplies their defense strength by 2, their antitank strength by 1.5, increases their morale by 2, and halves the strength of incoming artillery/naval/air attacks. If a fortification is not large enough to contain all the units in a hex, it multiplies their defense strength by 1 + (fortification size/stack size), their antitank strength by 1 + (0.5 x (fortification size/stack size)), it halves the strength of incoming artillery and air attacks, and it raises the morale of the defending units by 1.
Like being dug in, these advantages do not apply to units that are conducting probes, assaults, or any type of movement.
In Velikiye Luki, during hard freeze ground conditions, engineer units may still construct fortifications in all types of terrain except lakes, but this takes twice as long as normal (i.e., eight lake hexes during hard freeze conditions, they may be constructed on lake hexes during deep snow (when the lake becomes clear terrain for all purposes). This also requires eight game–turns.
Note that in Velikiye Luki, for the purpose of constructing field fortifications, construction battalions are engineer units.

Digging In and Fortifying in the Same Hex
A hex may not contain a completed dug in marker if it also contains a completed fortification, and vice versa. Both may be under construction at the same time (in which case the fortification is the one that appears), and either may be under construction in a hex that contains a completed one of the other (in which case whichever one is completed is the one that appears).
When a fortification is completed in a hex that already contains a completed dug in marker, the size of the newly–completed fortification is immediately increased by one–half of the size of the dug in marker (fractions rounded down), and the dug in marker is removed. For example, if a hex contains a completed dug in marker of size "3," and a building fortification of size "1," when the fortification is completed, it becomes size "2," and the dug in marker is removed.
Units may be assigned to dig in a hex that already contains a completed fortification. However, in this case the dug in marker never appears on the map; when the units are finished digging in, the already–complete fortification marker is enlarged instead. The amount that the fortification is enlarged by depends on the size of the unit that is digging in; a company–sized unit enlarges the size of the fortification by 1, and a battalion–sized unit enlarges the size of the fortification by 2. For example, if a hex contains a completed fortification marker of size 1, and a battalion–sized unit digs in the hex, when it is finished digging in, the fortification marker is enlarged from size 1 to size 3. This process may be repeated to enlarge the fortification to size 5, and so on.

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21

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ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

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ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Someone made a suggestion, not sure where its posted, that level 4 & 5 forts should cost admin points to build up, I like the idea...Concreate is not cheap...One for level 4, two for level 5...

I think that might have been me. If you think Maginot Line / Atlantic Wall / Stalin Line, these were all big projects with top-level backing and required the diversion of huge resources from the economy. They weren't built by the troops on the front line or even by their combat engineering units.

The thing is level 4 and 5 forts aren't supposed to be those Maginot type fortifications. There was talk of making a level 6 fort just for Sevastopol that starts the game with that level of fortification, but it never happened. Regardless though, an ap cost does sound like a good idea for at least level 5.

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ORIGINAL: el hefe:

The thing is level 4 and 5 forts aren't supposed to be those Maginot type fortifications. There was talk of making a level 6 fort just for Sevastopol that starts the game with that level of fortification, but it never happened. Regardless though, an ap cost does sound like a good idea for at least level 5.

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ORIGINAL: morvael

Food for thought from game manual for V for Victory (WitE of the 1990's - wow it's so many years from now):

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Field Fortifications
There are two types of field fortifications ...

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ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

...The problem is how quickly 1 Soviet division can dig to a level 3 fort, and the fact that forts are interchangeable in terms of the omni-directional defensive bonus and the fact that a level 3 fort offers the same protection to several divisions even when only 1 division builds it.  Because they do not scale, its advantageous for the Soviet to do linear defenses in depth and when you need to switch from linear to hedgehog (primary example of this need is Leningrad's area) the Soviet has a plethora of level 2 and level 3 forts to choose from in which to place stacked defenses.