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RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/24/2011 8:58:44 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe
I think this is the first time in my life that over the past couple of days I have heard complaints about too many patches being released. Pavel is releasing beta patches to the testers at about the rate of four per week. I have never seen that kind of support anywhere else in my wide range of gaming in 25+ years.


I don't have the experience Trey has, but if this isn't the best supported computer wargame ever released, it comes really, really close.

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Post #: 31
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/24/2011 9:00:03 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I think this is the first time in my life that over the past couple of days I have heard complaints about too many patches being released. Pavel is releasing beta patches to the testers at about the rate of four per week. I have never seen that kind of support anywhere else in my wide range of gaming in 25+ years.

Trey

LoL! Like I said to my first wife, when she got to 300 lbs, "Honey, there is such a thing as too much love..."

Not sure if that applies here, though...


You just made me wonder... well, nevermind


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Post #: 32
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/24/2011 10:42:49 PM   
Great_Ajax


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LMAO James. Are you still married?

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I think this is the first time in my life that over the past couple of days I have heard complaints about too many patches being released. Pavel is releasing beta patches to the testers at about the rate of four per week. I have never seen that kind of support anywhere else in my wide range of gaming in 25+ years.

Trey

LoL! Like I said to my first wife, when she got to 300 lbs, "Honey, there is such a thing as too much love..."

Not sure if that applies here, though...



_____________________________

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WiTE Scenario Designer
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WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 33
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/24/2011 10:47:54 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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Yeah, going on 20 years, but not to the one featured in this story...
quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

LMAO James. Are you still married?

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I think this is the first time in my life that over the past couple of days I have heard complaints about too many patches being released. Pavel is releasing beta patches to the testers at about the rate of four per week. I have never seen that kind of support anywhere else in my wide range of gaming in 25+ years.

Trey

LoL! Like I said to my first wife, when she got to 300 lbs, "Honey, there is such a thing as too much love..."

Not sure if that applies here, though...




(in reply to Great_Ajax)
Post #: 34
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/25/2011 1:59:07 AM   
Wild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I think this is the first time in my life that over the past couple of days I have heard complaints about too many patches being released. Pavel is releasing beta patches to the testers at about the rate of four per week. I have never seen that kind of support anywhere else in my wide range of gaming in 25+ years.

Trey


This is the best supported game i have ever played. Thank you all for your hard work and dedication.
And please...keep the patches coming. Those that don't wish too don't have to upgrade to them. But i'm sure the vast majority of us love having this kind of support.

(in reply to Great_Ajax)
Post #: 35
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/25/2011 10:51:57 AM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

My vote goes for removing the auto-win conditions for the German side. ...



On the contrary, I think more sudden death victory conditions would make the game more interesting, and spur players on to achive them.

For example, consider a system where you get negative points for not holding certain locations. Three points and you're out. Some examples below:

SOVIETS
Not holding Kiev on turn 5: 1 point
Not holding Smolensk on turn 5: 1 point
For each of Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov and Kharkov not held on turn 18: 1 point
Fore each of Moscow, Sevastopol and Stalingrad not held on turn 40 : 1 point
etc

GERMAN
For each of Pskov, Smolensk, Kharkov and Stalino not held on turn 24: 1 point
For each of Pskov, Smolensk, Kharkov, Stalino and Sevastopol not held on turn 40: 1 point
etc

Note that these are only examples, I am sure this could be fine tuned.

The idea is that you would not have lost by not meeting a single criteria, but adding up setbacks would get you eventually. It would also offer an incentive to play more for historical objectives. This could of course be optional, both players could agree to play with sudden death on. Hopefully, such a system would make the game interesting and keep the suspense level, with both players continually having a chance to win the game without having to play 225 turns to find out who won.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/25/2011 10:53:23 AM >


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41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

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Post #: 36
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/25/2011 11:17:41 AM   
timmyab

 

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I like the idea of awarding points per turn for holding important objectives, like in the scenarios.I don't see why this couldn't be adapted for the campaign game.This would give you a sudden death option for seriously one sided games or the option to play through until a date that suits both players in more evenly balanced games.So for example, you could choose to play from 41 through to late 43 and then tote up your VP's to find who's won.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 5/25/2011 11:20:36 AM >

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Post #: 37
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/25/2011 3:15:15 PM   
Panama


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Soviet ahistorical production is a problem. They can make whatever works best mathematically regardless of what was produced by the Soviets historically. I'd bet dollars to donuts you would see different Axis production if they could make what they wanted. Giving both sides the same thing, production or historical reinforcements, might make a bit of a different game. But with two equal players the Soviets might still 'win' most of the time.

Never could understand sticking one side with historical reinforcements and giving the other side free reign over what they could make. Maybe they were running out of time. Axis production would have added a lot more development time.

This became apparent with the board game when it came out too so it's nothing new.

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Post #: 38
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/25/2011 6:31:34 PM   
Garth Vader

 

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The problem is that it's impossible to be balanced and historical. Germany has a small window before Soviet manpower and production become overwhelming. Historically Germany played 1941-2 fairly well, while the Soviets played poorly. The mistakes the Soviets made can be changed in an operational level game. German mistakes were more often strategic, at least in the early war.

The victory conditions address this, but for most players losing the war later than was historical doesn't feel like a win so once a decisive win is off the table they will quit.

I don't have the time to get into a MP game, but I am very happy with the gaming experience against the AI so far.

(in reply to Panama)
Post #: 39
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/25/2011 7:15:22 PM   
saintsup

 

Posts: 133
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From: La Celle Saint-Clouud
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

My vote goes for removing the auto-win conditions for the German side. ...



On the contrary, I think more sudden death victory conditions would make the game more interesting, and spur players on to achive them.

For example, consider a system where you get negative points for not holding certain locations. Three points and you're out. Some examples below:

SOVIETS
Not holding Kiev on turn 5: 1 point
Not holding Smolensk on turn 5: 1 point
For each of Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov and Kharkov not held on turn 18: 1 point
Fore each of Moscow, Sevastopol and Stalingrad not held on turn 40 : 1 point
etc

GERMAN
For each of Pskov, Smolensk, Kharkov and Stalino not held on turn 24: 1 point
For each of Pskov, Smolensk, Kharkov, Stalino and Sevastopol not held on turn 40: 1 point
etc

Note that these are only examples, I am sure this could be fine tuned.

The idea is that you would not have lost by not meeting a single criteria, but adding up setbacks would get you eventually. It would also offer an incentive to play more for historical objectives. This could of course be optional, both players could agree to play with sudden death on. Hopefully, such a system would make the game interesting and keep the suspense level, with both players continually having a chance to win the game without having to play 225 turns to find out who won.


I like this idea very much. It's difficult to keep motivation playing hundreds of hours only for a few month sooner or later in Berlin

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 40
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/25/2011 7:18:45 PM   
sillyflower


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From: Back in Blighty
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jklilly

It's about communication. When the game stops being fun for you, you inquire if it is still fun for your opponent. If he is haing a good time, I play on without complaint. Even if you're being killed, there are still things you can do that are fun and challenging. See how far you can keep them away from the Bunker.

I've never had problems with this. One think I do miss with the server is the email messages with the turns. You learn a little about your opponents, and they become friends. The server is convenient however.

I always play server but have email cooespondence with all my opponents as well. Best of both worlds

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Post #: 41
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/27/2011 1:53:39 AM   
Peltonx


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Great idea Tarhunnas, no reason why they can't do it for the 41-45 scenario when they do it for the shorter ones.

Also great point Panama I really don't get why the German side is handy capped and the Russian side gets all the freedom. More Russian fan boys then German fan boys at the controls I guess or what you said.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 42
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/27/2011 3:31:59 AM   
Aurelian

 

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Production is what it is.

Probably because............ The Axis have multiple fronts to fight on. And the Soviets do not.

This, (production), was all known/debated before release.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 5/27/2011 3:36:13 AM >

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Post #: 43
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/27/2011 3:40:49 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Production is what it is.

Probably because............ The Axis have multiple fronts to fight on. And the Soviets do not.

This, (production), was all known/debated before release.


And debated

and debated

then debated some more.

And that was just the public forum. It started YEARS before that on the Development Forum I understand.

You certainly can't say that it was done in the dark and then sprung as a surprise.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 44
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/27/2011 3:42:33 AM   
Sabre21


Posts: 8231
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From: on a mountain in Idaho
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Great idea Tarhunnas, no reason why they can't do it for the 41-45 scenario when they do it for the shorter ones.

Also great point Panama I really don't get why the German side is handy capped and the Russian side gets all the freedom. More Russian fan boys then German fan boys at the controls I guess or what you said.


That's how Gary designed it. I hope to see a full production system for both sides come War in Europe...providing I'm still alive by then.

As for victory points, many testers wanted to see a more dynamic point system close to what some of you suggest, but it was determined to be one of those tasks just too difficult to code given the current game system. Hopefully down the road as WitW gets developed, a more involved vp system can be devised that can be imported to WitE.

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Post #: 45
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/27/2011 4:02:35 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Production is what it is.

Probably because............ The Axis have multiple fronts to fight on. And the Soviets do not.

This, (production), was all known/debated before release.


And debated

and debated

then debated some more.

And that was just the public forum. It started YEARS before that on the Development Forum I understand.

You certainly can't say that it was done in the dark and then sprung as a surprise.


Some would disagree about that

WiTP has it for one side. As does Eagle Day/BTR. WPO has none. Neither does TOAW.

I'm guessing that it War in Europe ever sees the light of day, Germany/Russia will have it, the Western Allies will not.

And it will be debated/complained about anew.

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 46
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/28/2011 12:52:25 AM   
neuromancer


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Production was - and is - a really quite complicated affair, and couldn't really be changed just because Stalin or Hitler suddenly said "make more of X!" I'm sure they tried.

I'm equally sure they influenced production but hardly had total control (Guderian complained that Hitler allowed to many varieties of panzer to be constructed, meanwhile Hitler didn't like the original MP-43 for some reason, but they were made in some numbers anyway). You can order a certain number of things, but getting them when you want them is very much open to debate. And in war time, beggars can't be choosers - particularly the Soviet Union.

And that is before getting into the huge nightmare known as bureaucracy, and both the USSR and Third Reich had a nightmare of bureaucracy. Bureaucracy does what it wants to; some middle manager someplace makes a decision for whatever reason (he's an idiot, he's a genius, he's on the take, he's out of the loop, he got memo A and B confused, whatever) and whatever El Grande Fromage wanted is no longer part of the program. And should you try to find out who made said decision, good luck! There is a mountain of paper that is supposed to provide accountability but in actual fact masks it because you have to find the right papers first, and with so much paper in play, that is no mean feat. Not to mention the original decision can be obscured behind levels of bureaucracy.

And that is just one level, the ordering of the weapons themselves. Now throw into the mix that there is the production of parts for the weapons, and below that the materials for the parts, and below that the resources for the materials. Everyone in a war is clamouring for their necessary inputs, and odds are there isn't enough to go around, and what does all too often goes to the wrong place. Factory A needs ten thousand widgets and twenty thousand doo-hickies, but while they have enough widgets, they are far short of doo-hickies. Meanwhile factory B - 500 kms away - needs five thousand widgets, and twelve thousand doo-hickies, but while they have enough doo-hickies, are really short on widgets. Now neither factory can make enough of what they are supposed to be making, but at least if their materials had been shared they could have both made more than they did - but that isn't the way it works.

Plus a lot of regular stuff isn't ordered by the head of the government, nor by the minster of defence, nor by the General staff, nor by even anybody with a commission. Its by some clerk in supply who is buried under his own mountain of bureaucratic paper and conflicting verbal orders and trying to do the best he can without just deciding to see how big a boom all the grenades in the bunker would make if he pulled the pin on one and left it with the stack.

THEN you get to add in enemy action, accidents, and everything else that can possible go wrong, and what you want has nothing to do with what you get.

I'm rarely surprised anymore by things going wrong, I'm more surprised things work out as well as they do!


Frankly, I think it more appropriate - and realistic - that weapons production should be fixed for all sides and simply declared as outside the scope of the game, move along, nothing to see here. Even then a little randomization should be occurring to account for all the random factors (and yes, that means sometimes everything lines up and they have a good month which exceeds projected production).


Now, what you do with it is another matter. What units the army assembles is really up to them, and more than a few units existed mostly on paper for years. If you have the manpower and the equipment, go ahead, make a XYZ division, and if you don't have enough of something for it to be battle worthy, that is your problem.


Or just do the typical game thing - These are the reinforcements you get, they show up at this time, if you don't like it, feel free to go back in time and complain to the people in charge back then. You get this many replacements (which is very generic; manpower, light tanks, medium tanks, fighters, light bombers, medium bombers, etc.) they will replace lost units of that type out of your combat formations, if they aren't adequate, tough.

Hell, that sounds more like the military in the real world.
"What do we have?"
"What they gave us."
"Is it enough?"
"Its going to have to be."


But nobody asked me...

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 47
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/28/2011 1:34:21 AM   
KamilS

 

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quote:

neuromancer

Production was - and is - a really quite complicated affair, and couldn't really be changed just because Stalin or Hitler suddenly said "make more of X!"


Actually production in Germany looked a bit like that.

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Post #: 48
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/28/2011 3:01:38 AM   
cookie monster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

quote:

neuromancer

Production was - and is - a really quite complicated affair, and couldn't really be changed just because Stalin or Hitler suddenly said "make more of X!"


Actually production in Germany looked a bit like that.


Although I'm not a military history grognard like some of you.

One must remember the ME262 was ordered to be made into a Bomber by Hitler.

This prevented it's earlier introduction as a Fighter.

IIRC Stalin ordered more ground attack aircraft I think it was the Shturmavich?? spelling

(in reply to KamilS)
Post #: 49
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/28/2011 3:38:46 AM   
bdtj1815

 

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Whilst I can see the rationale about the production system I wish I, as the Axis player, could send some of my excess German planes to my Allies. In my present pbem game I have "protected" the Luftwaffe and upgraded most air units. I now have over 1,000 fighters and bombers of earlier variants than equip my German units. Although the Axis Allies are short of good planes I cannot send them these, even if they have been previously equipped with them, so are all these Heinkel 111 3's, ME 109 E's and JU 87B's, now useless? The same question could also apply to ground equipment such as tanks, if I survive the 41-42 winter with any left!!

< Message edited by bdtj1815 -- 5/28/2011 3:56:40 AM >

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Post #: 50
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/28/2011 4:06:29 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

quote:

neuromancer

Production was - and is - a really quite complicated affair, and couldn't really be changed just because Stalin or Hitler suddenly said "make more of X!"


Actually production in Germany looked a bit like that.


Although I'm not a military history grognard like some of you.

One must remember the ME262 was ordered to be made into a Bomber by Hitler.

This prevented it's earlier introduction as a Fighter.




According to William Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich, it was the engines more than Hitler.


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Post #: 51
RE: German players quitting: a problem? - 5/28/2011 6:38:22 AM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster
IIRC Stalin ordered more ground attack aircraft I think it was the Shturmavich?? spelling


It wasn't that he ordered more. He felt that a plant that was building them wasn't doing a very good job of it and wanted a higher rate of production. He personally visited the plant and informed the plant manager that the troops were in dire need of the planes and that Soviet soldiers were dying because his plant wasn't making enough of them. The fact that Stalin visited the plant and delivered the message personally was a good indication of how badly he wanted the Il-2 produced.

This, of course, was a threat of death if things didn't improve. Production increased and the plant manager survived.

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