Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved..

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved..

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved..

Page: [1] 2 3 4 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 6:18:18 AM

jzardos

Posts: 662
Joined: 3/15/2011
Status: offline

Ok, I finally understand what the fundamental problem with this game is when it comes to combat especially after 41. Kept scratching my head looking at these AARs and seeing the massive lines of Soviets units ... single units. Then I realized it's a trend, whether checkboard or just a carpet it was always single units. So I know that some of these Soviet players are no dummies and as most smart players do will gravitate to whatever winning strategy the game will allow, even if in this case as I will prove is completely bogus, unrealistic, and unhistorical. Take your pick, it just smells bad.

So I decide to test this theory out and have been now for weeks. I've been doing it with a friend in our game and vs AI. Here's the logic to why a smart Soviet player can get away with putting down a line of just crap units in 42 and let them fort up to 2-3 (sometimes 4) YES WITH v1.04. Oh yeah. Now the Soviet player has in the critical areas a line of single units 4-5 hexes deep.

Here's where it getting interesting and somewhat sad at the same time. I've played many board and computer games over the years.. 15 years at least. WitE is the ONLY game I know that you can put down a piece of crap unit and not losing it or having it devastated to a cadre when taking on better units (if considering morale and exp) at odds of 10:1 or greater.

Exhibit A:

Given it's early 42, I'd say the air evens out .. or should actually still be German advantage. But that's a another issue topic entirely.

What does the mean. Well it means that the Soviet player doesn't need to stack units because the attrition alone against the axis will do it's job. If I'm a Soviet player, I'd be very happy in 42 losing up to 3x more men/equip. Since the chances for a German breakthrough are going to be extremely rare if the Soviet player is not a noob. To me this creates a very unhistorical and unrealistic wall or check-board in depth approach that is just the smart way to go for the Soviets. You can't blame them for using it, because WitE allows for it to work so well.

*Also, as a unit like this retreats it moves back to another single unit in a fort and now there's two if them. This will continue to happen as the axis player continues to push through the wall of units. Unless the Soviet units happens to route.

What should happen to these single units of 3k-5k when hit with 30k-50k? I'd say a very high chance they are shattered or routed back with 20-30% left and losing 75% of heavy equipment. Side-note to developers... fix routing as it seems to be the running joke of the forums. I've seen Soviet units route and only lose 10% arty and 10% men..lol. Really?

Ok, I digress. Back to the issues of ratio loses with WitE, I've done hundreds of battles and it seems very difficult to for defending units to lose more than 30-35% even when faced with the assault I've displayed in here. BTW those two axis infantry units were two of the best with 80 morale and avg 79 on units. Commanded by none other than Manstein. Blizzard still turns most of the German infantry units to crap even if never attacked. Fix the issue with returning troops from winter disables lowering exp, remember these are the same veterans just returning to the lines. NOT green troops. But I don't think WitE at this point is sophisticated to track this? Oh well.

I know this is not a board game, but still. For people that have played, there's reasons why in most combats of 10x, the defender is eliminated.

Because WitE allows it, they have now this situation crazy unhistorical situation in 42 where the Soviet players just make a deep line of single units. Watching the axis player bang away until they've worn themselves down and then to counter attack. I should know as I used it on my friend playing axis and he just threw in the towel in 43 because of how much he lost in 42 with very little to show for it.

Will fixing this combat to be more realistic effect play-balance? Possibly. So maybe something else needs to change as well. But at least the historical feel is back with battle results.

So I leave people with the question: How many, with their vast or even limited knowledge of the east front campaign, feel these combat results (in early 1942) would EVER be possible. Oh, I ran this battle 10x times or more and this closest to the average result. So it was NO fluke result.

My answers is never. This Soviet unit would have been decimated. It's late so not going to bother proofing. Also, sorry if this is strong. Keep in mind I'm presenting what I think is constructive criticism because this very good game is only going to get better!

NOTE: I realize that the Soviet bombers explain the loses to the Germans. It's the very low (~20%) loses to the Soviets given what they were attacked by. That's the point of this post and how it's major issue in the game.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by jzardos -- 5/20/2011 6:50:26 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 7:19:14 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

I don't see what the Eureka moment is here, this outcome has been very obvious for some time (as you point out, Sov players recognized this long ago). From your thread title, I though you had figured out WHY is this occuring, but apparently not...you also don't propose any real fix, other than that the Sov unit should be pulverized...

People can certainly argue about whether this outcome is realistic (I would say that it is almost certainly not for unentrenched units, for entrenched units, not sure), but as I've said before if the fix is to simply wipe from the map every Sov unit that is hit by a strong German stack, I think we'll have significant play balance issues.

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 2

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 8:02:37 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

A few comments:
1. The casualties are right for a day or two of combat. To break through, you have to hammer a few times before you release your mobile forces.
2. A light covering force was used by both sides. There should be a heavy defending force on the MLR one hex back, and counterattack forces behind that.
3. The goal of an attack is to make a penetration, but if the defence in depth goes too far back, it's a waste of forces that could stiffen the defence further forward. On the other hand, you do need forces in place. A UK division organised stop lines with HMGs and AT assets 4 and 8 km back from the front line.
4. A force retreating, especially a Soviet force, should not be able to generate much combat power until it gets a breather. That's why the counterattack reserves were important to holding a line.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 3

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 8:40:10 AM

Zebedee

Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline

You're outnumbered 2:1 Reds, retreat nicely or....

Ouch...

No fair! Don't make me deliberate attack.... No... don't you go bringing reserves in too....

Let's see that again without your friends...

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 4

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 8:59:49 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

Interesting, Zebedee, a rather wide range of results, but given all of the different factors (hasty vs deliberate, air support, reserves, etc.) it is rather difficult for me to interpret them other than the rather obvious conclusions that from the attacker's perspective, Deliberate Attack is GOOD, air support is GOOD, reserves are BAD.

Can anyone provide more insightful analysis?

(in reply to Zebedee)

Post #: 5

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 9:08:19 AM

cpt flam

Posts: 2352
Joined: 1/16/2011
From: caen - France
Status: offline

i would have rather made an hasty attack with a lone div if there is only a X in face
you are really over commiting in this case
probably you would have the same retreat if that's you want

_____________________________

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 6

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 9:10:48 AM

Zebedee

Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Interesting, Zebedee, a rather wide range of results, but given all of the different factors (hasty vs deliberate, air support, reserves, etc.) it is rather difficult for me to interpret them other than the rather obvious conclusions that from the attacker's perspective, Deliberate Attack is GOOD, air support is GOOD, reserves are BAD.

Can anyone provide more insightful analysis?

In longer words and joined up sentences for the adults:

The critical factor is the choice between hasty and deliberate attack on units with a fortification level. Attackers' casualties will be higher and defenders tend towards lower when hasty attacking in comparison to the identical factors influencing a deliberate attack. This is because when you're hasty attacking, your artillery is skimping on fire. Less casualties caused, less suppression, more stuff firing at you and so causing you more casualties.

Notice that even the addition of a tank brigade of reserves still wasn't sufficient to stop the rout for the first deliberate attack.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 7

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 9:36:35 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

The difference in defender casualties between a hasty and deliberate attack is pretty huge...is that solely a result of less effective artillery, or are there also fewer restreat losses after a hasty attack?

(in reply to Zebedee)

Post #: 8

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 10:12:49 AM

Zebedee

Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

The difference in defender casualties between a hasty and deliberate attack is pretty huge...is that solely a result of less effective artillery, or are there also fewer restreat losses after a hasty attack?

Yeah, you're right, I should have been clearer (I have a working theory that losses added on for routing and retreated seem fairly proportional to losses taken in combat - neither here nor there). I was refering to what goes in the combat prior to the results for rout/shatter getting added on as you can see with the exceptionally low Soviet casualties in the two 'holds' against hasty attacks.

You're definitely not going to see too many shatters if you always hasty attack (you don't get the same level of CV inflation, you're limiting the amount of CV which can be brought on the target), but then if you always deliberate attack, you won't get many encirclements either.

< Message edited by Zebedee -- 5/20/2011 10:13:59 AM >

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 9

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 10:29:02 AM

arras

Posts: 189
Joined: 9/7/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

Here's where it getting interesting and somewhat sad at the same time. I've played many board and computer games over the years.. 15 years at least. WitE is the ONLY game I know that you can put down a piece of crap unit and not losing it or having it devastated to a cadre when taking on better units (if considering morale and exp) at odds of 10:1 or greater.

Do you base your opinion on "games" or do you have some real historical evidence to support your claim? One thing I am sure about is that games vastly exaggerate battle casualties.

Through the history, typical battle casualties usually ranged about 10-20% for winner and 30-40% for looser. With some generalization of course. And I do mean larger units of soldiers, like say divisions.

Only computer boots fight to the death.

Perhaps you can show us some typical examples of real WWII battles and their results including casualties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

I know this is not a board game, but still. For people that have played, there's reasons why in most combats of 10x, the defender is eliminated.

Question is what that "10" represents, which you do not know. Again I see you based your assumption on experience from playing games. Not good I would say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

Because WitE allows it, they have now this situation crazy unhistorical situation in 42 where the Soviet players just make a deep line of single units.

I'll would say, it is defence in depth and see nothing unhistorical in it. Learning from Soviet experiences, that is what player should do. If that work in WITE than I definitely consider it plus.

In fact what I miss in this game is ability to set units in to "holding enemy attack" stance. In which they would not make stand but give ground slowly in front of the enemy. Retreating while keeping looses down even against superior enemy. Units with lot of mobile elements should be more effective in this kind of combat both at attacking and defending side.

< Message edited by arras -- 5/20/2011 10:34:44 AM >

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 10

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 12:12:47 PM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

The difference in defender casualties between a hasty and deliberate attack is pretty huge...is that solely a result of less effective artillery, or are there also fewer restreat losses after a hasty attack?

Yeah, you're right, I should have been clearer (I have a working theory that losses added on for routing and retreated seem fairly proportional to losses taken in combat - neither here nor there). I was refering to what goes in the combat prior to the results for rout/shatter getting added on as you can see with the exceptionally low Soviet casualties in the two 'holds' against hasty attacks.

You're definitely not going to see too many shatters if you always hasty attack (you don't get the same level of CV inflation, you're limiting the amount of CV which can be brought on the target), but then if you always deliberate attack, you won't get many encirclements either.

Good data Zebedee.

I must say I am comfortable with the outcomes and the difference between deliberate and hasty attacks. If I want to get forward quick, I make a hasty attack, if I want to cause enemy losses I make a deliberate one.

I can't really see what's the problem and what the solution is you have found Jzardos? The result you show is not what I typically get when i delib a lone tank brigade with 2 German infantry divisions. Though I agree that tank brigades do tend to inflict casualties out of proportion to their own size. However, it was in level 2 fort here, so that would probably explain some of the German losses.

I do agree though that there might well be some scaling issues with the combat model, and the effects seem to be felt more badly for the Germans in the later war period.

(in reply to Zebedee)

Post #: 11

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 12:47:26 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

The difference in defender casualties between a hasty and deliberate attack is pretty huge...is that solely a result of less effective artillery, or are there also fewer restreat losses after a hasty attack?

Yeah, you're right, I should have been clearer (I have a working theory that losses added on for routing and retreated seem fairly proportional to losses taken in combat - neither here nor there). I was refering to what goes in the combat prior to the results for rout/shatter getting added on as you can see with the exceptionally low Soviet casualties in the two 'holds' against hasty attacks.

You're definitely not going to see too many shatters if you always hasty attack (you don't get the same level of CV inflation, you're limiting the amount of CV which can be brought on the target), but then if you always deliberate attack, you won't get many encirclements either.

Good data Zebedee.

I must say I am comfortable with the outcomes and the difference between deliberate and hasty attacks. If I want to get forward quick, I make a hasty attack, if I want to cause enemy losses I make a deliberate one.

I can't really see what's the problem and what the solution is you have found Jzardos? The result you show is not what I typically get when i delib a lone tank brigade with 2 German infantry divisions. Though I agree that tank brigades do tend to inflict casualties out of proportion to their own size. However, it was in level 2 fort here, so that would probably explain some of the German losses.

I do agree though that there might well be some scaling issues with the combat model, and the effects seem to be felt more badly for the Germans in the later war period.

The other thing you should see if you organise a deliberate attack is that the defence has the option to thin out the line so that the attack hits nothing.

_____________________________

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 12

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 12:56:48 PM

Ridgeway

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/21/2011
Status: offline

quote:

Here's where it getting interesting and somewhat sad at the same time. I've played many board and computer games over the years.. 15 years at least. WitE is the ONLY game I know that you can put down a piece of crap unit and not losing it or having it devastated to a cadre when taking on better units (if considering morale and exp) at odds of 10:1 or greater.

You do realize that you are attacking an essentially purely mobile unit (a tank brigade) with units that have no mobility. Why do you think it would be realistic for the tank brigade to stand immobile and let itself be overrun (overwalked)?

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 13

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 1:11:49 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

quote:

Here's where it getting interesting and somewhat sad at the same time. I've played many board and computer games over the years.. 15 years at least. WitE is the ONLY game I know that you can put down a piece of crap unit and not losing it or having it devastated to a cadre when taking on better units (if considering morale and exp) at odds of 10:1 or greater.

You do realize that you are attacking an essentially purely mobile unit (a tank brigade) with units that have no mobility. Why do you think it would be realistic for the tank brigade to stand immobile and let itself be overrun (overwalked)?

That's exactly the advantage mobile units have in the defence. Beck's Delaying Defence was designed around motorised machinegun Abteilungen that were trained to deploy, forcing the opposition to deploy at foot speed, then ploy and pull back to the next position. Rinse and repeat. Dick Simpkin wrote a whole book on this and related topics.

< Message edited by herwin -- 5/20/2011 1:12:35 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Ridgeway)

Post #: 14

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 2:26:54 PM

gravyface_

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/21/2007
Status: offline

I've been a silent observer of these play-balance/bugs/flaws threads for the last few weeks; good stuff. Haven't bought the game yet, finishing up DC:WtP first.

Can I ask, is there such a thing as an overstack penalty in WiTE?

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 15

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 3:16:47 PM

arras

Posts: 189
Joined: 9/7/2004
Status: offline

No, but there is stacking limit, which is 3 units. Any units, regardless of size or type (HQs and airfields also count). You however can trace movement through those units.

(in reply to gravyface_)

Post #: 16

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 5:59:57 PM

abulbulian

Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

quote:

Here's where it getting interesting and somewhat sad at the same time. I've played many board and computer games over the years.. 15 years at least. WitE is the ONLY game I know that you can put down a piece of crap unit and not losing it or having it devastated to a cadre when taking on better units (if considering morale and exp) at odds of 10:1 or greater.

You do realize that you are attacking an essentially purely mobile unit (a tank brigade) with units that have no mobility. Why do you think it would be realistic for the tank brigade to stand immobile and let itself be overrun (overwalked)?

For what it's worth, I've seen several occasion in which the target unit was not a mobile unit. I very much doubt there's logic to retreat mobile units sooner than non-mobile when it comes to incurring loses from the attacker.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 5/20/2011 6:00:56 PM >

(in reply to Ridgeway)

Post #: 17

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 6:14:50 PM

abulbulian

Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline

Nobody really cared to answer the direct question of if the posted battle would ever have realistically gone 'down' that way.� Personally I think the results are comical as far as Soviet loses go.� No where in ANY of my readings of the battles during 1942 did I come across an instance where a 'deliberate' attack with about 35k men against such a small force would have been able to get away in such good order. Mobile or not. In fact the norm was an smaller German force handing a large Soviet force much high loses in early-late 42. Sure, there might have been a few battles in which a smaller Soviet force could get the better of a German force, but these were in the minority.

The main issue jzardos is trying to convey is that very small Sov forces are too often able to inflict decent loses to the attacker, but more importantly taking a very low amount themselves when faced with extremely high attacker:defender odds.

I think if steps were taken to increase loses based forces involved (very high attacker vs small defender .. 10:1?)� it would help to avoid these unhistorical deep lines of single forted Sov units in 42.� The idea that very experience and high morale units even if outnumber should be able to stand up better to these situations.� Clearly this posted battle by jzardos was not the case for the lower morale and exp defender.

I'm also, still concern the game doesn't reflect the leadership and just better tactical abilities of the Germans vs their Soviet counterpart in 42.� Even until the end of the war, although the gap was closing, the German still have superior skill in almost all lower levels of leadership.

Keeping in mind this type of change in combat mechanics would later favor the Soviet's march back to Berlin in 43 onward.�

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 5/20/2011 6:18:05 PM >

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 18

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 6:29:44 PM

gravyface_

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/21/2007
Status: offline

Have you tried reloading your save game and attempting the same attack but with less units? Curious to know if there's a "hidden" penalty for committing too many forces to the battle.

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 19

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 6:35:39 PM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline

quote:

I think if steps were taken to increase loses based forces involved (very high attacker vs small defender .. 10:1?)� it would help to avoid these unhistorical deep lines of single forted Sov units in 42.�

This particular solution isn't necessarily to the German advantage in the long run. It is the Soviet, after all, who outnumbers the German rather severely in time.

Be careful what you wish for. In trying to "fix" the 1942 game you may wind up wrecking the game from 43 onwards.

Already in the existing game there is arguably a problem with German defenders in the late war. (Possibly due to retreat losses as Bob mentioned.) If you tweak the combat engine such that units simply explode when faced with high odds attacks, the Wehrmacht will come under heavy pressure in due course and quite possibly collapse well ahead of schedule.

This is a complex issue that doesn't lend itself to easy solutions.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 20

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 7:31:51 PM

Ridgeway

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/21/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Nobody really cared to answer the direct question of if the posted battle would ever have realistically gone 'down' that way.� Personally I think the results are comical as far as Soviet loses go.� No where in ANY of my readings of the battles during 1942 did I come across an instance where a 'deliberate' attack with about 35k men against such a small force would have been able to get away in such good order. Mobile or not. In fact the norm was an smaller German force handing a large Soviet force much high loses in early-late 42. Sure, there might have been a few battles in which a smaller Soviet force could get the better of a German force, but these were in the minority.

OK -- German infantry forces advance to contact under moderate artillery fire and air attack. Russian sees that position is indefensible and retreats double quick. Both sides suffer light casualties -- and the Russian casualties weren't all that light. What is so "unrealistic" about that?

Just because it is called a "deliberate attack" in the game should not mean that the defense should be required to stand and fight.

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 21

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 8:25:49 PM

abulbulian

Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Nobody really cared to answer the direct question of if the posted battle would ever have realistically gone 'down' that way.� Personally I think the results are comical as far as Soviet loses go.� No where in ANY of my readings of the battles during 1942 did I come across an instance where a 'deliberate' attack with about 35k men against such a small force would have been able to get away in such good order. Mobile or not. In fact the norm was an smaller German force handing a large Soviet force much high loses in early-late 42. Sure, there might have been a few battles in which a smaller Soviet force could get the better of a German force, but these were in the minority.

OK -- German infantry forces advance to contact under moderate artillery fire and air attack. Russian sees that position is indefensible and retreats double quick. Both sides suffer light casualties -- and the Russian casualties weren't all that light. What is so "unrealistic" about that?

Just because it is called a "deliberate attack" in the game should not mean that the defense should be required to stand and fight.

But if the premise is that this is a historical game we must consider exactly what we're dealing with.

In order for a unit to be able to have a timely retreat there's a great deal of things that NEED to happen in a timely manner. If you're think the command and control aspect of the Soviet armed forces was capable of rapid and concise decisions at this stage of the war, you're very misguided.

Soviet units where very unlikely to retreat and make decision as such without higher up authority. Not to mention the difficult dynamics in a retreat in order being carried out on the battlefield (w inexperience troops). This would normally turn into a route. Given how poorly the Soviet communication network was at that time, this was iffy at best to get orders in time to make the best decision. Many of the massive amounts of loses, we're talking entire armies were lost due the deficiencies in the Soviets communication, command, and control facilities.

I CAN'T EXPRESS ENOUGH HOW IMPORTANT AND HOW MANY TIMES PEOPLE FORGET THESE ISSUES THE SOVIET ARMED FORCES WERE FACING IN 1942. I think people tend to just forget this crucial balance factor in the game and assume Soviet units had the capability to make sounds and timely decisions based on standing orders.

This is why that unit in reality would have been smashed if no reserves had come up to help it. THIS is why the game mechanics make it feasibility for the Sov to spread out their units in such a bizarre manner and get rewarded for it.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 5/20/2011 8:29:51 PM >

(in reply to Ridgeway)

Post #: 22

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 8:36:00 PM

abulbulian

Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

quote:

I think if steps were taken to increase loses based forces involved (very high attacker vs small defender .. 10:1?)� it would help to avoid these unhistorical deep lines of single forted Sov units in 42.�

This particular solution isn't necessarily to the German advantage in the long run. It is the Soviet, after all, who outnumbers the German rather severely in time.

Be careful what you wish for. In trying to "fix" the 1942 game you may wind up wrecking the game from 43 onwards.

Already in the existing game there is arguably a problem with German defenders in the late war. (Possibly due to retreat losses as Bob mentioned.) If you tweak the combat engine such that units simply explode when faced with high odds attacks, the Wehrmacht will come under heavy pressure in due course and quite possibly collapse well ahead of schedule.

This is a complex issue that doesn't lend itself to easy solutions.

Yes, and do you know why this is a problem? I think a lot of it has to due with the game not honoring the exp and skilled tactics the Germans exhibited when actually allowed freedom to stage a fighting withdrawn (keeping in mind no Hitler to make crazy stand and die orders). It has been documented and well known that the Germans were the most skilled in this tactic over ALL nations involved in WW2. Just look at what Manstein was able to accomplish with his 'backhand blow' after Stalingrad fell early 43. That is just one of many example what German forces could accomplish when given freedom to maneuver. Yet, WitE merely gives the German forces some paltry combat benefits. Fix this glaring mechanic and WitE will be on it's way to a more realistic game and other play-balance issues in the game will be able to be corrected with less work.

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 23

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 8:53:18 PM

Zebedee

Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is a complex issue that doesn't lend itself to easy solutions.

Flaviusx - have you seen the 'reconnaissance' battle type for attacking units? I'm wondering what triggers that. Perhaps another battle type can be introduced? One based on a leadership roll perhaps, where the defenders bug out if the odds are overwhelming with a morale check on routing rather than retreating in good order? The morale check would help limit its usefulness in 1941 for the Soviets or the southern Axis minors. Course passing on that kind of decision to the AI may result in players pulling their hair out when the LAH fails its check and gives up a position it is meant to hold at all costs...

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 24

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 10:18:42 PM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline

It's an interesting idea.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Zebedee)

Post #: 25

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/20/2011 11:00:11 PM

Ridgeway

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/21/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Nobody really cared to answer the direct question of if the posted battle would ever have realistically gone 'down' that way.� Personally I think the results are comical as far as Soviet loses go.� No where in ANY of my readings of the battles during 1942 did I come across an instance where a 'deliberate' attack with about 35k men against such a small force would have been able to get away in such good order. Mobile or not. In fact the norm was an smaller German force handing a large Soviet force much high loses in early-late 42. Sure, there might have been a few battles in which a smaller Soviet force could get the better of a German force, but these were in the minority.

OK -- German infantry forces advance to contact under moderate artillery fire and air attack. Russian sees that position is indefensible and retreats double quick. Both sides suffer light casualties -- and the Russian casualties weren't all that light. What is so "unrealistic" about that?

Just because it is called a "deliberate attack" in the game should not mean that the defense should be required to stand and fight.

But if the premise is that this is a historical game we must consider exactly what we're dealing with.

In order for a unit to be able to have a timely retreat there's a great deal of things that NEED to happen in a timely manner. If you're think the command and control aspect of the Soviet armed forces was capable of rapid and concise decisions at this stage of the war, you're very misguided.

Soviet units where very unlikely to retreat and make decision as such without higher up authority. Not to mention the difficult dynamics in a retreat in order being carried out on the battlefield (w inexperience troops). This would normally turn into a route. Given how poorly the Soviet communication network was at that time, this was iffy at best to get orders in time to make the best decision. Many of the massive amounts of loses, we're talking entire armies were lost due the deficiencies in the Soviets communication, command, and control facilities.

I CAN'T EXPRESS ENOUGH HOW IMPORTANT AND HOW MANY TIMES PEOPLE FORGET THESE ISSUES THE SOVIET ARMED FORCES WERE FACING IN 1942. I think people tend to just forget this crucial balance factor in the game and assume Soviet units had the capability to make sounds and timely decisions based on standing orders.

This is why that unit in reality would have been smashed if no reserves had come up to help it. THIS is why the game mechanics make it feasibility for the Sov to spread out their units in such a bizarre manner and get rewarded for it.

I find it highly ironic that the same sorts of people (although not necessarily you specifically) who want to be able to send their Uberfinns to Maikop and have their tankbuster Stukas wipe out entire tank corps get all worked up about a tank brigade being able to retreat in the face of an all-infantry attack with only (!!??) 30% casualties.

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 26

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/21/2011 4:35:03 AM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

This wasn't a tank corps defending. It was a rifle division.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Ridgeway)

Post #: 27

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/21/2011 3:56:18 PM

Ridgeway

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/21/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

This wasn't a tank corps defending. It was a rifle division.

In the OP's example it was 2 German Inf Divs plus support attacking a Tank Brigade plus support.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 28

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/21/2011 9:58:41 PM

jzardos

Posts: 662
Joined: 3/15/2011
Status: offline

Just another example of sheer madness. Once again I dare anybody to agree that this would have ever been a realistic/historical possibily in 1942 east front.

Germans have superiority tactics, manpower, exp, equipment, morale, and leadership. Yet just look at the results.

Just using logic 101, if this would never be an outcome in 42 why would WitE even allow it to happen ONE time?

To me and all my friends that play war games it's clear irrefutable proof that combat mechanics are in some cases flawed. I don't see HOW anybody could say... "oh no this is ok, it should be possible". You're basically going against ever all the historical evidence that suggested give this situation the Soviet forces would have lost more of everything.

HOW CAN WitE developers and players EVER allow this continue. This to me is just such an injustice to gamers and an even the actual veterans alike.

WitE researchers on this aspect of the game, you ought to be ashamed and shame on you 100x if you don't fix it. This is my opinion and once again, not going to candy-coat this bs.

If WitE is going to be a 'war in the east fantasy' game, then allow the Axis to have a winter prep option, because you've basically taken away what was their true strength in this campaign (41-43) superior tactics,equipment, and leadership on almost all levels but Hitler. But in this case Hitler is out of the picture as players are suppose to be making those decisions.

Sorry just becoming more and more dissolutioned with what is turning out to be some real unexpected results from combat that I've never experienced in any others games of this campaign.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by jzardos -- 5/21/2011 10:04:37 PM >

(in reply to Ridgeway)

Post #: 29

RE: Eureka, have the issue now! Problem can be solved.. - 5/21/2011 10:36:27 PM

abulbulian

Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline

True, this is probably not something that would have resulted at this point in the campaign. I understand your frustration. All I would say is try to continue and play on knowing that the developers are examining these issues and will be doing their best to correct the inaccuracies as they're able to discover the cause. It's not an easy process and there's much to consider before just throwing a patch out before looking at the big picture and any regression.

Have some faith.