RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games

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RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 4:37:30 PM

morganbj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Hex based wargames have been around since the early seventies.

Surely longer than that. IIRC AH's Gettysburg was a hex game; that was about 1961

The original Gettysburg had squares. I think it was in 61 it became hexes, so you're correct. But, D-Day was certainly published around 1961 and had hexes, so it may have been the first. Hell, I can't remember. (I first played Tactics, not Tactics II mind you, and it had squares and round counters. I think the counters had "Tnk", "Inf", "Abn" on them. Whatever it was, it was real simple.)

But the point is that PG was NOT the first hex-based game. In fact, I'm not sure it was the first hex-based PC game. Talonsoft published four or five games that year that are hex-based. (I still have every Talonsoft game published.)

PG was fun to play, up to a point, but was never more than a beer and pretzels game, IMO. It appealed to those who did not necessarily demand serious historical context. I played it for a month or two, then gave it away to a kid down the street. I just didn't care for it.

And as for the NATO symbols ... I ALWAYS use them. If a game has two modes, one NATO symbols, one sprites of some kind, I ALWAYS select the symbols. The only exception might be, for example, one of the good battlefield games, like Talonsoft's Gettysburg, when I occasionally turned on the sprites just to see what the battlefield looked like at some point in time. I always turned them off to actually playe the game.

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Post #: 61

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:05:40 PM

abulbulian

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Chris,

I think you really 'stirred up the pot' with a thread title of 'NATO symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games'. Granted it's only an opinion of yours, but it really is quite a heavy statement. I've been playing war games from board to computer for over 20 years and even have helped design a few. Personally I feel your statement is extremely naive and will really limit your ability to enjoy the wealth of great war games out there that only have NATO counters. So I actually feel sorry for you, because your attitude towards WWII games and NATO symbols will cause you to miss an opportunity to play the BEST computer strategy game ever on the market. Yes, WitE is that good a game and only getting better with each patch thanks to the contribution of these forum members and a dedicated group of developers and testers.

Chirs, I hope someday you can look past the NATO symbols in WitE, because I think if you can you'll have a great experience with the game as so many of us have had.

For me I absolutely LOVE the NATO symbols in WitE. I'm with Kirk that it's hard to take a grand strategy war game at this scale (bat/rgt/div/corps/army) serious if it doesn't have NATO symbols representing units.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 6/8/2011 5:07:55 PM >

(in reply to Theng)

Post #: 62

RE: Nato Symbols only are a NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:10:28 PM

bwheatley

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

I read about WITE about a year ago and was really looking forward for this game. I did not checked back on this title until now as I thought it to be a good idea to wait for some patches after release to flatten out the biggest issues (those who play Paradox Hearts of Iron and other grand strategy games know why...LOL)
Anyway, today I thought to have a look on this game and read thru the forum and watched some youtube videos to see if its the great title I was expecting and I have to say:
Its a real pity but there is no way Iam going to bother with a WWII game wich uses only NATO symbols. Those who played the original Panzer General will remember how immersive it was despite the fact that its mechanics where a lot more simple but players got seriously attached to their units as you could see grow their experinece (the gold stars) and the Player was not stearing on some metaforical NATO symbols who dont provide any atmosphere at all. With todays graphics it would have been megaeasy to make some nice individual sprites for each unit and unti type (main unit) and for each individual country and implement one more zoom level to be able to appreciate them and to give the impression of some closer control.
The devs should really re-install the first Panzer General and play a few turns to be remembered what direct Player-Control means (move-attack or attack-move) and to realize how much better and immersive it is to have unit sprites instead of those crappy Nato symbols (besides...there was no Nato in WWII as far as I remember so it feels totally off to have to play with them)...

Just a shame...a first post really should be something positive

I would have enjoyed Panzer General more with NATO counters. I am the exact opposite of you for games (like Advanced Tactics) which don't have NATO counters i like going out to mod them to implement NATO designs. It's the simplicity that lets you look over the map in a glance and see what's going on.
How much more immersive can you get then looking at a tactical board with the same counters real generals would be looking at. :) They won't be looking at a map with pretty sprites to depict unit locations.

To each their own. Your post would have had a little more weight if you had decided not to use the word "crappy".

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(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 63

RE: Nato Symbols only are a NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:12:33 PM

abulbulian

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OMG a bwheatley sighting.

^ 100

+1

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Post #: 64

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:15:12 PM

bwheatley

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I do agree that in the end Paradox gets it figured out. :) HOI series are great. But they too have nato icons you can use. yay :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Still, Neuromance, admit it....a little animated Panzer V over-running a 45mm AT gun would be cool.

this well...sort of

quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
And yes this game does have a much steeper learning curve than HoI3. I have the game, its not a hard game to learn or play. Especially the vanilla version (helps that the AI blows).

HoI III brings a lot of automation which is good for the more casual player..
HoI II is considerably harder...but anyway...steep learning curves can be an indication of design flaws too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
I'll take the solid game play and superior support of someone like Matrix over Paradox's crap coding and poor support any day.

thas simply untrue...on the long run Paradox always get their games running very nice and the massive Paradox Community is proove of that.
Besides...HoI II and III are various times as complicated as WITP or WITE as they feature hundreds of countrys who have to work actually ingame with their own AI managing production,diplomacy,trade,espionage and warfare independently which country the player chooses and they run real time. If you would know something about programming you would be aware of that fact and not judging about crappy coding while having no clue what you are talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
Sure, little tanks and guys fighting does look cool, but that's an RTS, not a large scale strategy game like this.

arrrghhh...you getting worse with each post...HoI II or III is grand strategy on a worldwide scale...so do EU II or III and they do use sprites and povide great immersion...so ?

Anyway...I made my point...there is no need for me adding further things neither getting carried away in pointless disussions. .

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Post #: 65

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:20:43 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
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From: Germany,living in Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

I do agree that in the end Paradox gets it figured out. :) HOI series are great. But they too have nato icons you can use. yay :)

thats the point...nato symbols you CAN use...yay

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
To each their own. Your post would have had a little more weight if you had decided not to use the word "crappy".

you are right...Iam going to correct that...thnx for being reasonable on the subject

Iam totally aware that the hardcore players use them but where is the bad about having one more zoom lvl where players can use sprites (current hex size is to small)...its just an option adding diversity and maybe attract more casual players who dont want the dry stuff and need to see some actual infantry or tanks moving across the board...I mean on a board game they usually use little figures if they can get them and not chips,do they ?...If not for the zoom lvl the thing could be modded but it needs bigger hexes for displaying 2d sprites in an acceptable quality and size)

btw the nato symbols dont carry any more info themself as a sprite as they only indicate infantry,tank,air...etc..the real info is provided by the pop up boxes. Again..I dont ask for 3d modelled sprites with moving animation...just for basic sprites indicating air,tank,infantry div etc on first sight without having to bother about miltary symbols...something really basic

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 5:34:12 PM >

(in reply to bwheatley)

Post #: 66

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:35:56 PM

abulbulian

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HOI could have been a great game, but they decided to make it a RTS ( = FAIL IMO). Guess I'm just old school.

Although, for those that might remember an old SSI(Billngs, Grigsby, Keating, Krogel, Koger) classic: Objective Kursk that had a very ingenious movement/combat phase. Basically each side plotted out a unit's movement and/or bombardments. Then then each sides moves would be executed simultaneously. Units that tried to occupy the same hex during the same segment (1..4) would have combat. Both players would watch the outcome.

Really enjoyed that game and it had a nice feel for the chaos of the battlefield and trying to actually out maneuver your opponent. This concept could be sophisticated a bit more and make a great alternative to the IGUO war game format.

Joel, if you read this maybe you can respond to why that type of movement/combat execution never caught on?

nice tie Joel

check out that Apple ][(+, e, ?) in the back. how in the world did we ever get by with 64k (maybe this one had 128k)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 6/8/2011 5:40:51 PM >

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Post #: 67

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:44:48 PM

henri51

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That kind of play is called WEGO and it still can be found in many games, for example Panzer Command.

Henri

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Post #: 68

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:58:19 PM

abulbulian

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Yes, forgot. Just have not seen it in any recent computer war games I've played. It's a little difficult to implement in a board game.

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Post #: 69

RE: Nato Symbols only are a NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:59:38 PM

carnifex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

Just a shame...a first post really should be something positive

Most everyone here considers PG to be a light-weight beer and pretzels game for people who don't wargame much. So extolling its virtues over and over and over really doesn't score you any points. Personally I played the crap out of it and its sequels, they were nice games, but they weren't real wargames. They were toy soldiers games, with nearly-fictitious scenarios, maps, OOBs, and mechanics and results far far far removed from reality.

I believe this and almost everyone here in the forum believes this, so you're beating your head against the wall. To some people PG is still cool and they're busy creating user content or mods for it, but they don't live here. We're more hardcore than that. I'm not saying this as some kind of elitist jerk, but this forum prefers insane amounts of detail, cluttered maps, and tons of hard to read information screens to a simplified presentation like you describe. We don't want our developers to give a rat's ass about sprites when they have muzzle velocities to fix.

Another point is that by the time PG was released there were dozens and dozens of hex-based wargames, so there's nothing original there. I had SSI and AH games that used sprites, nato symbols, outlines, blocks and bars, numbers, and plain text that was used to convey unit information, so again it's not like PG pioneered anything. They dumbed it down for the masses, sprinkled it with color and funny explosions and enjoyed some popularity because of it.

We understand. We get it. You like cute sprites and that's a deal breaker for you. We prefer mechanics over presentation. That's why WITE is expensive. Because it caters to what we want, and we're not the most numerous group of consumers around, but we are willing to spend the money Matrix asks for and we hope that keeps the process going.

< Message edited by carnifex -- 6/8/2011 6:00:58 PM >

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 70

RE: Nato Symbols only are a NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 6:05:37 PM

abulbulian

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Well said carnifex!

+1

Although I would add that WitE really doesn't compromise too much on the presentation (quite beautiful out of the box) for what it offers on it's grand scale. Some of the map/UI mods /I've seen are quiet exceptional too.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 6/8/2011 6:09:39 PM >

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Post #: 71

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 6:14:40 PM

Lieste

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Well, technically that is more or less exactly what BFTB/COTA etal are:

Square cell based* one minute per "turn", plotted multi-turn movement and fire orders.
Enhanced with AI control/use of subordinate units on both sides (in accordance with orders given to higher HQ).

*100m per cell, unit footprint superimposed in metres (vector) onto the square grid.

Runs in continuous time, but pause-able so that orders can be given, reports browsed, toilet calls answered etc.

It does have both NATO and sprite icons though, but only 'ittle-bitty ones.

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 72

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 6:28:56 PM

AZKGungHo

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I have to say that I HATED Panzer General, and that I LOVE NATO Symbols in all my WW2 games except the very low level tactical ones. Having tanks etc on the counters just makes me feel like I'm back in 3rd grade or something.

Just my humble opinion!

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Post #: 73

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 6:52:58 PM

Garth Vader

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I played HOI with sprites, and couldn't stand the counters. But I can't imagine playing WITE with sprites. Weird.

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Post #: 74

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 8:04:46 PM

Chris10

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From: Germany,living in Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Garth Vader

I played HOI with sprites, and couldn't stand the counters. But I can't imagine playing WITE with sprites. Weird.

at least you had a choice, did you ?

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Post #: 75

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 8:30:26 PM

HRL58

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For me it works like this:

Turn based operational games = Symbols
RTS or low scale tactical games, like single squads and tanks = Icons

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Post #: 76

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 8:53:52 PM

Theng

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

quote:

ORIGINAL: Garth Vader

I played HOI with sprites, and couldn't stand the counters. But I can't imagine playing WITE with sprites. Weird.

at least you had a choice, did you ?

Chris,

you have a choice too. You can mod the game and make it yourself. 99% of the players here would rather prefer a gamer to provide the sprites to "the masses" than the developers. Their talents are best used for other, more valuable tasks.

Xian

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Post #: 77

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 9:52:20 PM

Chris10

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From: Germany,living in Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xian
Chris,

you have a choice too. You can mod the game and make it yourself. 99% of the players here would rather prefer a gamer to provide the sprites to "the masses" than the developers. Their talents are best used for other, more valuable tasks.

Xian

Unfortunately it is easier said than done...on the current max zoom the hex fields are to small to display sprites/icons in a way so that they actually make some sense and look nice...another zoom level would be needed but this requieres a little change in the engine, the map and the user interface...I doubt that this can be modded to look professional not to mention the sprites/icons.
As well it would be necessary to make the different country units use of different sprites which would requiere another change in the engine (assign an additional unique path for each unit type depending on country/type which tga image to use. I suppose they are tga) plus a swap over function that from 2nd zoom level the nato symbols come back by default cause sprites/icons get to small (so that the sprites are actually only displayed when zoomed in full)and an on/off button in the game-options so that people can make use of the icons/sprites or not...so all in all there would be some work to do but without official dev support this is not possible...
but I bet it would look really nice when done and implemented properly

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 10:01:58 PM >

(in reply to Theng)

Post #: 78

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:08:23 PM

fbs

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With all this talk of NATO counters...

...APP 6A didn't start from scratch. I'm pretty sure that the X for infantry comes from the two crossed bandoliers, which may be from before WW1.

Anyone actually has some pictures of the symbols used by the Germans and Soviets during WW2?

< Message edited by fbs -- 6/8/2011 10:09:42 PM >

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 79

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:10:47 PM

Omat

Posts: 2414
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Hello

I am not sure if it is right..maybe this :

He wrotes that these are from the official German handbook of military symbols (H.Dv. 272) of 1938 :

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_39.html

Omat

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs

With all this talk of NATO counters...

...APP 6A didn't start from scratch. I'm pretty sure that the X for infantry comes from the two crossed bandoliers, which may be from before WW1.

Anyone actually has some pictures of the symbols used by the Germans and Soviets during WW2?

< Message edited by Omat -- 6/8/2011 10:13:55 PM >

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Post #: 80

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:20:53 PM

Theng

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xian
Chris,

you have a choice too. You can mod the game and make it yourself. 99% of the players here would rather prefer a gamer to provide the sprites to "the masses" than the developers. Their talents are best used for other, more valuable tasks.

Xian

Unfortunately it is easier said than done...on the current max zoom the hex fields are to small to display sprites/icons in a way so that they actually make some sense and look nice...another zoom level would be needed but this requieres a little change in the engine, the map and the user interface...I doubt that this can be modded to look professional not to mention the sprites/icons.
As well it would be necessary to make the different country units use of different sprites which would requiere another change in the engine (assign an additional unique path for each unit type depending on country/type which tga image to use. I suppose they are tga) plus a swap over function that from 2nd zoom level the nato symbols come back by default cause sprites/icons get to small (so that the sprites are actually only displayed when zoomed in full)and an on/off button in the game-options so that people can make use of the icons/sprites or not...so all in all there would be some work to do but without official dev support this is not possible...
but I bet it would look really nice when done and implemented properly

So we are back to a lack of information density with sprites. In any case, if you get more people to support your cause (which you haven't really yet based on an informal tally in this thread) then the devs might actually help you. They are incredibly responsive to the needs of the player base.

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Post #: 81

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:27:01 PM

HRL58

Posts: 61
Joined: 5/22/2011
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat

Hello

I am not sure if it is right..maybe this :

He wrotes that these are from the official German handbook of military symbols (H.Dv. 272) of 1938 :

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_39.html

Omat

One of Niehorsters symbols is quite interresting: "Light tank company (truck-borne)". I think these where used by the german light divisions in Poland 1939, and the divisons armoured battallion sometimes "trucked" their light Pz I companys into combat on heavy B�ssing-NAG trucks and offloaded them prior to engagement.

(in reply to Omat)

Post #: 82

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:31:14 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
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From: Germany,living in Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs

With all this talk of NATO counters...

...APP 6A didn't start from scratch. I'm pretty sure that the X for infantry comes from the two crossed bandoliers, which may be from before WW1.

Anyone actually has some pictures of the symbols used by the Germans and Soviets during WW2?

Neither Germans nor Russians did used symbols in military maps anyway...they always used acronyms of the units types and numbers.
The added map is an original wehrmacht map describing combat missions of the 1st tank army around the Don in Juli/August 42.
There are plenty of original German and Russian miitary maps on the net and none makes use of counters or symbols and in High Commands they used actual miniature models to push around on huge map tables

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 10:41:16 PM >

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Post #: 83

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:39:22 PM

Joel Billings

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I understand the desire by some to play with weapons icons instead of NATO symbols and don't want to belittle it. I worked on Panzer General and loved it and understand where Chris10 is coming from. As pointed out later in the thread, providing the weapons icons that are more than just a simple "generic" icon to replace each NATO symbol would require coding work (especially if you wanted more than one per country per unit type, i.e. to show changing weapons over time). We made a decision early on that due to the target audience of this product, we could not afford the time and resources to provide this option for the few that would use it. We actually provided both options in our Civil War game War Between the States. However given the information that the counters provide and the detailed nature of this game, and the customer base we were targeting, we just didn't think there would be many players that would feel strongly about the need for icons and decided to use our limited resources on other items. I wish we had unlimited resources and could provide this option, but we don't as we don't think it would result in more than a few extra sales of the game.

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(in reply to HRL58)

Post #: 84

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:40:54 PM

HRL58

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From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs

With all this talk of NATO counters...

...APP 6A didn't start from scratch. I'm pretty sure that the X for infantry comes from the two crossed bandoliers, which may be from before WW1.

Anyone actually has some pictures of the symbols used by the Germans and Soviets during WW2?

Germans did not used symbols in military maps anyway...they always used acronyms of the units types and numbers.
The added map is an original wehrmacht map describing combat missions of the 1st tank army around the Don in Juli/August 42

Thats not a military map, that's a map summarizing the operations for the staff in Berlin or for the public. A real german military map had the symbols that Omat describes in the link

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 85

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:52:06 PM

henri51

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HRL, I don't see any symbol for say an infantry division or Corps. Is the HQ symbol itseld supposed to represent the division or corps?

Henri

(in reply to HRL58)

Post #: 86

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:58:19 PM

HRL58

Posts: 61
Joined: 5/22/2011
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

HRL, I don't see any symbol for say an infantry division or Corps. Is the HQ symbol itseld supposed to represent the division or corps?

Henri

As I said, this map is for the public ...to show the operations for the homefront, politicians or higher staff.

A real german military map att division, corps or army level would have the following symbols shown here:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_39.html

/HRL58

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Post #: 87

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 10:59:16 PM

Omat

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Hello

The first row shows it (Army, Corps, Division and so on).... the little flag

There a two symbos..one shows the unit strengh and one the type..

here is an example:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/43_organ/43-05-19_rhodos.html

Omat

quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

HRL, I don't see any symbol for say an infantry division or Corps. Is the HQ symbol itseld supposed to represent the division or corps?

Henri

_____________________________

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
Bertrand Russell

(in reply to henri51)

Post #: 88

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 11:08:18 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HRL58
Thats not a military map, that's a map summarizing the operations for the staff in Berlin or for the public. A real german military map had the symbols that Omat describes in the link

could you please provide some of these "real" military maps for me/us ?
I really would appreciate that...

quote:

ORIGINAL: HRL58
As I said, this map is for the public ...to show the operations for the homefront, politicians or higher staff.

A real german military map att division, corps or army level would have the following symbols shown here:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_39.html
/HRL58

Can you actually proove that statement my friend ?

those maps where usually hand drawn and showed operations of about 8 days...neither germans, russians nor the allies bothered with symbols

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 11:26:28 PM >

(in reply to HRL58)

Post #: 89

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 11:26:30 PM

HRL58

Posts: 61
Joined: 5/22/2011
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

quote:

ORIGINAL: HRL58
Thats not a military map, that's a map summarizing the operations for the staff in Berlin or for the public. A real german military map had the symbols that Omat describes in the link

could you please provide some of these "real" military maps for me/us ?
I really would appreciate that...

quote:

ORIGINAL: HRL58
As I said, this map is for the public ...to show the operations for the homefront, politicians or higher staff.

A real german military map att division, corps or army level would have the following symbols shown here:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_39.html
/HRL58

Can you actually proove that statement my friend ?

Sure, give me a day or so to get a scanner and i will post a military map from SS-das Reich division from the battle at Charkov 1943.

And if i find one on the net i post earlier

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 90