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RE: Wish List Thread - 1/1/2009 2:54:09 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 10/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Harpoon has always had such a great "potential", but it's always never been seized. 3 full versions and since the first version the same problems remains (and hence why it is where it is today) - graphics, graphic, graphics. It's not something that can be casually dismissed as "yea, but that's a lot of work". That "busy" work is THE reason Harpoon is where it is today. ALL modern applications seriously address graphics - EVEN WORD PROCESSORS! Harpoon was abandoned en-mass by the community (customer / major game investment) bar-none for lack of asthetic appeal (i.e. loss of immersion / user friendly UI - especially required for complex environments).

And then there's someone like me. I am today (2009) running Harpoon Classic on a Power Mac. Due to lack of memory, I can't even use color. Yes, people, all units are simply primitive black or white icons.

The reason this works for me is because for me, the whole game/simulation is about the complex of ideas that represent the situation. The icons are simply physical representations of the abstract ideas that exist in some abstract space.

There are games I play purely for the graphics. Harpoon is something else.

Just as an aside, and I doubt that anyone here will know what I am talking about: Fifth Frontier War map.

OK, I will relent (primarily because I found this with a 5 s Google search):

http://www.jtas.net/travelleratlas/FifthFrontierWar/War.html

and

http://www.jtas.net/travelleratlas/FifthFrontierWar/War_Map.html

which is pretty much the most beautiful map I have ever seen, and it uses only the most basic color palette.

(in reply to fsleeper)
Post #: 91
RE: Wish List Thread - 1/1/2009 3:21:29 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 10/30/2008
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quote:

while it hurts me personally to hear you speak of the work I've done as if it is nothing I'd rather hear it and at least have a chance to know about it than not ever knowing.

Tony, due to the previous post, I need to say this. You (and Brad, and Herman, and probably Freek) are the Harpoon gods (and I apologize if I slight anybody). Without you there would BE no Harpoon.

I am running Harpoon Classic (black and white) on an old PowerMac. I cannot at present upgrade either my hardware or software. (But I have accessed the HCE demo.) This is one of the reasons why some of my previous posts have left people wondering what I was talking about (there are a few incompatiblities with HCE, in particular the sonar system).

I first got into this forum a few weeks ago, when I did a Google search on some questions I had about Harpoon Classic. I have found here an enormous amount of valuable information, and that's one of the main things I care about.

Gentlemen, I am extremely impressed with your work.

Victor In The Pacific

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 92
RE: Wish List Thread - 1/1/2009 3:31:49 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 10/30/2008
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quote:

2) <dead horse> SAM control </dead horse>. I like the ability to control global SAM fire rates/engagement ranges. I'd like this to be granular to the individual platform and be able tell a platform not to fire SAMs (besides turning their radar off). Better yet I'd like to be able to issue engagement priorities to each platform - not issue orders for SAM fire itself, just limit a platform as what to target its' SAMs at.

Example - Select the Bunker Hill in the unit window, click the SAM control button in it's Details window and scroll down/map click to tell it to concentrate on Missile Group XYZ. It would do this until Missile Group XYZ ceased to exist and then go back to automatic mode.

Some sort of graphic next to the icon in the unit window, like the lightning bolt used for jamming, would indicate that a platform is under individual SAM control and would help management. ("Why doesn't the Bunker Hill fire! Oh yeah, I told it not too!")

I think that the computer SAM control routines are inadequate. I haven't tested it out in depth in HCE, but the way it is in HC is sufficiently bad that if it is that way in real life, the system designers should be shot for treason.

How many 2-letter words starting with i did I just use?

(in reply to darknite)
Post #: 93
RE: Wish List Thread - 1/1/2009 3:35:15 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 10/30/2008
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quote:

1) There may be a case for better graphics, but the Harpoon series of games is surely aimed at a relatively small niche market: naval personnel and serious stragegists/tacticians. The average commercial computer game is designed for high initial sales, with a much shorter commercial life. Games come and games go, but products like Harpoon, Steel Panthers, Combat Mission and the Campaign series will always be around due to their basic excellence. Even with the advent of super whizzo 3D graphics, there is still nothing to touch them.

agree
quote:

2) The cartoon ship graphics showing missiles being fired, and incoming may be crude but in my humble opinion, they are very effective indeed! This may be the wrong forum for this, but would sombody in authority please consider including them in H3ANW in a future patch? I much prefer them to the launch and strike videos and when one of your ships takes incoming fire, the cartoon graphic really brings it home to you that the symbol being attacked is really an actual vessel.

agree

(in reply to PongoDeMer)
Post #: 94
RE: Wish List Thread - 1/1/2009 5:05:03 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific

quote:

Harpoon was abandoned en-mass by the community (customer / major game investment) bar-none for lack of asthetic appeal (i.e. loss of immersion / user friendly UI - especially required for complex environments).




Must be happening in an alternate bizarro universe somewhere.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
Post #: 95
RE: Wish List Thread - 1/1/2009 8:14:52 PM   
Vincenzo_Beretta


Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific
Just as an aside, and I doubt that anyone here will know what I am talking about: Fifth Frontier War map.


I did. My first space wargame, actually, back in the late '70s

_____________________________


(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
Post #: 96
RE: Wish List Thread - 1/31/2009 8:25:22 PM   
Firebird

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 1/31/2009
Status: offline 		Gents,
I must confess that my background is the Air Force, so my wish is from something that we used to practice all the time and would be useful for saving valuable resources in the game.
I would like there to be a Survival Scramble option for all air bases. When this was actioned all the aircraft on the ground would immediately, and singularly get airborne at the earliest opportunity and fly to a preset area to avoid loss on the ground. You could also designate zones from the base where the holding area would be.
In an ideal world you could also break this down so for example you could place fighters in the threat axis and strike aircraft, or AWACS away from it. I realize though that this breakdown may be just too much for coding to be done.
Could this done?


_____________________________

Steve


Quid Si Coelum Ruat

(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)
Post #: 97
RE: Wish List Thread - 2/1/2009 2:08:52 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebird
Could this done?


Such a thing could be done. Such a thing is highly unlikely to be done given the time required for the reward. Plus it is awfully easy to flush all of your birds manually, split em once they are airborne and proceed.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Firebird)
Post #: 98
RE: Wish List Thread - 2/1/2009 7:40:20 AM   
YankeeAirRat


Posts: 633
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		I have found it easy to simulate the scramble option via launching groups of two into various patrol points near the base. That way if needed I can then send them to land at another base if their "home" was destroyed. I have found flights of two aircraft take really quick when compared to trying a mass launch of everything and then trying to split the group.

_____________________________

Take my word for it. You never want to be involved in an “International Incident”.

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 99
RE: Wish List Thread - 2/3/2009 12:40:11 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 10/30/2008
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quote:

I would like there to be a Survival Scramble option for all air bases. When this was actioned all the aircraft on the ground would immediately, and singularly get airborne at the earliest opportunity and fly to a preset area to avoid loss on the ground.


A comment about this, and notwithstanding Tony's previous reply:

I think that this is pretty important in particular for the AI.

If a human player is about to lose an airbase, you have options. I need to ask you, if your base is about to be wiped out, or even if it is about to damaged, why do you still have ANY aircraft on the ground? They should have been in the air long ago, doing something useful.

But how many times are you attacking a computer base, and the AI just leaves its planes on the ground to die? I suppose if you're just doing small amounts of damage, the planes are not really at serious risk, but if the base is about to get blown up, the AI should certainly be doing a survival scramble.

I show an example of this problem in fairly gory detail in my "No Man's Land" AAR. Playing as the Soviet player, I was significantly outnumbered in aircraft quality-wise, if not quantity-wise (but my surface force was vastly superior to the NATO one). What I did was spend the first part of the scenario grinding down one of the NATO bases with MANY airstrikes with second-rate aircraft. During the course of this, the AI never figured out what I was doing. I was not able to kill very many airplanes on the ground. However, when the final airstrike went in, I destroyed a bunch of them, and this is when they definitely should have scrambled. Well, perhaps they were all re-arming. Since the planes on the other NATO airbase took essentially no part in the battle, I was able to freely dismantle the NATO fleet in the second part of the scenario.

Now I am not offering to do any programming, and I think that Harpoon does an excellent job of simulating this type of combat, but I have to say that this is a flaw in the AI that a human can always take advantage of.

< Message edited by VictorInThePacific -- 2/3/2009 12:55:49 AM >

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 100
RE: Wish List Thread - 2/3/2009 7:49:08 PM   
karpftj

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		Most of the following are of most use for the computer opponent.

1) When launching aircraft (whether to attack, ferry, or patrol), have a 'launch via waypoint' option. This would, for example, allow you to launch strike aircraft from one base in Scandinavia and hit Keflavik from three different directions. This would be especially useful for having more intelligent attack options for the computer. Otherwise, it's easy to park defensive aircraft around Keflavik to defend the vectors that you KNOW the opponent will launch ground-based aircraft from.

2) When launching aircraft, have a 'loiter over unit' button that would allow an aircraft carrier to easily protect (i.e. CAP) other groups.

3) When launching patrol aircraft, have some way of setting a patrol area (either set a rectangular area, or perhaps define a radius within which to patrol). This would be especially helpful when sending out long-range ASW assets that are patrolling large areas of the ocean. Patrol aircraft that go to one fixed point are of limited use.

4) Make surface groups AFRAID of subs. There have been numerous times when I've charged a carrier group with a single SSN (i.e. running at max speed at any depth) and have had no problems closing to a couple of miles before sinking their carriers. Ideally, surface groups should treat subs that are detected at close range as ACTIVE TORPEDOES.

5) Carrier groups should aggressively prosecute attacks against detected subs. As long as the sub is detected, launch an ASW platform every couple of minutes. Don't depend on that single ASW helicopter to attack that sub.

6) Have the ability to set the posture of a group. Options might include 'Cautious - run away from enemy combatants', 'Sneaky - Move SLOWLY away from enemy combatants unless they get TOO close', 'Assertive - prosecute enemies you have a reasonable chance to defeat', and 'Aggressive - Attack the closest opponent at maximum speed'.

7) Have a way to temporarily toggle the visibility of various types of units (i.e. Mine, Enemy, My Weapons, Enemy Weapons) to make it easier to select your sub that's being attacked from eight different directions by torpedoes that are less than two miles away.

8) Have a way to launch a 'shotgun' attack from a group of aircraft. There have been cases ('The Carriers Move North' and 'Land of Fire and Ice') where I KNOW that there is a surface group in an area, but don't want to pop up and active the radar on my aircraft group. It would be useful to be able to launch a shotgun attack that would launch N groups of M missiles each, with all of the groups targeting a series of positions along a line somewhere. Now that trails for missile groups don't show up any more, it makes it difficult to neatly do something like that manually. This could be displayed either as N groups, or as a single group.

< Message edited by karpftj -- 2/3/2009 10:50:14 PM >

(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
Post #: 101
RE: Wish List Thread - 2/3/2009 8:25:02 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: karpftj
How about a way to launch an air attack (or just a patrol) with a via point?  That way you could set up a multi-axis attack against a target without needing to manage the assets once they've launched.  Specifically, this would be most helpful as a way to let the computer opponent get sneaky.  Otherwise, it's relatively easy to set up picket aircraft on the vector that you KNOW ground-based aircraft will take.


Far more useful than a scramble button, imho.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to karpftj)
Post #: 102
RE: Wish List Thread - 2/3/2009 11:48:36 PM   
karpftj

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		Forgot two more:

1)  When creating a course, have a toggle for 'sub avoidance'.  This will turn the ACTUAL path (not the path drawn by the user) into one that makes 90 degree turns every some number of miles (each leg would vary between five and ten miles).   The net effect of this would be that the group would essentially be following the path at 71% of the speed the group is told to move.

2)  When creating a course, have a toggle for 'sprint and drift'.  This would turn the ACTUAL path (again, not the path drawn by the user) into one with speed changes every some number of miles that results in the group spending half the distance traveled moving at CREEP speed and the other half at whatever speed the group is told to move.

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 103
RE: Wish List Thread - 2/4/2009 5:21:06 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 10/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

8) Have a way to launch a 'shotgun' attack from a group of aircraft. There have been cases ('The Carriers Move North' and 'Land of Fire and Ice') where I KNOW that there is a surface group in an area, but don't want to pop up and active the radar on my aircraft group. It would be useful to be able to launch a shotgun attack that would launch N groups of M missiles each, with all of the groups targeting a series of positions along a line somewhere. Now that trails for missile groups don't show up any more, it makes it difficult to neatly do something like that manually. This could be displayed either as N groups, or as a single group.


Would bearing-only-launch (keyboard b) be useful for this?

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 104
RE: Wish List Thread - 2/4/2009 11:25:14 AM   
karpftj

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific

quote:

Now that trails for missile groups don't show up any more, it makes it difficult to neatly do something like that manually. This could be displayed either as N groups, or as a single group.


Would bearing-only-launch (keyboard b) be useful for this?


That's the way I did it in Harpoon Classic. As I mentioned, since WEAPON trails don't show up any more, it is now MUCH harder to do neatly. Previously, I could SEE the paths that had already been set up.

On the other hand, if the OK/CANCEL dialog for 'did you want to do a bearing only attack' had a KEYBOARD way of clicking OK, I could simply keep the mouse pointed at the PREVIOUS target, and could easily select a new position just a little to the north, west, whatever. Since the OK button isn't the DEFAULT choice in that dialogue, doing this sort of attack gets messier.

(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
Post #: 105
RE: Wish List Thread - 8/9/2009 9:27:49 PM   
PongoDeMer

 

Posts: 81
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		There are those of us who, once something juicy, like an enemy carrier group, has been located, will swamp it with wave after wave of smart missiles, such as Harpoon. When the enemy shipboard munitions are finally depleted, their fate becomes inevitable.

Unfortunately, in real-life, the numbers of smart munitions are limited. For example, I seem to remember that only 7000 Harpoon units have been produced so far, the U.S. currently possesses 500 or so of various types, and Taiwan has approximately 50. I would make a wild (and uneducated) guess that the Royal Navy possesses between 150 and 200 units. Please, please feel free to correct me if any/all of this is wide of the mark

Would it be a practical modification to limit the numbers of smart munitions available to shore bases and aircraft carriers? If this were done, those of us who are smart munition junkies would be forced to change our ways and consequently be compelled to develop more realistic tactics if we are to have a cat's chance in hell of winning

Just a thought...

Pongo

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 106
RE: Wish List Thread - 8/10/2009 3:30:13 AM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
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From: The Rock, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PongoDeMer
Would it be a practical modification to limit the numbers of smart munitions available to shore bases and aircraft carriers? If this were done, those of us who are smart munition junkies would be forced to change our ways and consequently be compelled to develop more realistic tactics if we are to have a cat's chance in hell of winning
Just a thought...


Absolutely it would, but unfortunately we don't have a logistics model in HCE presently and it would be quite a large undertaking to create one.

Until that happens, I expect we're stuck with the scenario author trying to put artificial limits on the player's weapons inventory (or the player voluntarily limiting himself).

In the interim, there's a thread at HG for suggestions and discussion about what a logistics model might or should look like.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to PongoDeMer)
Post #: 107
RE: Wish List Thread - 9/10/2009 2:10:49 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline 		Wishes to this point have been added to the master wishlist at http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=3071 (well, I need to do more formatting but it'll be up before I go to bed in an hour or less).


_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 108
RE: Wish List Thread - 10/28/2009 10:30:04 PM   
Nilus

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 10/28/2009
Status: offline 		1: Proportional climb/descent altitude aircraft/helo like HANW 3 (HCE immediately passes low/hight without middle)
2: Implement I.A. ROE with possibility of attack only after enemy attack or provocation (like route blocked or aircraft flying thru enemy naval formation)
3: Elevation of the land or island affects the radar sensors
4: Show all course/path units of the faction
5: Multiplayer support for HCE

(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 109
RE: Wish List Thread - 10/28/2009 10:51:18 PM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nilus

1: Proportional climb/descent altitude aircraft/helo like HANW 3 (HCE immediately passes low/hight without middle)
2: Implement I.A. ROE with possibility of attack only after enemy attack or provocation (like route blocked or aircraft flying thru enemy naval formation)
3: Elevation of the land or island affects the radar sensors
4: Show all course/path units of the faction
5: Multiplayer support for HCE


General note boys & girls, please don't make a wishlist both here and at HarpGamer. We'd much prefer you make them at HarpGamer as they are easier to track there. btw, your #4 has been implemented a while ago (as noted at your HG copy of Wishlist).



_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Nilus)
Post #: 110
Harpoon Classic scenarios - 10/29/2009 12:51:51 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nilus

1: Proportional climb/descent altitude aircraft/helo like HANW 3 (HCE immediately passes low/hight without middle)

[snip]

5: Multiplayer support for HCE

It seems apparent that you already own ANW so I'll ask 'How many games of ANW MP (or any other wargame) have you played?'

_____________________________


(in reply to Nilus)
Post #: 111
RE: Wish List Thread - 1/1/2010 3:09:55 PM   
Brisbin

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline 		Sub acceleration rates so that submarines do not automatically go to full speed.  I heard the russian Alpha class submarine had very good acceleration but most subs take a while to reach full speed.

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 112
RE: Wish List Thread - 1/1/2010 7:27:15 PM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brisbin

Sub acceleration rates so that submarines do not automatically go to full speed.  I heard the russian Alpha class submarine had very good acceleration but most subs take a while to reach full speed.


Out of curiosity, how would you characterize platform acceleration? The H4.1 paper rules have acceleration and turn guidelines but how would you define them?

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Brisbin)
Post #: 113
RE: Wish List Thread - 1/3/2010 6:28:39 PM   
Brisbin

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline 		I am not sure.

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 114
RE: Wish List Thread - 6/21/2011 8:12:23 AM   
donaldseadog

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 8/13/2009
From: canberra australia
Status: offline 		Wish list items to this point incorporated in the consolidated wish list at Harpgamer http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=3071
(or will be soon).
Don Thomas

(in reply to Brisbin)
Post #: 115
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