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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 12:02:44 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		Well also read part of this AAR. Imo 2 or 3 rules were violated. I mean rules I established for myself - but after only 2 games vs. AI - so maybe these rules are not counting in PBM games??

a) Don´t try 2 major operations at the same time (maybe in 44+45 but not before)
b) You NEED to have Port M. for serious operations in this area (incl. strangling the Rabaul area)
It was said here sometimes in the forums, that PM isn´t that valuable as it has been made. But I disagree PM is one of the MAIN points you need to have. At least as allied. If you can deny PM to the Allied as Jap, fine. But don´t rely to much on PM as a Jap player cause it is to near to the major AUS bases.
c) Use heavy air cover from as much CVs as possible if you plan major ops near bases that have heavy JAP air presence (esp. search assets + Netties). CAP can also deny a portion of the enemy search (AFAIK) - means shooting down search planes.

- My idea would have been to FAINT some operation somewhere - at a believeable place - but instead get a major strike secretly ready to retake PM. If this one is secured you can go in steps to Buna etc. (both places should be maxed out and you need at first masses of fighters there, later 4e bombers to threaten Rabaul). You need at least 2-3 CVs there of course depending on the KB location, if KB is near I would not take the risk to be honest. Not in your situation. However if you can assemble enough CVs together with some landbased air depending on types of planes and pilot quality you should try a decisive carrier battle. Also remember your Australian bases are near, so you can mabye save some heavily damaged ships in that area which the Jap cannot. If he takes the bait he maybe relocates his CVs away from PM area FINE ! If he does not take the bait also FINE, cause you prepared good enough to have a fight you are better prepared for than him....

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/1/2011 12:06:50 PM >

(in reply to ADB123)
Post #: 1201
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 12:55:04 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Looking at the map, I think Rader did a big mistake by trying to launch his air offensive from 8 hexes away. Not only it is extended range for best fighters, Tojos, which severely increases losses, but just in general flying this far is not advisable if you're expecting a heavy fight - much more planes will crash on the way back.

(in reply to ADB123)
Post #: 1202
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 1:14:01 PM   
WLockard


Posts: 183
Joined: 11/13/2005
Status: offline 		You do not get carrier capable F4U-1As until 10/43. The F4U-1 will not operate from CVs.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 1203
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 1:17:03 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Looking at the map, I think Rader did a big mistake by trying to launch his air offensive from 8 hexes away. Not only it is extended range for best fighters, Tojos, which severely increases losses, but just in general flying this far is not advisable if you're expecting a heavy fight - much more planes will crash on the way back.


True and if looking at his losses I coclude the air war in India should be lost by Radar already. If air war is lost, there is no hope to take the rest of India. Guess he´ll pull to a defensive line in not to far future. If I would be him, I would form 2-3 fast striking forces to encircle Allied troops trying to free up India. So beware of some traps there....

(in reply to FatR)
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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 1:37:47 PM   
beppi

 

Posts: 382
Joined: 3/11/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Well also read part of this AAR. Imo 2 or 3 rules were violated. I mean rules I established for myself - but after only 2 games vs. AI - so maybe these rules are not counting in PBM games??

a) Don´t try 2 major operations at the same time (maybe in 44+45 but not before)
b) You NEED to have Port M. for serious operations in this area (incl. strangling the Rabaul area)
It was said here sometimes in the forums, that PM isn´t that valuable as it has been made. But I disagree PM is one of the MAIN points you need to have. At least as allied. If you can deny PM to the Allied as Jap, fine. But don´t rely to much on PM as a Jap player cause it is to near to the major AUS bases.
c) Use heavy air cover from as much CVs as possible if you plan major ops near bases that have heavy JAP air presence (esp. search assets + Netties). CAP can also deny a portion of the enemy search (AFAIK) - means shooting down search planes.

- My idea would have been to FAINT some operation somewhere - at a believeable place - but instead get a major strike secretly ready to retake PM. If this one is secured you can go in steps to Buna etc. (both places should be maxed out and you need at first masses of fighters there, later 4e bombers to threaten Rabaul). You need at least 2-3 CVs there of course depending on the KB location, if KB is near I would not take the risk to be honest. Not in your situation. However if you can assemble enough CVs together with some landbased air depending on types of planes and pilot quality you should try a decisive carrier battle. Also remember your Australian bases are near, so you can mabye save some heavily damaged ships in that area which the Jap cannot. If he takes the bait he maybe relocates his CVs away from PM area FINE ! If he does not take the bait also FINE, cause you prepared good enough to have a fight you are better prepared for than him....


a.) Yes that is true, to break a good defense around Rabaul you need the carriers, all of them + the CVEs. It is a nasty grind down fight. Had the same in my PBEM.

b.) You can grind down Rabaul with solomon bases only. It is true that PM makes it a lot easier as it is a lvl 9 base. But it was no problem to base 1200 fighters, 150 2E and 150 4E on solomon bases only. (But it is harder to to). To finally break and invade you need carriers. But you still can do a slow crawl base per base as close as possible to rabaul with bases and base development only. That should be the goal. It is not an invasion it is just an economic push.

(in reply to Alpha77)
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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 1:48:52 PM   
beppi

 

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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

If i'm not mistaken with my calculations, i should be able to have for the Indian adventure 7 U.S. CVs + CVL Hermes (mid june 43 at Aden), while leaving in the pacific to support the Solomons campaign 4 CVEs (for a grand total of nearly 110 planes)...unfortunately the last brit CV (The Illustrious) will be called back in 60 days so we won't have her (and cannot keep her cause it will cost me 65 PPs per day ).

Will it be enough? Will it be worth this "division of forces" ?... thinking about it....are 7 CVs enough to counter the whole KB?

By mid June i'll probably have 150 of my carrier fighters equipped with Hellcats and more 40/50 with Corsairs...but will it make any real difference?

I mean...i'll have 36x7 fighters aboard my carriers...252...not enough to protect me against the full KB plus the LBAs.... what should i strip? move down some of the avegners groups and put aboard some more USMC fighters?...


4 CVEs in the Solomons will not really help, but they can act as some sort of distraction or guard. To break a rabaul which is a lvl 9 base you need HUGE numbers of fighters. As i said expect around a 1000 or so. You will have the numbers in mid/late 1943 but you will need them there to really act. (And it is possible to have a 1000 or so in india at the same time in mid/late 1943).

To invade around in India you need all your CVs/CVLs with Hellcats. Prior to that do NOT try anything stupid. The Hellcat is comparable to the A6M5 and Wildcats will just have no chance. In your calculations do not forget the CVLs you get. Equip them with Hellcats too and you should be able to have around 400 fighters in the air in India for your invasion. That is still not enough to 100% beat KB but that fleet can fight it.

Two points:
1.) You sure that you fill face KB there ? Chances are good that it will be in the pacific as if you fight a carrier battle close to Karachi with your fighters there the odds are much better for you. I would not risk KB in 1943 to defend in India. Reder will lose India at some time in the future. Use that to your advantage and do not act to fast. Prepare to perfection.

2.) Your naval operations in India have to be quick. You Invade a base somewhere on the Coast, as big as possible with the least defensive troops with as much units as possible. Your invasion convoys should also contain enough xAK/xAP convoys to drop enough supply and support stuff (Engis, Baseforces) and so on to establish a good base. As soon as you can open a connection to Karachi all your troops there will be on the move too and you can ship further stuff/supply just to Karachi. As soon as that invasion is done, move your invasion assets (APA,AKA,LST,LSI + CVs) back to the pacific. You have to fight a land/air war in India and not a fleet war at the end of the world. India is important but capturing it back will not win the war. You need some invsions either in the SRA or go through the central/sw pacific to win the war.
That is the time when you really should start to break the defensive perimter around rabaul from your already developed bases + prepped troops there. If you develop the entire solomons it is only 1 jump to the rabaul area. From there you can eliminate truk and either take the central pacific in one big jump or directly head for the marshalls. That means a minimum of just two jumps to get into B-29 range from the your current positions (with only 1 3 month preperation for your assaulting force as you can prepare you stuff for rabaul prior to the time when your ships are there available again.)

p.s.: A jump is to invade an area not a single base. Usually the preperation takes the most time so i tend to prepare all my avialable asses in an area for multiple bases, the invade the best target and do additional further invasions with already prepped troops in the surrounding bases. As soon as you controll an area you prep all troops in that area for the next one.


< Message edited by beppi -- 7/1/2011 2:17:12 PM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 1:53:04 PM   
GreyJoy


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Status: offline 		Guys...i'm always late with the replies...sorry

However i went back reading the AndyMac - PzB AAR.... Andy got cripples having 360 Hellcats and 150 more different fighters on CAP...october 1943...so is that really possible to obtain a "fair" CV engagement untill mid 44?...

Thx ABD...

(in reply to beppi)
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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 1:55:26 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Looking at the map, I think Rader did a big mistake by trying to launch his air offensive from 8 hexes away. Not only it is extended range for best fighters, Tojos, which severely increases losses, but just in general flying this far is not advisable if you're expecting a heavy fight - much more planes will crash on the way back.


Consider that the first part of his air offensive was launched by Surat...11 hexes from Karachi...

Anyway, Rader IS winning the air war...my pools are empty and now even the spits reserves are over...I cannot sustain 3/400 losses per month...while he can...he's simply winning in the red Army way...numbers and masses...

(in reply to FatR)
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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 2:01:12 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		You are unlikely to face the KB in the Arabian Sea that late in the game. Rader will be very nervous committing them at map's edge, especially if you do your job creating pressure and appearances of pressure at various points in the Pacific.  Note:  "appearances of pressure" is critical.

As for CAP, my experience to this point, and without the latest beta patch installed, is that the best Allied CAP and AA isn't sufficient to stop enemy bombers from hitting my carriers.  Even with 500 Hellcats vs. a clearly overwhelmed enemy strike package, leakers will get through and create mischief.  So, no, seven carriers isn't sufficient against the full KB.  But you don't want to face the full KB.

A previous poster who (I think) acknowledged experience only against the AI, and little enough of that, said one rule of thumb is "only attempt one operation at a time."  His heart is in the right place, and what he means to say is "don't bite off more than you can chew," which is always a good rule, but his rule is incorrect.  Actually, an Allied player wants to implement as many operations in tandem or planned sequence as possible.  If you can organize five major operations, all the better.  Early in the game, and after tough losses, the Allied player often has a hard time coming up with the "stuff" to mount multiple missions, but if you can, then do.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 2:12:12 PM   
beppi

 

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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Guys...i'm always late with the replies...sorry

However i went back reading the AndyMac - PzB AAR.... Andy got cripples having 360 Hellcats and 150 more different fighters on CAP...october 1943...so is that really possible to obtain a "fair" CV engagement untill mid 44?...

Thx ABD...


In Andys/PZB AAR ss far as i remember the first clash was prior to the Hellcat. Without the Hellcat just forget any battle. And in second big battle PzB did some very good moves AND he had a lot of luck. To catch a fleet with 8 Hex advantage needs a lot of luck. Do not fight KB prior to the Hellcat and after that you still have to be careful and you might take losses until mid of 1944. But even some carrier losses for the allies are not the end of the world. After mid of 1944 you can mass that many planes that you still might take some losses but usally then you can reliable defeat KB.

< Message edited by beppi -- 7/1/2011 2:18:37 PM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 2:19:31 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WLockard

You do not get carrier capable F4U-1As until 10/43. The F4U-1 will not operate from CVs.


Ok, that's a usefull info WLockard! Thanks

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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 2:25:04 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

b.) You can grind down Rabaul with solomon bases only. It is true that PM makes it a lot easier as it is a lvl 9 base. But it was no problem to base 1200 fighters, 150 2E and 150 4E on solomon bases only. (But it is harder to to). To finally break and invade you need carriers. But you still can do a slow crawl base per base as close as possible to rabaul with bases and base development only. That should be the goal. It is not an invasion it is just an economic push.


Yeah, guess you can do it, depending on timeframe and forces. It would also isolate a PM in Jap hands, and probably fall later.

Ah and you CAN fight KB with 7 carriers of course. But you should prepare that you´ll lose quite much also. Like someone said above some planes will mostly "leak"through the CAP and if these are torp bombers even a few might be deadly. This is why you need to bring YOUR bombers to enemy don´t rely to much on protective CAp.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/1/2011 2:37:55 PM >

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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 2:50:33 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		Alpha77, CR, Beppi and to all the others who are discussing these last points:

First of all, as always, thanks for sharing knowledge, infos and perceptions.

Secondly:

1. Rader's naval assets are completely intact (except for a couple of CLs).
2. By mid june 43 i will only have 1 new CV (the Essex, my 7° US CV), while no CVLs were available yet.
3. We'll get 3 only CVEs+ the Long Island by mid june 43
4. I do think he'll be willing to fight with the KB for India. He will have his crack weapon at hands, in complteley friendly waters (Karachi by then will be sieged and with no more air force protecting it) and with TONS of level 9 AF bases from where to base his 1000 bombers and 1000 LBA fighters (Hyderabad, Surat, Bawhatever -north of Surat-, Jodpur, Bombay, Poona etc etc).
5. I won't have many choices to counterinvade. The shortest route from the Aden wormhole will be Surat (11 hexes south of Karachi). Means the trip of an invasion force will take, at least, 4 days to begin to land from when we exit from the Wormhole.
6. The KB could easily wait for me at Bombay, under a safe CAP umbrella, and decide when and how to engage.

For what concerns the pacific...i know 2 operations at the same time are difficult to accomplish and the risk is to have two disasters (instead of one single) or, at best, two non decisive moves. But he cannot, i'm pretty sure, have 2000 planes in India, the whole KB and, at the same time, 1000 crack planes in SOPAC...but even with 1000 crack planes in Sopac, if he really wants to defend India from a counterinvasion, he won't have enough assets to stop me getting closer and closer to Rabaul.
I don't wanna invade Rabaul. I want to get around it and apply as much pressure as i could.
Now the KB has striked at Lunga. Well, we'll keep on fortifying and be ready to advance. I don't believe he has any decent fighting LCUs to throw at me, so as soon as i get a strong foothold somewhere, he won't push me back. I could take some losses in terms of ships and planes...but my LCUs in that part of the world are overwhelming his own.

Now we've seen that he was able to mass 150/200 fighters at Rabaul. We know he has a couple of Nells Sentais in the Marshalls and for sure some training Kates and Vals daitais somewhere in the pacific...

...ok, writing the above lines i'm feeling less and less convinced about the strategic foundamentals over which this whole plan is being thought... What if Alpha77 was correct? What if Rader won't advance anymore and will limit himself in taking and developing Multan (which is a very good defensive spot for the Japs) and keep on reducing Karachi air power (but with the goal of delaying my coming back) and at the same time using the next 7 months to reposition his whole Army all around the map...????

....need to calm down...i'm getting anxious with the idea of moving away all those assets....i'll feel naked in the pacific...

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 3:07:40 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		If rader does that and then just waits for your eventual counteroffensive then he is insane.  Since he's not insane, he won't do that.

He either needs to back off gradually starting soon or he needs to plop his army atop yours at Karachi, then pin it in place with perhaps 5,000 AV while seeing to the evactuation of most of the rest of his troops and preparing to go on the defensive.  (But if he does that, he's going to lost alot of that 5,000 AV when he finally has to retreat,  as you'll be able to follow and strike and destroy much of that army).

If you let yourself, you'll talk yourself out of every operation.  Don't let your fears get the best of you.  Use reasonable caution, devise and implement good plans, and then resolutely proceed.

India is your best battleground.  Not because rader poses a threat to you now, but because you can sink your teeth into the greatest number, and eventually the most vulnerable, mass of Japanese forces there.  So your first priority needs to be India.  And you have to choose a beachhead that you can successfully invade.  Don't take chances on invasion of a heavily defended base, even if it's one that you want or can best use.  Search around, find one that is reasonably feasible, and then figure out how to take it and how to exploit out of it quickly and effectively.  If that means you have to move down the coast to Goa, Mangaore, or even Calicut, so be it.  Better there than getting thwarted at Surat (though Surat is your best choice if rader leaves it unprotected).

You need to have one or two follow up operations far away - invasions that are likely to suceed in the vacuum if rader commits the KB to the Arabian Sea again. 

You also need to establish some maskirovkas.  For instance, buildng up ships and troops and airfields to threaten the Kuriles or New Guinea or Oz or Timor.  Anywhere that you can credibly create the perception that you intend to strike, and can feed that perception by parking important (but spare) capital ships and transports there.  By basing planes there.  By having subs and recon operating from there.  By building bases.  That takes thought and time, so you have to get started now.

The Solomons can be one such maskirvoka.  You've already got his full attention.  Halt any further major offensive plans since he's obviously aware and aroused.  Moving into the teeth of a gale doesn't make sense.  But having tons of activity at your present bases will feed his perceptions.  And you can nibble off some nearby, low risk dot hexes and begin building those too.  Such a great buildup will continue to draw his attention and forces.

Meanwhile, you'll be preparing to hit India plus smaller raids on Wake or the Gilberts or whatever.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1214
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 4:24:02 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		Well add some more thoughts and then I´ll be silent and watch how it goes (cause I need to play my own game also sometime):

If I would be Jap in this game, I would be content with what I have reached in India till now. As GJ reported he has a very strong position at Karachi. Even IF the Jap comes with massive force it will take a long while untill this fortress will fall. All the while the JAP assets are deployed in this theater (which I consider not so important anymore.....it will become important again for the Jap IF the Allied goes to the offensive in India!) JAP has a lack of assets in other theaters now. His only trump card is the KB (mobile power protection), imo the main target would be to reduce the KB (even if India may fall!). This can only be accomplished by coordinated massive effort. Beginning - mid of 43 there should be a chance to do it, GJ still has his carriers intact. The main goal is to lure the KB to some place where also LBA can be thrown in the fray together with carrier. India is not the right place to do this cause atm. GJ has only the one major base left there, which also need to be defended vs. JAP LBA ! This means the air in India cannot help much to battle the KB - as they also face JAP landbased air (=LBA).


In short I would let the Allied rot at Karachi and try to contain them as long as possible. And use some of my assets in India elsewhere.


< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/1/2011 4:25:43 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1215
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 4:57:47 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
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Status: offline 		Aleutians - Since it is Nov 42, you face winter ground combat effects. Anything you want to do up here will have to wait until March 43. You can start moving assets up there now to move forward after winter is over. Like Canoerebel, Dan, has done this area can be a very strong area to operate from, but may be nothing more than a secondary front.

Central Pacific - A move into this area needs to be quick as KB is now at Truk and can react in very short amount of time. Any invasion here has to allow a quick build up of bases to allow land base air to carry the war on. The question here will be getting follow up forces (troops, planes, and supplies) in with minimal losses. This area is more a tactical filed of battle vs a strategic one, IMO.

South Pacific and Solomons - You are already here and can use this for steady attrition of his forces. I would keep the pressure on here, but not make it your main focus. Like the Central Pacific, it is of tactical significance only.

NE Australia and New Guinea - I would be building up Cooktown and then Portland Roads to be able to suppress Port Moresby. Again, I would rely on being able to do as much as I could with land base air power due to the number of warships you have lost to this point. Before I invaded PM, I would probably have an invasion take place in the Gilbert to draw KB away and just have to deal with his Nell/Betty from Rabaul (I hope). This area would tighten the noose around Rabaul and then allow you to slide up the southern side of New Guinea towards the SRA.

Northern Australia - I would be focusing here, as he has to respond. You can use the massive numbers of transport planes to supply any armor thrust up the middle like Andy Mac did and and make short hooks around the coast to take bases. Since I haven't read anything in your AAR about this area, I would need more info on what is there on both sides. Your 4e bombers should be able to close down multiple bases. This would give you a third axis to advance from (India and Solomons).

India - You will need to hold Karachi at all cost, but trying to counter invade that close to that amount of force involves too much risk unless he is forced to send troops and planes somewhere else before it happens. This may happen later, but moving out from Australia may allow this to happen later.

In summary, I would be attacking out of Australia in the near future (6 month or so) and keep him tied down to India to allow you freedom to hit him somewhere else.

Comments from GJ and others.......

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 7/1/2011 4:58:02 PM >

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RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 5:11:59 PM   
String


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Status: offline 		Did he even lose northern australia?

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Post #: 1217
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 5:22:19 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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Status: offline 		I find the hellcat to be an overall great fighter for 1943. It eats up tojos, tonys, and jacks and is slightly better than the george. And, there is no type of Japanese carrier fighter that can come close to it. If Rader collects his wits and gives up the sacrifice of his air force you will need every one of them in 1943. With PUD on and a Japanese player on top of production you will just not have enough army fighters. I found myself frequently putting carrier based airgroups ashore as fire brigades where they did an excellent job. And the hellcat is the one fighter produced (1943) in numbers enough to replace large losses.

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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 1218
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 5:34:21 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		Hi all, as always you feed my brain with lots of good thoughts! Thx!

First of all i'll try to analyze the different strategical theatres:

NOPAC: we've built up everything till Addak Island. Attu is still japanese but it's just an empty rock. Intel says he has strongly garrisoned Paramushiro and all the other bases in the area.

Northern Oz: at the beginning of the war he has landed everywhere from Cooktown to Exmouth but then he left...and in the next 3 months i took all my bases back, altought i haven't built them up. Cairns is being built up to its max, while for Cooktown everything started few weeks ago.
Darwin is still mine but with zero supplies everything north of Alice Spring is abbandoned and at the moment just a waste land.
In the west Exmouth is still a dot-base...so i'll need to move strong assets if i want to build these areas... Consider that Every single base in the Banda Sea and at Timor is built to its max. At Timor there's the 15th Army along with the 15th Air Division HQ...pretty sure he has well garrisoned this area.

Anyway...now it's time to decide.... leaving my office right now...tonight i'll elaborate more.... you see however how it's easy to change your mind...and how it's difficult to chose a pattern and follow it... the options are many...and every strategical option, if seen under different POVs, has its rotten details that may flaw the entire operation...

Alpha77's, CR's, Beppi's, NY59Giant's, BW's, Nemo's...and all others' POVs are all good...but they are, most of them at least, alternative to each other... Committ in India, don't committ in India, open more fronts, concentrate on one single massive blow, bring the hammer, create deception.... cannot do everything at once...i have to chose...

...However...you know...this is what makes this game a UNIQUE gem in the gaming experience orizont...never, i say never felt like that for a game

See u later guys

And thanks again for all your efforts! You're (and you are a predominant part along with the game itself) are really making me live a great time!

(in reply to String)
Post #: 1219
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 7:21:01 PM   
ADB123

 

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quote:

3. We'll get 3 only CVEs+ the Long Island by mid june 43


You CAN'T fly combat missions off of the "Lost Island". You can only transport planes with it. One of my Allied opponents tried to use Long Island to provide CAP during an invasion and he was very surprised and disappointed to find out that his fighters just sat on the ship while I was sinking it.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1220
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 8:17:19 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

quote:

3. We'll get 3 only CVEs+ the Long Island by mid june 43


You CAN'T fly combat missions off of the "Lost Island". You can only transport planes with it. One of my Allied opponents tried to use Long Island to provide CAP during an invasion and he was very surprised and disappointed to find out that his fighters just sat on the ship while I was sinking it.


This isn't correct. You can fly combat missions from Long Island. I've used it for CAP and I recall that Q-Ball used it for CAP in his game vs. Cuttlefish. I also think you can fly SBDs from it (and presumably torpedo bombers too) as long as you don't exceed the limit of aircraft.

(in reply to ADB123)
Post #: 1221
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 8:30:28 PM   
SoliInvictus202


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

quote:

3. We'll get 3 only CVEs+ the Long Island by mid june 43


You CAN'T fly combat missions off of the "Lost Island". You can only transport planes with it. One of my Allied opponents tried to use Long Island to provide CAP during an invasion and he was very surprised and disappointed to find out that his fighters just sat on the ship while I was sinking it.


This isn't correct. You can fly combat missions from Long Island. I've used it for CAP and I recall that Q-Ball used it for CAP in his game vs. Cuttlefish. I also think you can fly SBDs from it (and presumably torpedo bombers too) as long as you don't exceed the limit of aircraft.


exactly - no problem here either - you just have to find a group that fits...

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1222
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 8:41:31 PM   
ADB123

 

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

quote:

3. We'll get 3 only CVEs+ the Long Island by mid june 43


You CAN'T fly combat missions off of the "Lost Island". You can only transport planes with it. One of my Allied opponents tried to use Long Island to provide CAP during an invasion and he was very surprised and disappointed to find out that his fighters just sat on the ship while I was sinking it.


This isn't correct. You can fly combat missions from Long Island. I've used it for CAP and I recall that Q-Ball used it for CAP in his game vs. Cuttlefish. I also think you can fly SBDs from it (and presumably torpedo bombers too) as long as you don't exceed the limit of aircraft.


exactly - no problem here either - you just have to find a group that fits...


Okay, that's news to me. Whenever I've transferred combat air groups to CVs where Long Island is in range LI always shows up as being unable to accept the planes.

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 1223
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 8:47:44 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Long Island has a limit of 16, which you can exceed a bit, but if you try to send a 27- or 36-aircraft squadron to her it will be "red out" as you'd be exceeding the space limit by too much.

(Sorry for the hijack here).

_____________________________

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(in reply to ADB123)
Post #: 1224
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 9:16:38 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Maybe the confusion is that you can put single-engine non-carrier capable aircraft onto carriers, but they can't fly combat missions. They can only fly off to a land base (transfer).

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1225
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/1/2011 10:45:06 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

quote:

3. We'll get 3 only CVEs+ the Long Island by mid june 43


You CAN'T fly combat missions off of the "Lost Island". You can only transport planes with it. One of my Allied opponents tried to use Long Island to provide CAP during an invasion and he was very surprised and disappointed to find out that his fighters just sat on the ship while I was sinking it.



Yep, I second that. I used it for a squadron of dauntless DB for asw and scouting. Until it ate a few torpedoes that is.

_____________________________

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(in reply to ADB123)
Post #: 1226
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/2/2011 12:12:37 AM   
Mistmatz

 

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline 		If you are sure you can hold Karachi until he begins to withdraw from India (which he has to at some point in time) I would consider only taking Ceylon and threaten his retreat. This might lure KB into the Indian Ocean and give you more operational freedom in the Pacific.

You will never get ahead of time reconquering India and Burma, this is only a mop up theater. In the Pacific though you can try to strike earlier and deeper if India is becoming a liability to the empire.

_____________________________

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http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/War_in_the_Pacific:_Admiral%27s_Edition_Wiki


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 1227
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/2/2011 1:34:35 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Aleutians - Since it is Nov 42, you face winter ground combat effects. Anything you want to do up here will have to wait until March 43. You can start moving assets up there now to move forward after winter is over. Like Canoerebel, Dan, has done this area can be a very strong area to operate from, but may be nothing more than a secondary front.


Central Pacific - A move into this area needs to be quick as KB is now at Truk and can react in very short amount of time. Any invasion here has to allow a quick build up of bases to allow land base air to carry the war on. The question here will be getting follow up forces (troops, planes, and supplies) in with minimal losses. This area is more a tactical filed of battle vs a strategic one, IMO.

South Pacific and Solomons - You are already here and can use this for steady attrition of his forces. I would keep the pressure on here, but not make it your main focus. Like the Central Pacific, it is of tactical significance only.

NE Australia and New Guinea - I would be building up Cooktown and then Portland Roads to be able to suppress Port Moresby. Again, I would rely on being able to do as much as I could with land base air power due to the number of warships you have lost to this point. Before I invaded PM, I would probably have an invasion take place in the Gilbert to draw KB away and just have to deal with his Nell/Betty from Rabaul (I hope). This area would tighten the noose around Rabaul and then allow you to slide up the southern side of New Guinea towards the SRA.

Northern Australia - I would be focusing here, as he has to respond. You can use the massive numbers of transport planes to supply any armor thrust up the middle like Andy Mac did and and make short hooks around the coast to take bases. Since I haven't read anything in your AAR about this area, I would need more info on what is there on both sides. Your 4e bombers should be able to close down multiple bases. This would give you a third axis to advance from (India and Solomons).

India - You will need to hold Karachi at all cost, but trying to counter invade that close to that amount of force involves too much risk unless he is forced to send troops and planes somewhere else before it happens. This may happen later, but moving out from Australia may allow this to happen later.

In summary, I would be attacking out of Australia in the near future (6 month or so) and keep him tied down to India to allow you freedom to hit him somewhere else.

Comments from GJ and others.......


Tomorrow i'll reply in detail cause i do like the clean "order" of this kind of analysis (order that i always seem to translate into chaos )

For the moment we've done another turn...God, almost falling asleep...it's very late here...

Nov 8, 9 1942

Another "usual turn" at Karachi. 300 sweeps (200 Tojos and 100 A6M2s and Oscars).
Seems that he's using again the A6M2s...which may mean he has run short of the "3" model...after the horrible losses he has suffered i think... the "air2air" was again a 2-1 in my favour (30 against 60) but the considering op losses we got a 1,5-1... so again...too harsh to sustain.
My Pilots are reaching really some incredible skills...with almost every single spit pilot above 20kils and all of them eligible for the TRACOM.

we bombed Multan again and the base should be not operative for another couple of days. he's not moving yet from there, cause he's concentrating in reducing Ralpawindi now (some 20 units moving there).

He sent again 9 DDs leaded by 1 CL...we had a force of 5 DDs, with the best captains and the best british leader i could find...they didn't achieve surprise but they crossed the T at 2000 yards....my british DDs never seem to have any will to use their torps...result? one of mine on the bottom, while the whole enemy fleet run away without a scratch...only after sinking 2 AKs full of supplies.

The morning after the enemy fleet was far away (8hexes south)...then it happened that the combat replay tells me that my beauforts didn't find any target or aborted while the combat report shows that we had bombed with heavy damage a jap CL...cannot know which is the good report to look at but i like to think we got something in return of the last DD gone in defence of Karachi...

We heard also the sound of a mine...we've mined Colombo and Palembang...hopefully something got hit

In the pacific the KB moved back to Truk, while his subs are keeping a strong ring of fire around the Solomons...nothing can get in or get out...at least 25 of them are there and my Air ASW doesn't seem to do anything better than my naval search ...i'll have to wait before doing anything here...don't have enough ASW ships to cover any convoy to resupply Lunga for the moment and i don't wanna throw away my transports that are harmless against his super subs

The first convoy with tanks have left PH...direction SF...then by rail to EC and then UK....

I'm also moving engineers to Perth so that i can start to build NW OZ...while for northern Oz i still have to understand how it can be done without a secure naval sea lane...

...ok guys...really falling asleep...tomorrow i'll have plenty of time to discuss everything...

sorry and thanks again

nite

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 1228
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/2/2011 8:55:03 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If rader does that and then just waits for your eventual counteroffensive then he is insane.  Since he's not insane, he won't do that.

He either needs to back off gradually starting soon or he needs to plop his army atop yours at Karachi, then pin it in place with perhaps 5,000 AV while seeing to the evactuation of most of the rest of his troops and preparing to go on the defensive.  (But if he does that, he's going to lost alot of that 5,000 AV when he finally has to retreat,  as you'll be able to follow and strike and destroy much of that army).

If you let yourself, you'll talk yourself out of every operation.  Don't let your fears get the best of you.  Use reasonable caution, devise and implement good plans, and then resolutely proceed.

India is your best battleground.  Not because rader poses a threat to you now, but because you can sink your teeth into the greatest number, and eventually the most vulnerable, mass of Japanese forces there.  So your first priority needs to be India.  And you have to choose a beachhead that you can successfully invade.  Don't take chances on invasion of a heavily defended base, even if it's one that you want or can best use.  Search around, find one that is reasonably feasible, and then figure out how to take it and how to exploit out of it quickly and effectively.  If that means you have to move down the coast to Goa, Mangaore, or even Calicut, so be it.  Better there than getting thwarted at Surat (though Surat is your best choice if rader leaves it unprotected).

You need to have one or two follow up operations far away - invasions that are likely to suceed in the vacuum if rader commits the KB to the Arabian Sea again. 

You also need to establish some maskirovkas.  For instance, buildng up ships and troops and airfields to threaten the Kuriles or New Guinea or Oz or Timor.  Anywhere that you can credibly create the perception that you intend to strike, and can feed that perception by parking important (but spare) capital ships and transports there.  By basing planes there.  By having subs and recon operating from there.  By building bases.  That takes thought and time, so you have to get started now.

The Solomons can be one such maskirvoka.  You've already got his full attention.  Halt any further major offensive plans since he's obviously aware and aroused.  Moving into the teeth of a gale doesn't make sense.  But having tons of activity at your present bases will feed his perceptions.  And you can nibble off some nearby, low risk dot hexes and begin building those too.  Such a great buildup will continue to draw his attention and forces.

Meanwhile, you'll be preparing to hit India plus smaller raids on Wake or the Gilberts or whatever.



Yes, these feints (maskirvoka) are exactly what i need.

The problem is to be "credible".
I'll so start with building NW Oz , as NY59G has said, starting from Exmouth. He'll noticie it because exmouth is still a "red" dot base.

At the same time we'll build up Portland Roads and Cooktown in NE Oz and we'll keep to build up our Solomons perimeter reinforcing it.

I'm also considering conquering with a couple of Infantry companies one of the Ellice Islands (North of Pago pago) and place there an AVD in order to operate a group of Cats so to give him the constant feeling that his perimeter is getting smaller everywhere.

And, in the meanwhile, i'll prepare for the "Big Jump". I still consider Surat or Bedawathever the best two places to land in India. Both have a level 9 AF and they are clean terrain, plus the relative proximity to the wormhole makes them the "safest" place to land. Going much southwards will mean expose my whole fleet to a longer threat of his Netties and give more time for his KB to eventually come in and squander my plans. So surprise and a fast pace are crucial for this operation.
And even if Surat is decently defended...well, with all his eggs at Karachi trying to reduce my 9500 AVs (yup, we got 500 more AVs due to upgrading and replacements), i don't think there will be much to counter a 4000 AVs allied counter invasion...plus i'll have LOTS of tanks that could operate in the "clean terrain" of Surat...

The main problem remains the CVs which are not strong enough to hope to defend against the whole KB equipped with A6M5s.
After reading PzB-Andy Mac AAR and what happened to Castor roy and Freeboy against Zeta, i do come to the conclusion that my best best won't be to place a huge number of fighters on CAP...they'll got through anyway!...i have to considerate my CVs as lost...but i need to use them in order to harm HIS own CVs and if CAP is not waterproof for the allies, same goes for the Japs...My CVs will be called to sacrifice themself, giving the landing fleet enough time to deliver the package (land the invasion army at surat) looking for a decisive engagement with the KB with the only and clear intent to damage or sink some of his priceless Carriers and so forcing him to focus on my CVs, rather than on my landing fleet. If i manage to conquer Surat and land my 4000 AVs there...well i think he'll have a hell of a time to retreat from Karachi in good order

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1229
RE: Bloody hairy - 7/2/2011 9:21:30 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Aleutians - Since it is Nov 42, you face winter ground combat effects. Anything you want to do up here will have to wait until March 43. You can start moving assets up there now to move forward after winter is over. Like Canoerebel, Dan, has done this area can be a very strong area to operate from, but may be nothing more than a secondary front.



Well, i think i can advance till Attu Island without any risk and start building the bases around it. This should contribute to make him feel some pressure even in the deep north and, at the same time, prepare a good starting base for any possible operations for 1943.

quote:


Central Pacific - A move into this area needs to be quick as KB is now at Truk and can react in very short amount of time. Any invasion here has to allow a quick build up of bases to allow land base air to carry the war on. The question here will be getting follow up forces (troops, planes, and supplies) in with minimal losses. This area is more a tactical filed of battle vs a strategic one, IMO.


I do think we have to change the tactic here. I can no longer allow myself to go overconfident. Need to move as the KB was always ready to smash me. So smaller vassels, feewer troops, maybe a less fast advance but with less risks.
For the moment we'll limit ourself in some small background operations. We'll base some engineers at Rannell Island and the steward Islands...in order to fortify my perimeter and follow the Beppi's suggestions.
Considering that my big xAPs and xAKs will be used to move my indian counter invasion army to the UK, we'll use in this area mainly xAKLs and the small xAPs (those with 4000 endurance)...so eventually their lost won't be a tragedy.


quote:



South Pacific and Solomons - You are already here and can use this for steady attrition of his forces. I would keep the pressure on here, but not make it your main focus. Like the Central Pacific, it is of tactical significance only.


Ops, i inverted the theatres...however in CentPac i still have the Tarawa invasion plan to be completed...my little invasion force is still ready at Christmas Island, waiting for the right moment to get to Tarawa unseen and possibly with the KB confirmed somehwere else...Tarawa for the moment will be the only real target (it should still be almost undefended and not built up). But i'm not in hurry anymore for this...i can wait...think i'll let things slow down a bit here...so that when i'll arrive i'll achieve a total surprise.

quote:



NE Australia and New Guinea - I would be building up Cooktown and then Portland Roads to be able to suppress Port Moresby. Again, I would rely on being able to do as much as I could with land base air power due to the number of warships you have lost to this point. Before I invaded PM, I would probably have an invasion take place in the Gilbert to draw KB away and just have to deal with his Nell/Betty from Rabaul (I hope). This area would tighten the noose around Rabaul and then allow you to slide up the southern side of New Guinea towards the SRA..


Yup, totally agree. Building up CookTown right now and Portland Roads as soon as i manage to get some seebees to Oz (matters of days now)


quote:



Northern Australia - I would be focusing here, as he has to respond. You can use the massive numbers of transport planes to supply any armor thrust up the middle like Andy Mac did and and make short hooks around the coast to take bases. Since I haven't read anything in your AAR about this area, I would need more info on what is there on both sides. Your 4e bombers should be able to close down multiple bases. This would give you a third axis to advance from (India and Solomons)...


I'll post a screenshot right away.... however the situation is more or less the same of 12.07.1941...except that i evacuated all the fighting units from Darwin back to Alice Spring when, in Jan, it seemed that Rader wanted to invade Oz...then i didn't redeploy cause i could not send any supplies there and i would have left my men there to rot.
Now i'll try to get to Darwin slowly, by building up the NW of Oz, starting from Exmouth...already moving ships and engineers to Perth. it will be slow but i agree that my presence there cannot be ignored by Rader.

quote:



India - You will need to hold Karachi at all cost, but trying to counter invade that close to that amount of force involves too much risk unless he is forced to send troops and planes somewhere else before it happens. This may happen later, but moving out from Australia may allow this to happen later. ...


I think i can hold Karachi at least till june 1943. I think he'll need at least one year to reduce a base with 9500 AVs and 9 forts.
At the same time i agree that i need to draw some of his assets somewhere (Timor or Rabaul) in order to reduce the risks of a counterinvasion...but i do see now that a counterinvasion is a MUST. If i don't counterinvade in the long run there's not way Karachi can free itself alone...the city needs an aid from the outside and the more i wait the less supplies will be left there...i cannot risk of losing the entire theatre...have to try to save it.


Thanks!




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