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Wot,no cavalrymen here?

 
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Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/22/2011 1:10:01 AM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		One minor error with the map art that nobody seems to have picked up is the spelling of the Blue City of Jodhpur - surely someone with equestrian interests should have noticed!

Making the appropriate change to the database is straightforward, but I've gone a bit further and altered the relevant map tile, 01, as shown.

It would be easy enough to use the attached image as source material from which to make your own change to the supplied tile, but I have applied the changes to the hex grid, no grid and WIF variants of the tile and could make them available if anyone is interested. However, they are big files: even zipped they come in at about 4MB, so I think the only way I could make them available via the forum would be to post them in the Tech Support forum, and I'm not sure whether this would be frowned on. Any suggestions? More importantly, any interest?




Attachment (1)

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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/23/2011 3:24:03 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Can't speak to Andrew Brown's philology, but believe both spellings have validity. Perhaps the more accepted modern form is Jodhpur, but Jodphur was in equally common use in the '40s. Even today, one can find both spellings in Indian/Rajahstani textual content, sometimes in the same paragraph.

Your tweak is cool. Just trying to explain why there may not be a lot of interest comments.

The only cavalry puke on the boards is Blackhorse, but then he's really armor, and doesn't wear those funny pants anyway.

Ciao. John

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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/23/2011 5:45:19 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		My horse can't spell so it's good either way to her.



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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 12:15:22 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

My horse can't spell so it's good either way to her.




The sad thing is that your horse can probably spell better than I can.

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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 1:07:11 AM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		Ah well, I admit to becoming an ever more crusty pedant with every day that passes - I convinced myself that there was only one proper spelling, but defer to JWE's greater knowledge of the alternative version's widespread usage. I'm not exactly fluent in Hindi or Rajastani.

Actually, apart from Blackhorse, it occurred to me that fellow countryman Cavalry might have commented on this, as I know he's heavily involved in equestrian activities. I haven't donned a pair of jodhs for more decades than I care to admit, but if someone were to offer me a quiet hack round the countryside I'd gladly accept.

Anyhow, thank you all for the rescue of this thread from utter obscurity. If anyone should happen to want any of the revised tiles, I'm happy to email copies, but bear in mind the file size may breach some people's mailbox limits, so best to check that if there's any doubt. I also have some tiles with Babelthuap substituted for Babeldoab, and Dairen for Port Arthur. And I'm thinking of a version substituting Keelung for Taihoku.

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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 3:36:40 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
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From: Kansas
Status: offline 		There are actually a number of cavalrymen here ... I am not among them, being an Artilleryman!


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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 9:18:35 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

I also have some tiles with Babelthuap substituted for Babeldoab, and Dairen for Port Arthur. And I'm thinking of a version substituting Keelung for Taihoku.


Dairen and Port Arthur were different places. Dairen was a city, known as Dalny to the Russians, and Dalian to the chinese. Port Arthur was a port known as Lüshun to the chinese. The characters for Lüshun pronounced Ryojun in Japanese (but I don't think this transcription was ever used on western maps). The two cities (Dalian and Lushun) were merged into one in the early 1950s, first known as Luta, and then Dalian. In the game, I believe Port Arthur (or Lüshun/Ryojun) better fits what is being represented (a major port).


While we're on spelling, Chinese names on the map are a bit strange. The romanization system used is mostly the postal system in use at the time (hence names like Wenchow), but you also find Wade Giles transcriptions (Tienshui, I believe the postal name should be Tsinchow or something like that), and a few odd mixes (Kiuchuan, which looks like EFEO, ie the french system).

Also KMT names are used for most cities that underwent name changes in this era (eg Peiping, Kweisui) but not all (eg Taiyuan, should be Yangchü, I believe). Some cities have the name of regions (eg Ningsia, correct name is probably Yinchuan).

For the names of pilots and leaders, different romanizations are used, which allow some guys to exist twice under different names (the one I have seen is Fu Zuoyi, who exists as Fu Zsoyi and Fu Tsoyi, leading two units he historically commanded, but at different times).

Francois

< Message edited by fcharton -- 6/24/2011 9:41:36 AM >

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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 11:57:24 AM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Dairen and Port Arthur were different places. Dairen was a city, known as Dalny to the Russians, and Dalian to the chinese. Port Arthur was a port known as Lüshun to the chinese. The characters for Lüshun pronounced Ryojun in Japanese (but I don't think this transcription was ever used on western maps). The two cities (Dalian and Lushun) were merged into one in the early 1950s, first known as Luta, and then Dalian. In the game, I believe Port Arthur (or Lüshun/Ryojun) better fits what is being represented (a major port).


Francois


Francois, I an a complete dunce so far as the different versions of Chinese place names are concerned. I was vaguely aware of the Wade Giles transcription system, but that's about as far as my knowledge of such things extends.

However, I respectfully disagree with your assessment that Port Arthur represents the principal port of the Liaodong Peninsula. Whilst I would not quarrel with Port Arthur/Ryojun being treated as the major naval base for the area whilst under Japanese domination, the strong impression I have received from everything I have read and seen is that Dalny/Dairen/Dalian was developed as the major commercial centre on the Peninsula and, by extension, its principal civilian port.

Although the South Manchuria Railroad terminates at Port Arthur, at no time historically does the railway appear to have been extended onto commercial wharves there, as is the case at Dairen. There are quite a number of photographs available online that show intensive development of the commercial port facilities at Dairen whilst under Japanese control, including mechanised cargo handling facilities the like of which I have never seen in pictures of Port Arthur.

Under Chinese jurisdiction the commercial port at Dalian appears to have been further expanded, and although the ex-Russian carrier Varyag can be seen there tied up along side the building slips, the principal PLAN presence still seems to be further down the coast at Lüshun.

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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 1:01:10 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline 		Hi Local Yokel

I see your point. Somehow, it would be like nowadays, where Lushunkou (now a district of "new Dalian") is the navy base, and "old Dalian" has the commercial port and industrial facility. And so, Dairen/Dalian would be the better name for the hex where those two cities lie. It makes a lot of sense.

It is quite difficult to know what facilities were built in Lushun. The area was a restricted naval base during Japanese occupation, Soviet occupation, and remains so until today. I had a look at chinese websites about the district of Lushunkou (trying to find details about Japanese era building), but all of them have that distinct 'military area' feeling, where you get lots of irrelevant details (like names of streets, and hills, and roads) but very little useful information...

Francois


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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 5:58:41 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
There are actually a number of cavalrymen here ... I am not among them, being an Artilleryman!


I must apologize to all the others of the horsey set. Joel (Blackhorse) and I have been having fun with each other and our respective branches for a couple years now. Sometimes tend to forget there may be some other cavalrymen out there.
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Artillery lends dignity to what is otherwise a vulgar brawl.
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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 6:35:09 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
There are actually a number of cavalrymen here ... I am not among them, being an Artilleryman!


I must apologize to all the others of the horsey set. Joel (Blackhorse) and I have been having fun with each other and our respective branches for a couple years now. Sometimes tend to forget there may be some other cavalrymen out there.
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Artillery lends dignity to what is otherwise a vulgar brawl.
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everyone knows that all the candidants who fall off their horses repeatedly get moved over to Artillery.



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Post #: 11
RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 6:45:53 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
everyone knows that all the candidants who fall off their horses repeatedly get moved over to Artillery.



You are a nasty man Nik. Besides, Artillery is the King of Battles. Why should our caissons roll on a road full of horse poop? That's why God invented Engineers; to clear the road ahead of our triumphant advance.
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Artillery conquers the ground. Infantry occupies it.
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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 6:53:30 PM   
Schanilec

 

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Joined: 6/12/2010
From: Grand Forks, ND
Status: offline 		Artillery lends dignity to what otherwise would be a vulgar brawl.

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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 6:55:41 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Kissing an artillery barrel is not nearly as fun as kissing your horse's muzzle. + you won't possibly burn your lips if the tube was recently fired.



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RE: Wot,no cavalrymen here? - 6/24/2011 7:34:26 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Nik, isn't that in category "Too Much Information"? 

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