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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 4:41:52 PM   
Ketza


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quote:

ORIGINAL: arras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

HQ build-up was and exploit and Russian players cried a river. It had nothing to do with Russains players using different tactics.

Same goes for the air exploit and the 1v1 = 2v1 attacks for Russians on the ground, a change of tactics is not an answer. A change in the rules is.

Its generally the rule: What works in closed beta never works when a game goes public.

Pelton

I will immediately drop my case as soon as you show me which rule exception or "special" ability causes so called "air exploit".

So far I do not know one. Same mechanics apply for Axis and Soviet side. Soviets do not get magical bonus on airbase attack, do they?

Then somebody should explain me, why concentrated effort of Soviet player to bomb axis airfields, especially fighter airfields should have no effect on ability of Axis player to wage air war. Because to me it seems perfectly valid and logical.

What would be logical for axis players to do in this case seems to me to ask developers logical question, why they can not adjust their production to match their strategy and that of their opponent?


I think the fact that this type of mechanic benefits the side with the most airframes makes it appear "unfair".

As the Axis you have to realize at some point you are not going to have air superiority everywhere and have to develop tactics to try and stop this type of attrition or at least make it painfull. You also have to choose where you are going to fight and concentrate. Things I have found that help:

1) Someone mentioned this but base your Luftwaffe as far as practical from the front so the bi planes cannot even reach you.

2) Stack your airbases and utilize flak and HQS as well as keep bases clusters close together.

3) Set fighter intercept very high.

4) Make sure as much stuff "flies" as possible set your minimum to 5 or 10%.

5) Rotate out beat up units with a lot of damaged planes.

6) RECON RECON RECON Attack Soviet bases as often as practical when you see build ups of bombers.

7) Use your satellite airforces to aggresively early to help whittle down Soviet airframes as well as build their own experience.


Now one thing that would be helpful for both sides would be a "cap X airbase" command to guarantee a certain amount of cap over the airfields instead of fighters being soaked up in other missions and not protecting their homes.

< Message edited by Ketza -- 6/29/2011 4:42:49 PM >

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Post #: 31
RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 4:57:52 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

If the Russians don't pack their air bases, as the SAD bases are disbanded, they will ultimately be unable to deploy their airforce.

Here's a screenie from T49, the last turn I recorded playing axis in pbem-


There is no need for the Soviets to deploy their entire air force at the front at all times. They could do so, but there are times when it might not be wise.

Looking at those Soviet losses, the initial pool (6582 aircraft)+production up to that point covers around 20.000-21.000 of those losses.

Considering the losses the Soviets take through training accidents, the average amount of aircraft lost per turn due to air base displacements, air base bombing and regular air combat is only about 200-250 per turn, which is not particularly high, and it's only about 100-150 on average for turn 2 to 49 when we remove the likely first turn losses.

Also keep in mind that you're losing some of the best pilots and aircraft you'll get, but you're destroying rubbish to mediocre aircraft with mediocre pilots.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 6/29/2011 5:09:32 PM >

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 6:12:30 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

If the Russians don't pack their air bases, as the SAD bases are disbanded, they will ultimately be unable to deploy their airforce.

Here's a screenie from T49, the last turn I recorded playing axis in pbem-


There is no need for the Soviets to deploy their entire air force at the front at all times. They could do so, but there are times when it might not be wise.


Indeed, it could get bombed to pieces. If not deployed, the Axis maintain air superiority. Axis result.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP Looking at those Soviet losses, the initial pool (6582 aircraft)+production up to that point covers around 20.000-21.000 of those losses.

Considering the losses the Soviets take through training accidents, the average amount of aircraft lost per turn due to air base displacements, air base bombing and regular air combat is only about 200-250 per turn, which is not particularly high, and it's only about 100-150 on average for turn 2 to 49 when we remove the likely first turn losses.


After T7 there wasn't much left to bomb as I recall, and the losses I could inflict did decline. Also AA seemed to get heavier so I became more choosey about targets. In the meantime, the Axis had complete air superiority. Axis result.

If the Russian training losses in the exampled game are anything like my training losses playing Russian (70-90 per turn) the average roughly 410 planes lost per turn in the exampled game would leave about 320 lost through bombing and other combat. Wasn't that within your success threshold? I suspect the Russians in this game lost more in training for the reason below, but in any case, I don't care particularly how the Russians lose them, as long as they're lost.

Doesn't the amount of planes lost in training (and combat) relate to the experience of the air units? Bombing Russian air units has the colateral of weakening them in combat and, I assume that low experience contributes to high training and combat losses.

High losses in various situations become a function of airfield bombing and other combat which reduces the Russian air units' experience. Axis result!

Whatever, though by the end of the exampled game the Russian units were kitted out with new fighters, they got slaughtered whenever they sortied so I assume they were very low in experience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradePAlso keep in mind that you're losing some of the best pilots and aircraft you'll get, but you're destroying rubbish to mediocre aircraft with mediocre pilots.


I see your really a glass half empty guy. My pilots were gaining an enormous amount of experience and high morale because enough survived their many missions. At the same time, Russian units that might have been gaining experience and morale were instead being bombed back to the stone age. The only Axis exception were the tactical bombers which I didn't use to bomb airfields anyway. These I frequently recycled to reserve.

As for the fleets of IL-4s, DB-3Bs, Pe-2s etc etc, they ain't rubbish at all when handled well. Even the MiG-3s and Yak 1s do a good job when handled well, and if T-16s get the fortune to intercept unescorted Axis bombers... they all do a job in the right situation though the Russian has to accept heavy losses.


My Russian opponent in the exampled game did not explore the possibilities for his air force. Though I'd assumed the counter-measures put forward by Ketza, I never had to employ them. In my current Russian game, by summer 42, my German opponent with his depleted Luftwaffe, has just recently woken up to counter-bombing my airfields so I'm for the first time on the receiving end of my own tactics. He has concentrated in 2 sectors and more or less driven the VVS out of one.

Many people have pronounced on the air war issue without exploring possibilities offered by the game or adapting tactics to changed situations. Premature conclusions are generally mistaken.



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Post #: 33
RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 7:56:26 PM   
WarHunter


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Status: offline 		Let me see if what I'm reading is being interrupted correctly. Version 1.03 up to the latest 1.04beta.

The axis player needs to bomb Red Air force bases to win the air war.

The soviet player needs to bomb axis airbases to win the air war.

Interdiction is the best ground attack method.

Air to Ground Attack helps soften up a target, but is hard to decipher how much good it does.

City bombing has changed alot between 1.03 and current beta.

The axis player has no way to help his allies with aircraft upgrades.

Anything to add?

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 8:08:37 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

The axis player has no way to help his allies with aircraft upgrades.



Well, in reality Germany did provide lots of airframes to its allies.

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Post #: 35
RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 8:15:06 PM   
WarHunter


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Status: offline 		As far as the game is concerned.
The player has no way to increase or decrease airframes to Finland, Hungary, Italy or Rumania. It is all up to the AI. 

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Post #: 36
RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 8:18:40 PM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		The rate of training losses, in the latest patch, are supposed to be higher than before. 

Other than missing that I believe you have 'interrupted' correctly.

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 8:18:50 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

The problem here is that the Germans fighters up to 1943 were able to knock down Soviet planes at will WHEN they were available. These Soviet attacks on airfields, while occasionally successful, should be taking horrendous losses if they are being intercepted by German fighters. The main problem I see in the game which I have expressed in detail in the tester forum is that neither player can mass his air forces like they can with the ground forces at decisive points on the battlefield. The result is that the air power potential is diluted by the AI choosing what air battles to get involved in. There is a whole new game that could be played with an overhaul in the air model. The interesting thing about the air battles that is completely not reflected here is that the German air supremacy could not be everywhere and the Soviets could and did gain local air supremacy from the near beginning of Barbarossa. The Soviet Air Force in 1941, even with its horrendous losses, played a decisive role in delaying some German advances and almost all of the local counterattacks. Air supremacy on both sides played a vital role in the morale of the ground troops throughout the campaign and really every campaign and operation since WW2. It would be a huge undertaking to get it right but it would add a very decisive element to the game.

Trey

Fighters have a limited ammo stowage. The most effective rounds available to most German fighters of 41-42, 20mm cannon, were carried in very limited quantities in single engine fighters. This caps the number of kills even the greatest plane and pilot can make per sortie. I'm not sure how many constitutes 'horrendous' but if they were found not to be, I would suggest either or all of

- providing a fighter scramble bonus from a targetted airfield
- enabling interception of a raid along its entire course, out and inward bound
- enabling interceptors to prioritise bombers as targets
- enabling pilot survival from destroyed planes and decreaing the survival rate for sorties over enemy territory.

That said, the ability of the Russians to effectively bomb German airfields is counteracting the unrealistically high number of servicable German aircraft. Addressing one issue without the other will seriously unbalance the game.

I don't agree that neither player can concentrate their air power, nor that the Russians can't gain local or even general air superiority. While the latter just doesn't agree with my experience, airfields can travel far and fast and and reassign to new HQs. Air groups can transfer to new fields too. It is awkward though, and I regard this as a good feature of the game. I hate games where airpower gravitates towards killer stacks which stalk each other round a map, one seeking the 'final air battle', the other seeking to avoid it. I'm sometimes bewildered though, by some of the AI's choices, and I try to write the AI out of the script as far as possible.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 6/29/2011 8:21:46 PM >

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 8:50:07 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Interdiction is the best ground attack method.

I would dispute this one, but the rest of your post about sums it up.

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 9:11:03 PM   
WarHunter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Interdiction is the best ground attack method.

I would dispute this one, but the rest of your post about sums it up.


Interdiction leaves a lot of control out of the players hands. So it may not really be the best bang for the buck because of the randomness. But it does pay when it bleeds mp's off the moving units.

Hasty and deliberate attacks where the player can toggle on/off the air power is probably the most effective way to inflict casualties.

Both are good and lately i tend to like interdiction, but its not doctrine set in stone.

Unfortunately, this conflicts with bombing airbases. Which makes me sad.

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 9:23:44 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

(70-90 per turn)


At least initially, they are almost always higher, the last turn I checked had 235 training losses, but that might be due to increased losses in my version.

quote:

I see your really a glass half empty guy.


No, I'm just trying to make sure you don't fall into the all too common mental trap of "what I've destroyed is enough to hurt the Soviets". You really need to destroy more Soviet aircraft to make an impression.

My production estimate was based on the initial production, so for 49 turns it's much too low. At the start of the 1941 campaign, the Soviets produce 263 aircraft per turn. At the start of the 1942 campaign, they produce 719 aircraft per turn. The actual production in June 1942 will be slightly lower when you get there in a 1941-1945 campaign as all aircraft production starts maxed out in the 1942 campaign.

You can destroy 263 aircraft through bombing and intercepts, but destroying 719 isn't particularly likely unless the Soviets make some serious mistakes with their deployment.

For the Soviets, a war of attrition is a war they can win, and the losses you inflict on them just are not enough to turn the war in your favour.

As an aside, I'm getting some pretty decent results with my own air base bombing campaign (against the AI), but again only around 350-400 aircraft per turn, tops, at the moment, mostly due to how few bombers actually participate in the bombing missions and how few aircraft are actually destroyed. Currently, there seems to be no real direct relation between the amount of aircraft stationed at an air base and casualties from a bombing run, which is rather frustrating.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 6/29/2011 10:11:45 PM >

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 9:51:42 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

No, I'm just trying to make sure you don't fall into the all too common mental trap of "what I've destroyed is enough to hurt the Soviets". You really need to destroy more Soviet aircraft to make an impression

I hear what you're saying, but it seems to me that it's not merely a question of crunching planes. Like the Russian tank situation, if production gets going the Germans are not going to be able to kill enough to keep up. But by repeatedly trashing and degrading in terms of morale and experience, the structures in which the machines fight, they will be able to delay their own loss of practical battlefield superiority, potentially long enough to win the game outright.

I've never presented bombing Russian airfields as a way of gaining quantitative superiority against a competent Russian player, but one of delaying loss of battlefield superiority. Damaging the formations they fight in, best expressed in the losses screen as machines destroyed, is the best indicator of having made an impression, of having inflicted meaningful and potentially decisive damage to the ability of Russian formations to fight effectively.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 6/29/2011 9:56:41 PM >

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/29/2011 10:01:16 PM   
kirkgregerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Let me see if what I'm reading is being interrupted correctly. Version 1.03 up to the latest 1.04beta.

The axis player needs to bomb Red Air force bases to win the air war.

The soviet player needs to bomb axis airbases to win the air war.

Interdiction is the best ground attack method.

Air to Ground Attack helps soften up a target, but is hard to decipher how much good it does.

City bombing has changed alot between 1.03 and current beta.

The axis player has no way to help his allies with aircraft upgrades.

Anything to add?



yes, Axis minor allies don't seem to be able to support attacks made by German units. I've seen this many times with Rom air units (un-used) within 3-5 hexes not fly any support for German units on the attack or defense. Not sure this is a bug or WAD or just getting unlucky 'roll' for them to commit. Believe I've seen Rom air support Rom units.

< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 6/29/2011 10:02:32 PM >

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/30/2011 4:20:26 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Let me see if what I'm reading is being interrupted correctly. Version 1.03 up to the latest 1.04beta.

The axis player needs to bomb Red Air force bases to win the air war.

The soviet player needs to bomb axis airbases to win the air war.

Interdiction is the best ground attack method.

Air to Ground Attack helps soften up a target, but is hard to decipher how much good it does.

City bombing has changed alot between 1.03 and current beta.

The axis player has no way to help his allies with aircraft upgrades.

Anything to add?


Yes. The air war is a distraction. This is not WITP or Bombing of the Reich. Win or lose in the air, it's the ground war that will determine the real winner.
So don't fuss too much about it unless you want historical accuracy. :)


< Message edited by jomni -- 6/30/2011 4:23:16 AM >

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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/30/2011 2:20:40 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Status: offline 		Air power was often a decisive element in the ground battles and provides many useful tools to shaping the ground war and not to mention that it plays a significant role on morale for the ground troops. If properly modeled, it would add a new layer of strategy to the game. For example, interdiction in the game is practically useless when in reality the Germans used this to great effect when airgroups where assigned this specific mission over a specific interdiction area or zone. Air interdiction used by both sides on river crossing sites were decisive points with furious air battles erupting over control over the air at these crossing points. It was extremely difficult for either force to cross a river if the enemy possesed air supremacy. The Soviets were successful (at great cost) at delaying the Germans crossing the Luga and the Germans used interdiction quite successfully to shut down river crossings over the Dnepr around Kiev.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Let me see if what I'm reading is being interrupted correctly. Version 1.03 up to the latest 1.04beta.

The axis player needs to bomb Red Air force bases to win the air war.

The soviet player needs to bomb axis airbases to win the air war.

Interdiction is the best ground attack method.

Air to Ground Attack helps soften up a target, but is hard to decipher how much good it does.

City bombing has changed alot between 1.03 and current beta.

The axis player has no way to help his allies with aircraft upgrades.

Anything to add?


Yes. The air war is a distraction. This is not WITP or Bombing of the Reich. Win or lose in the air, it's the ground war that will determine the real winner.
So don't fuss too much about it unless you want historical accuracy. :)




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RE: Air Exploit? - 6/30/2011 3:20:14 PM   
arras

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I think the fact that this type of mechanic benefits the side with the most airframes makes it appear "unfair".

And what is wrong with that? Having more planes in the battle should give you advantage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KetzaAs the Axis you have to realize at some point you are not going to have air superiority everywhere and have to develop tactics to try and stop this type of attrition or at least make it painfull. You also have to choose where you are going to fight and concentrate.

But that is character of this game. It is designed to basically replay WWII. Axis are going to not have air superiority at one point. And Soviet player may bring that earlier by concentrated targeting of Axis fighter forces.

Bye the way Axis have enormous advantage in quality, I hardly kill any of his fighters in the airbattle, even if I enjoy numerical superiority.

Do somebody suggest that Axis player should be able to prevent any bombs falling on his bases when Soviet player sends concentrated air raids with lot of aircraft? Because that is what players seems to complain about.

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Post #: 46
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/1/2011 3:01:14 AM   
Ketza


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quote:

ORIGINAL: arras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I think the fact that this type of mechanic benefits the side with the most airframes makes it appear "unfair".

And what is wrong with that? Having more planes in the battle should give you advantage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KetzaAs the Axis you have to realize at some point you are not going to have air superiority everywhere and have to develop tactics to try and stop this type of attrition or at least make it painfull. You also have to choose where you are going to fight and concentrate.

But that is character of this game. It is designed to basically replay WWII. Axis are going to not have air superiority at one point. And Soviet player may bring that earlier by concentrated targeting of Axis fighter forces.

Bye the way Axis have enormous advantage in quality, I hardly kill any of his fighters in the airbattle, even if I enjoy numerical superiority.

Do somebody suggest that Axis player should be able to prevent any bombs falling on his bases when Soviet player sends concentrated air raids with lot of aircraft? Because that is what players seems to complain about.



I never said it WAS unfair I said it SEEMED unfair. The fact that the Soviet Air Force eventually eclipses the Luftwaffe is historical and I have no issue with that.

What I think has happened in some cases is Axis players are getting overwhelmed sooner then the historical timeline because they have not developed a doctrine that prohibits or makes painful the process of bombing Axis airfields into the dust early in the game.

I merely pointed out a few things that have helped me keep the Luftwaffe a viable force as I have not seen it destroyed in my games as others have had happen to them.

I would like to see an air mission to cap your own airfields however. I think it would be a benefit to both sides.

< Message edited by Ketza -- 7/1/2011 3:02:15 AM >

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RE: Air Exploit? - 7/1/2011 4:25:58 AM   
Baelfiin


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Status: offline 		I recent bombing attacks the red air force is able to bring 80 plane raids versus over 300 flak guns and wind up taking losses of _maybe_ 4 planes. In a raid with 20 ish russian fighters and 70 plus bombers being intercepted by 39 german fighters, russians lost 2 fighters and one bomber to 10 germans fighters and 16 bombers destroyed on the ground.

This particular base was 10 hexes behind the front lines stacked with piles of Flak. One would think that with the escorts outnumbered by twice as many interceptors, there would be a lot more soviet losses.


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Post #: 48
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/1/2011 6:57:11 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

I recent bombing attacks the red air force is able to bring 80 plane raids versus over 300 flak guns and wind up taking losses of _maybe_ 4 planes. In a raid with 20 ish russian fighters and 70 plus bombers being intercepted by 39 german fighters, russians lost 2 fighters and one bomber to 10 germans fighters and 16 bombers destroyed on the ground.


The results in my game are completely and utterly different. Any attempts to bomb German airfields results in slaughter for the Russians with virtually no German losses.

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RE: Air Exploit? - 7/1/2011 8:40:16 AM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

I recent bombing attacks the red air force is able to bring 80 plane raids versus over 300 flak guns and wind up taking losses of _maybe_ 4 planes. In a raid with 20 ish russian fighters and 70 plus bombers being intercepted by 39 german fighters, russians lost 2 fighters and one bomber to 10 germans fighters and 16 bombers destroyed on the ground.


The results in my game are completely and utterly different. Any attempts to bomb German airfields results in slaughter for the Russians with virtually no German losses.

Baelfin got lucky, that's an unusually poor performance from interceptors. Probably the interceptors never made contact and if the 300 FlaK were small calibre, they shoudn't touch level bombers.

I just raided a Finnish fighter base and 100+ interceptors sortied downing about 40 of mine for no loss. That was a highly unusual result though, possibly specific to Finnish fields.

The only bombers in my experience that cause little or no damage are tactical, on both sides. 76mm, would you mind posting some screenies showing your raid composition and interceptor levels?

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Post #: 50
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/1/2011 9:54:19 AM   
davetheroad

 

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Status: offline 		Some of the soviet aircraft weekly production rates quoted earlier looked a bit high to me so i checked my figures.
I only have 2 sets of statistics, a web set and from Glantz quoting russian sources.

web
41 - 15735
42 - 25436
43 - 34900
44 - 40300
45 - 20900
the figures appear to be off the total year production

glantz
41 - 8200
42 - 21700
43 - 29900
44 - 33200
45 - 8200

how do these compare to the games production?

The following figures from glantz are interesting
total aircraft and number with field forces
jun 41 - 20000/9200 46%
jan 42 - 12000/5400 45%
jan 43 - 21900/12300 56%
jan 44 - 32500/13400 41%
jan 45 - 43500/21500 49%
may 45 - 47300/22300 47%

What does the soviet airforce in the game represent?
the field force or the total pool of airframes?

If it is the field force then a historical or greater production rate will
result in a larger than historical field force as a lot of those airframes produced
are going into the pool and not the front.

If it is the total pool is there a mechanism to stop the soviet player from
adopting the normal gamer strategy of piling the whole lot
at the front because it does not cost anything and would not be the historical
logistical and organisational nightmare.

As far as the game is concerned are there any feedback mechanisms, positive or negative,
which keep the aircraft numbers within reasonable historical constraints?

for example if the luftwaffe is 'wiped out' does the game engine transfer aircraft from elsewhere
to maintain a bare minimum in the east. I understand that once they realised they were not going to
win this is what the german high command did, maintaining the minimum level of reinforcements they
thought they could get away with.

for the soviets is there a mechanism to cap the number of available aircraft at the front at the
historical maximums of 45- 55% or thereabouts.
It

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Post #: 51
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/1/2011 10:33:21 AM   
jomni


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Status: offline 		Well the German player has a chance of reducing Soviet production by taking the factories before they are evacuated early in the game. But easier said than done.

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Post #: 52
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/1/2011 11:24:41 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring
76mm, would you mind posting some screenies showing your raid composition and interceptor levels?


I don't think I have any, and I player server games, so can't go back to a save to get screenies. And given past peformance, I'm not eager to conduct any more bombing raids to show the results.

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Post #: 53
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/1/2011 12:29:31 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		By the way, the key component of the exploit isn't just bombing German air bases a few times, as losses tend to be high, but to do so over and over and over, until at some points the fighters are so tired that they can't fly missions anymore. You could also launch lots of recon missions first, or just small air base attack missions with a handful of fighters to wear down the enemy fighters.

In my game with James a while ago, he launched so many recon missions that my fighters were all too tired to do much later in the turn, so bombers flew unescorted ground support and interdiction missions with predictable results.

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Post #: 54
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/1/2011 2:02:28 PM   
Zebedee


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Status: offline 		Superb posts by Trey. Encouraged by Joel's past comments on being willing to revisit the air war at a later time so I'll keep fingers crossed that we can move away from the problems Mehring highlights in this thread into something with a bit more depth and nuance.

Just on the WiE vs WitP:AE - it's not quite the comparison to make. This game has an obvious close relationship with the original WitP. How far that extends is difficult for me to judge though.

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Post #: 55
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/9/2011 4:41:34 PM   
marty_01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
For the VVS, destroying a handful of planes for every couple of air base bombing missions whilst losing dozens is a rate of attrition that they can sustain perfectly, it's more difficult for the Luftwaffe. The primary problem isn't necessarily the number of destroyed aircraft, as German aircraft production's pretty decent, but the loss of morale and experience by the targeted air groups, which in turn will result in higher losses, starting a downward spiral that the Axis player can't halt.


The ingame early 1942 Red Airforce isnt losing dozens of aircraft for each Luftwaffe plane being detroyed in these massed air base attacks. The Red Air is loosing at a rate of 1:1 and better(!!) against the Luftwaffe. Lets not sugar coat this.

I'd be more than happy to post the ongoing Soviet Air base Attack results I am experiancing.

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Post #: 56
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/10/2011 12:26:01 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		and what has the German ground forces been doing all this time ? to cripple the SU Air, you need the ground forces taking them out, cripple a AF and then over run it, most of my pockets and breakthough were done with the idea of taking out as many AFs as I could along the way

if these are games started in 41, 42 the SU should still be more concerned with trying to rebuild his airforce, then in taking out the LW, by the Off moves in 43, 44, yea, then the SU airforce may be able to pound the Luft into the ground, but over all, sounds like people are not using what they have, to get done what has to be done, to allow these tactics to be used


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Post #: 57
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/10/2011 2:15:25 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

The ingame early 1942 Red Airforce isnt losing dozens of aircraft for each Luftwaffe plane being detroyed in these massed air base attacks. The Red Air is loosing at a rate of 1:1 and better(!!) against the Luftwaffe. Lets not sugar coat this.


It would depend on the amount of missions flown and whether the Soviet player launches so many missions that CAP is too tired to fly. The first missions are generally bad, after that things get better.

I'm not sugar coating it in the least, the way the VVS can cheese the Luftwaffe out of existence is one of my pet peeves.

Luckily, the aircraft commitment oddities Emir Agic noticed and the ones I had also posted about on the tester forum have been partially resolved, so the air war makes a bit more sense now.

quote:

to cripple the SU Air, you need the ground forces taking them out, cripple a AF and then over run it


That really takes a lot of bombing missions and if the Soviet player has less than 100 planes at an air base, he won't necessarily feel the pain with hundreds of aircraft being produced each turn.

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Post #: 58
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/10/2011 3:44:15 PM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		Same old arguments flying with insufficient if any justification.

You do not cripple the Russian air force by destrying all its planes. You do so by destroying their air regiments' morale and experience levels. This is best achieved by bombing their bases and destroying their planes, but destruction of planes is the means to another end not an end in itself. Given that German fighters win every time vs Russians, priority is degrading Russian level bomber regiments as they are the units that can hurt you.

Bombing Russian bases will only delay their achieving air superiority against a competant player, and rightly so. Anyone bemoaning the Russian ability to beat the Luftwaffe ought to read history.

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Post #: 59
RE: Air Exploit? - 7/10/2011 5:20:35 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Joined: 9/17/2009
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quote:

Same old arguments flying with insufficient if any justification.

You do not cripple the Russian air force by destrying all its planes. You do so by destroying their air regiments' morale and experience levels. This is best achieved by bombing their bases and destroying their planes, but destruction of planes is the means to another end not an end in itself. Given that German fighters win every time vs Russians, priority is degrading Russian level bomber regiments as they are the units that can hurt you.


The main question is whether that's possible, reducing Soviet morale and experience enough. For some reason, Axis air group morale also seems to be "pulled" to the national morale and even light losses cause a dent in experience/morale regardless of how many kills they have. The Soviets only need a 40-50 morale/experience air force as they rely on numbers.

quote:

Bombing Russian bases will only delay their achieving air superiority against a competant player, and rightly so. Anyone bemoaning the Russian ability to beat the Luftwaffe ought to read history.


We are "bemoaning" that the VVS can achieve front-wide air superiority against the Luftwaffe in 1942 through cheesing the Luftwaffe to death. If you think that's what historically happened, the VVS achieving front-wide air superiority in 1942, it is not the "moaners" that need to read up in history.

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Post #: 60
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