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RE: The RN Worst Day

 
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RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 8:03:14 AM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Ok, drawing now the plans for the operation "Waterfalls"...the evacuation of SOPAC



Don't, keep pouring in resources, he'll have a tough time resupplying his troops as well.

_____________________________

Surface combat TF fanboy

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1711
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 8:11:57 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Reading back what i wrote just a couple of pages ago.... you know those sadic people who first give to a baby a candy to make him smile...then they grab it back and slap the baby on his face!...well, i feel like the named baby

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1712
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 8:17:41 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: String


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Ok, drawing now the plans for the operation "Waterfalls"...the evacuation of SOPAC



Don't, keep pouring in resources, he'll have a tough time resupplying his troops as well.


What you mean? I should stay there? How am i supposed to resupply Tulagi and Lunga if i cannot keep an air defence over there? He's surrounding me building up with an incredible fast pace every single dot base around my positions...and every time i try to put up an umbrella CAP over a re-supply convoy it ends up with 300 planes on sweep that destroy my CAP, followed by well escorted Betties who easily sink the convoy...and by Helens which closes the AF were i based my CAP...i haven't been able to find a solution for that. No matter how good my pilots or planes can be...he will easily destroy my CAP with these sweeps...

What shall i do? I have to decide today...if i have to evacuate i have to do it now (it's already too late perhaps)...not next month...not tomorrow

(in reply to String)
Post #: 1713
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 8:43:50 AM   
Alfred

 

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Joined: 9/28/2006
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Stop wasting time repeating ad nauseum the same eroneous pitying statements, stop responding to each post made by third parties as if they all provide good advice, stop asking for explicit moves from your readers, stop sending off turns so quickly to your opponent and use the time to learn how to play the game and read those early posts from those who no longer bother to post here and were trying to train your mind to think.


  • there is a way to get supply through
  • there is a way to interdict your oponents supply lines
  • calculate what are the benefits of holding on


Also, if Rader is really interested in conquering all of India, and there is evidence he isn't, you are in serious danger of losing Karachi within 6 months. The large garrison you maintain at Karachi is a very poor, but absolutely typical of your play, use of Allied resources.

Alfred

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1714
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 8:45:19 AM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
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My only advice would be... deciede an general strategy on what you want.. commit to it and make him pay.

Only you know what general plan you have for your offensive or defensive actions.

You cannot shift those plans on and off... if you want to fight now than you do... if you want to retreat now than you do.... whatever you deciede to do than grind it through.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1715
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 8:47:49 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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Here's the situation map.

In every single one of those AF he has brought in no time at least 10k men (i bet all Eng units) and he's building AFs with an incredible speed!!!!

His fighters are disposed spread around in every single base, and his bombers too...

This is the last turn Sweeps over Lunga and Tulagi....



Morning Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 22 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 11
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 36



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
11 x A6M3a Zero sweeping at 31000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 31 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 36
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 27



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
27 x Ki-44-IIa Tojo sweeping at 31000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 12 NM, estimated altitude 36,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 40
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 36



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
40 x A6M3a Zero sweeping at 31000 feet


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 194 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 3
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 36



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x A6M3a Zero sweeping at 31000 feet





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 3rd Marine Defense Battalion, at 114,138 (Lunga)

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 135 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 42 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 57
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 118



Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 6 damaged
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 1 destroyed by flak


Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-49-IIa Helen bombing from 12000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
20 x Ki-49-IIa Helen bombing from 12000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
18 x Ki-49-IIa Helen bombing from 12000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
17 x Ki-49-IIa Helen bombing from 12000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
20 x Ki-49-IIa Helen bombing from 12000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
21 x Ki-49-IIa Helen bombing from 12000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 199 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 55 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 36
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 3



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-44-IIa Tojo sweeping at 31000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 197 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 4
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 36



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x A6M3a Zero sweeping at 31000 feet

Morning Air attack on Tulagi , at 114,137

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 43 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 13



Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 1
P-40E Warhawk x 1
P-40K Warhawk x 2


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed
P-40K Warhawk: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x A6M3a Zero sweeping at 31000 feet


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Tulagi , at 114,137

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 13



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x A6M3a Zero sweeping at 31000 feet


---------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Tassafaronga , at 113,137

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 92 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 7



No Japanese losses



Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Ki-45 KAIa Nick sweeping at 12000 feet






Attachment (1)

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1716
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 9:04:29 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Stop wasting time repeating ad nauseum the same eroneous pitying statements, stop responding to each post made by third parties as if they all provide good advice, stop asking for explicit moves from your readers, stop sending off turns so quickly to your opponent and use the time to learn how to play the game and read those early posts from those who no longer bother to post here and were trying to train your mind to think.


  • there is a way to get supply through
  • there is a way to interdict your oponents supply lines
  • calculate what are the benefits of holding on


Also, if Rader is really interested in conquering all of India, and there is evidence he isn't, you are in serious danger of losing Karachi within 6 months. The large garrison you maintain at Karachi is a very poor, but absolutely typical of your play, use of Allied resources.

Alfred


Thanks Alfred for coming in again.

I try to respond to every one who writes here because i feel that if someone is so cute and kind to take his time and write few lines (or even a lot of lines) to share his thoughts and give suggestions, that person at least needs a word of "reward" for giving his free contribute in order to make the AAR a shared experience of play, not only by the one who actually plays the game, but even for the readers. Obviously there may be some who don't like my style...

And i did always try to learn "how to play the game", investing and devoting really a lot of time in the process of learning...and, to be honest, i think i made some decent progress since the beginning...yes, it's still a long way to become a good player, but i'm willing to learn! and every day i learn something new about the mechanics and about strategy. But it takes time and lots of defeats to grasp the strategical and logistica concepts of this game. It's a tough learning curve.
In the Solomons for ex i really felt "safe". Never thought 120,000 allied well armed troops could be in danger in 1943...because i didn't consider the implications of the whole picture, or i did overvaluate my capability of defending my air space.

Thanks

GJ



(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 1717
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 9:06:58 AM   
GreyJoy


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Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aztez

My only advice would be... deciede an general strategy on what you want.. commit to it and make him pay.

Only you know what general plan you have for your offensive or defensive actions.

You cannot shift those plans on and off... if you want to fight now than you do... if you want to retreat now than you do.... whatever you deciede to do than grind it through.



Would it be so easy... When u don't have the experience to know if what you're planning in your mind have some chance of success, every single opinion can change your view about the plan.... so what seemed to be a good plan yesterday, becomes the worst possible plan tomorrow after someone managed to point out a detail that you simply haven't seen the day before...

(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 1718
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 9:30:21 AM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: aztez

My only advice would be... deciede an general strategy on what you want.. commit to it and make him pay.

Only you know what general plan you have for your offensive or defensive actions.

You cannot shift those plans on and off... if you want to fight now than you do... if you want to retreat now than you do.... whatever you deciede to do than grind it through.



Would it be so easy... When u don't have the experience to know if what you're planning in your mind have some chance of success, every single opinion can change your view about the plan.... so what seemed to be a good plan yesterday, becomes the worst possible plan tomorrow after someone managed to point out a detail that you simply haven't seen the day before...


That is the problem than. You can't keep shifting your "focus".

You either commit to battles or not. As long as he dictates what you can and will do than he has the upperhand.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1719
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 9:30:54 AM   
GreyJoy


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Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


  • there is a way to get supply through
  • there is a way to interdict your oponents supply lines
  • calculate what are the benefits of holding on


Alfred


About supply: i'm trying really hard to bring supplies to the Solomons. We've delivered quite a bit during the last month (but the price paid in terms of xAKs was high) but it's getting more difficult every day. I've been using C-47s, APDs in fast transport mode and fast xAKs escorted by DMSs and DDs...but the real point is that, once he conquers the air supremacy over the contested base, even if i succeed in the process of resupplying my garrisons, he will simply destroy that supply with his bombing attacks...and sooner than later he'll start bombing with his BBs (i bet he'll do that)..and my supplies will be gone in a second... If there's a way, i'm not seeing it.

About interdict his supply lines... I'm using my subs between Truk and Rabaul and they're achieving something...but a couple of xAKs in 2 weeks isn't exactly what is going to stop him from steamrolling me. However i'll keep on trying

Holding on will surely provide benefits for my upcoming counterinvasion of India. But to fix him here with the KB i need to provide a decent fight...and that means keeping on sending units, planes, ships and resources into the Solomons MeatGrinder...The risk is to lose badly here and give him however the time to get safely back to India with the Combined fleet once he has secured a ring of steel and fire around my Solomons garrisons, starving them to death and finally invading with overwhelming AVs. To hold on i need to find a way to stop his advance (building up the chain of bases that leads to Lunga) and to stand a fight against his sweeping fighters

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 1720
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 9:49:07 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
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Where did I say you had to reinforce Tulagi? I just said your use of the Allied resources at Karachi is very poor. Yet not a moment of introspection on your behalf as to why my statement might have been accurate and what it signifies. The two things are interrelated. As is the way to interdict Rader's supplies.

No, you have not improved your play at all. You just never stop to think things through even though way back in the early pages of this thread you were told the sort of things you had to consider. Instead you always go for the quick fix expecting someone to give you the answer, never bothering to put in the effort to work it out yourself. Thus you end up with several different answers provided by third parties, not all being good answers, and never develop an understanding of how to play the game.

Alfred

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1721
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 10:43:25 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Where did I say you had to reinforce Tulagi? I just said your use of the Allied resources at Karachi is very poor. Yet not a moment of introspection on your behalf as to why my statement might have been accurate and what it signifies. The two things are interrelated. As is the way to interdict Rader's supplies.

No, you have not improved your play at all. You just never stop to think things through even though way back in the early pages of this thread you were told the sort of things you had to consider. Instead you always go for the quick fix expecting someone to give you the answer, never bothering to put in the effort to work it out yourself. Thus you end up with several different answers provided by third parties, not all being good answers, and never develop an understanding of how to play the game.

Alfred


I thought you were talking about the Solomons when you stated those 3 points, not about Karachi.
Karachi shouldn't be in danger right now. He has pulled almost every one of his big units off and he's basically guarding his positions, relying on the air force to keep me at bay. I still have more than 400k supplies at Karachi and that should be enough to last untill the operation of the liberation of India takes place.

I don't think it's true what you said about me waiting for someone who finds solutions at my place. I do work and i do think about my plans. But at the same time i'm open to get as much suggestions as possible from more experienced players.

However, i'm sorry if you think i'm abusing readers' will to help me. That wasn't and isn't my intention.

Thanks anyway for sharing your thoughts.


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 1722
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 11:02:37 AM   
ADB123

 

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Unfortunately ADB is right again. I had to "Dunkirk" the Solomons when i could...but now...how can i do that?


You've mis-read what I wrote again - I didn't say evacuate the Solomons - I have been saying evacuate the New Hebrides and New Caledonia.

You need to build up New Zealand so that is can't be taken by the Japanese, and then so you can use it to counter-attack later in 1943. (In Radar's shoes, since he has already committed so much to the region, I would not stop at the Solomons or even the New Hebrides/New Caledonia, but also go for New Zealand in order to totally cut off Oz from the east.)

Leave your forces in the eastern Solomons, send in supplies by sub, single small xAK, and transport planes. Continue to bomb Japanese positions with 4Es. And simultaneously pull out first your combat troops, and then your support troops out of the New Hebrides and New Caledonia.

As far as India goes - what INTEL do you have that convinces you that your opponent has pulled his major forces out? If you have such INTEL, then start marching your forces forwards as I said before. If you don't, then still march your forces forward so that he has more than one Air Target to attack.

What you don't know in India is if Radar is bluffing, or if he intends to move in and attack. You must determine that.


(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1723
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 11:12:04 AM   
Alfred

 

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Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
How do you know your supplies in Karachi will suffice. My calculations say otherwise. You are assuming the present circumstances will continue. If Rader is of a mind to do so he can quite easily change the circumstances.

The point is you are being complacent again with no back up plan if your current plan comes unstuck. You say that Rader has pulled out almost all of his big units. What evidence do you have for that statement, and if it is true what are you doing with such a large garrison (IIRC you said about 8k Allied AV) doing nothing against, according to your assessment a weak enemy position. Karachi, in itself is a fairly unimportant base. Why do you think it and it's garrison is important? How does it fit into your overall strategy? What concrete assistance does it provide to your other theatres? If nothing else, just ask yourself this one question. Why is doing anything in India after May 1943 so much better than doing something now, either in India or using your lazy unemployed Karachi garrison? And by doing "something now" I don't mean a knee jerk action but a carefully considered operation which is consistent with and aids your other operations elsewhere.

Even if it takes you a week of not sending a turn to Rader to properly answer these questions, it would still be the correct course of action. A strong player can afford to churn out turns at the rate you do. You are far from that and need the extra time to learn.

Alfred

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1724
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 11:13:26 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

quote:

Unfortunately ADB is right again. I had to "Dunkirk" the Solomons when i could...but now...how can i do that?


You've mis-read what I wrote again - I didn't say evacuate the Solomons - I have been saying evacuate the New Hebrides and New Caledonia.

You need to build up New Zealand so that is can't be taken by the Japanese, and then so you can use it to counter-attack later in 1943. (In Radar's shoes, since he has already committed so much to the region, I would not stop at the Solomons or even the New Hebrides/New Caledonia, but also go for New Zealand in order to totally cut off Oz from the east.)

Leave your forces in the eastern Solomons, send in supplies by sub, single small xAK, and transport planes. Continue to bomb Japanese positions with 4Es. And simultaneously pull out first your combat troops, and then your support troops out of the New Hebrides and New Caledonia.

As far as India goes - what INTEL do you have that convinces you that your opponent has pulled his major forces out? If you have such INTEL, then start marching your forces forwards as I said before. If you don't, then still march your forces forward so that he has more than one Air Target to attack.

What you don't know in India is if Radar is bluffing, or if he intends to move in and attack. You must determine that.




Yes, i got it now. It's tearing my heart apart to leave those guys to rot in the jungle... but i do see your point. I don't think Rader will go any further than New Caledonia tough. NZ will mean activate more emergency reinforcements and i don't think he wanna do that. But once the Solomons are isolated and bypassed...nothing will be able to stop him from doing the same process against Espiritu Santo, New Hebridis etc etc...

I don't have any reliable Intel about India. I was just considering that numbers of units spotted at Jodpur and Multan is decreasing and i with at least 15 big units in SOPAC (plus all those regiments, Bdes, base forces, engineers etc) i think Rader has left to India just enough to hold against an allied land march towards Multan. Having the complete air supremacy enables him to leave only a relative small garrison at Multan and Jodpur (say 5000 AVs in the two of them) and, dug in behind 9 forts, with 6/700 bombers pounding me, there's no way i'll be able to crush that bottleneck and advance any further.

Ok, operation "Waterfalls" so. Evacuate.

Gotta do it without letting him sniff it...

(in reply to ADB123)
Post #: 1725
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 11:30:38 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

quote:

Unfortunately ADB is right again. I had to "Dunkirk" the Solomons when i could...but now...how can i do that?


You've mis-read what I wrote again - I didn't say evacuate the Solomons - I have been saying evacuate the New Hebrides and New Caledonia.

You need to build up New Zealand so that is can't be taken by the Japanese, and then so you can use it to counter-attack later in 1943. (In Radar's shoes, since he has already committed so much to the region, I would not stop at the Solomons or even the New Hebrides/New Caledonia, but also go for New Zealand in order to totally cut off Oz from the east.)

Leave your forces in the eastern Solomons, send in supplies by sub, single small xAK, and transport planes. Continue to bomb Japanese positions with 4Es. And simultaneously pull out first your combat troops, and then your support troops out of the New Hebrides and New Caledonia.

As far as India goes - what INTEL do you have that convinces you that your opponent has pulled his major forces out? If you have such INTEL, then start marching your forces forwards as I said before. If you don't, then still march your forces forward so that he has more than one Air Target to attack.

What you don't know in India is if Radar is bluffing, or if he intends to move in and attack. You must determine that.




Yes, i got it now. It's tearing my heart apart to leave those guys to rot in the jungle... but i do see your point. I don't think Rader will go any further than New Caledonia tough. NZ will mean activate more emergency reinforcements and i don't think he wanna do that. But once the Solomons are isolated and bypassed...nothing will be able to stop him from doing the same process against Espiritu Santo, New Hebridis etc etc...

I don't have any reliable Intel about India. I was just considering that numbers of units spotted at Jodpur and Multan is decreasing and i with at least 15 big units in SOPAC (plus all those regiments, Bdes, base forces, engineers etc) i think Rader has left to India just enough to hold against an allied land march towards Multan. Having the complete air supremacy enables him to leave only a relative small garrison at Multan and Jodpur (say 5000 AVs in the two of them) and, dug in behind 9 forts, with 6/700 bombers pounding me, there's no way i'll be able to crush that bottleneck and advance any further.

Ok, operation "Waterfalls" so. Evacuate.

Gotta do it without letting him sniff it...


I'm sick and tired of you just pulling AV numbers out of thin air.


  • Go and open scenario 2 as the Japanese player and count up all the Japanese AV as at 7 December 1941.
  • Add up the AV of all additional Japanese LCUs received by the current date.
  • Add up the AV of all additional Japanese LCUs received by the current date.
  • Add up all the AV garrison requirements in India, China, the DEI and Malaya/Burma
  • In your next turn, get your smallest possible Chinese unit at Chungking to launch an artillery bombardment to ascertain the exact Japanese AV present
  • Look at your own atolls and see how much AV is provided by the stacking limits. Transfer that figure to every Japanese owned atoll which you believe is garrisoned


When you have finished that rather unglamorous work, then I might start to put some credence on your claims.

Alfred

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1726
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 11:43:25 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

How do you know your supplies in Karachi will suffice. My calculations say otherwise. You are assuming the present circumstances will continue. If Rader is of a mind to do so he can quite easily change the circumstances.

The point is you are being complacent again with no back up plan if your current plan comes unstuck. You say that Rader has pulled out almost all of his big units. What evidence do you have for that statement, and if it is true what are you doing with such a large garrison (IIRC you said about 8k Allied AV) doing nothing against, according to your assessment a weak enemy position. Karachi, in itself is a fairly unimportant base. Why do you think it and it's garrison is important? How does it fit into your overall strategy? What concrete assistance does it provide to your other theatres? If nothing else, just ask yourself this one question. Why is doing anything in India after May 1943 so much better than doing something now, either in India or using your lazy unemployed Karachi garrison? And by doing "something now" I don't mean a knee jerk action but a carefully considered operation which is consistent with and aids your other operations elsewhere.

Even if it takes you a week of not sending a turn to Rader to properly answer these questions, it would still be the correct course of action. A strong player can afford to churn out turns at the rate you do. You are far from that and need the extra time to learn.

Alfred



My overall strategic plan (cause yes, i had a plan. Maybe it was the worst possible one, but i had it) was the following:

1 - Gain a statlemate in India, with Karachi being secure.
2- Make him focus somewhere else in the pacific. (here the original plan was to try again against the Gilberts, but then i found the door of the Solomons open and i try to use that opportunity at best, moving as fast as possi all the assets prepped for the Gilberts through that open door).
3- Get a strong position in the pacific and force him to react to me, moving back his main assets from India, using the time (that i believed much much longer) he needed to ship back all his divisions to reinforce my garrisons to a point where he could not crush them.
4- At the same time sending an Army of US and OZ tanks to U.K., along with transports, to be ready to move to Aden as soon as the Med opens and re-unite with the Indian Corp arrived with the Emergency reinforcements.
5- While he was fully committed in an attrition war in the pacific, counterinvade in India at Surat, with a combined movement in forces from Karachi to Multan (this would have forced him to abbandon all his indian front line).


Why is doing anything in India after May 1943 so much better than doing something now, either in India or using your lazy unemployed Karachi garrison?

Ok, my thought is that i cannot "simply" advance towards Multan under the present conditions. He will bomb me to dust during the process cause i will have nothing to interdict his bombers rather than the AA. My troops will march on plain ground and, considering the number of bombers he still has in India (i'd say between 600 and 700) the risk (very probable imho) is to remain stuck at the very gates on Multan with a badly distrupted army, far away from the supply centers (Hyderabad and Karachi) and unable to crush the Multan defences (he has 30 units there and at least 2 Guards Divisions, behind, i bet, 9 forts). A terrible strategic situation imho.

While if i wait to have enough resources for a counter-landing i hope to force him to divide his targets and to face the condition of being put under two fires (the army advancing from Karachi towards Multan and the counter invasion army landed at Surat under the umbrella of the CVs). I think that in this case he will have to abbandon Multan fast, not to risk to be trapped in middle india.

Is this plan so crazy?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 1727
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 12:00:13 PM   
ADB123

 

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
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quote:

Ok, my thought is that i cannot "simply" advance towards Multan under the present conditions. He will bomb me to dust during the process cause i will have nothing to interdict his bombers rather than the AA. My troops will march on plain ground and, considering the number of bombers he still has in India (i'd say between 600 and 700) the risk (very probable imho) is to remain stuck at the very gates on Multan with a badly distrupted army, far away from the supply centers (Hyderabad and Karachi) and unable to crush the Multan defences (he has 30 units there and at least 2 Guards Divisions, behind, i bet, 9 forts). A terrible strategic situation imho.


Where is your INTEL for those assumptions? Why do you insist on looking only at Multan? Why are you so afraid of having troops bombed? If he is bombing troops he isn't bombing elsewhere. And if he splits his bombers their effectiveness goes down.

quote:

While if i wait to have enough resources for a counter-landing i hope to force him to divide his targets and to face the condition of being put under two fires (the army advancing from Karachi towards Multan and the counter invasion army landed at Surat under the umbrella of the CVs). I think that in this case he will have to abbandon Multan fast, not to risk to be trapped in middle India.


Why do you think that an invasion of Surat will go better than your counter-attacks in the Solomons? What will you do when he turns those "hundreds and hundreds" of bombers and fighters on your invasion forces?

quote:

Is this plan so crazy?


It's another "hail mary" plan that is based upon the hope that Radar will panic.

Well, he hasn't panicked at your Solomons campaign, so why do you think things will be different in Surat?

I'll predict what will happen - you will invade, Radar will quickly move in overwhelming forces, and because you have your forces "huddling-in-fear" in Karachi they will be out of position to stop a mass relocation of Japanese troops.

However, if your forces are threatening multiple Japanese positions when you invade Radar will not be able to move his forces so easily.

Stop looking for "hail mary" solutions and start planning to bring overwhelming forces where Radar is weak.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1728
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 12:23:43 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123

quote:

Unfortunately ADB is right again. I had to "Dunkirk" the Solomons when i could...but now...how can i do that?


You've mis-read what I wrote again - I didn't say evacuate the Solomons - I have been saying evacuate the New Hebrides and New Caledonia.

You need to build up New Zealand so that is can't be taken by the Japanese, and then so you can use it to counter-attack later in 1943. (In Radar's shoes, since he has already committed so much to the region, I would not stop at the Solomons or even the New Hebrides/New Caledonia, but also go for New Zealand in order to totally cut off Oz from the east.)

Leave your forces in the eastern Solomons, send in supplies by sub, single small xAK, and transport planes. Continue to bomb Japanese positions with 4Es. And simultaneously pull out first your combat troops, and then your support troops out of the New Hebrides and New Caledonia.

As far as India goes - what INTEL do you have that convinces you that your opponent has pulled his major forces out? If you have such INTEL, then start marching your forces forwards as I said before. If you don't, then still march your forces forward so that he has more than one Air Target to attack.

What you don't know in India is if Radar is bluffing, or if he intends to move in and attack. You must determine that.




Yes, i got it now. It's tearing my heart apart to leave those guys to rot in the jungle... but i do see your point. I don't think Rader will go any further than New Caledonia tough. NZ will mean activate more emergency reinforcements and i don't think he wanna do that. But once the Solomons are isolated and bypassed...nothing will be able to stop him from doing the same process against Espiritu Santo, New Hebridis etc etc...

I don't have any reliable Intel about India. I was just considering that numbers of units spotted at Jodpur and Multan is decreasing and i with at least 15 big units in SOPAC (plus all those regiments, Bdes, base forces, engineers etc) i think Rader has left to India just enough to hold against an allied land march towards Multan. Having the complete air supremacy enables him to leave only a relative small garrison at Multan and Jodpur (say 5000 AVs in the two of them) and, dug in behind 9 forts, with 6/700 bombers pounding me, there's no way i'll be able to crush that bottleneck and advance any further.

Ok, operation "Waterfalls" so. Evacuate.

Gotta do it without letting him sniff it...


I'm sick and tired of you just pulling AV numbers out of thin air.


  • Go and open scenario 2 as the Japanese player and count up all the Japanese AV as at 7 December 1941.
  • Add up the AV of all additional Japanese LCUs received by the current date.
  • Add up the AV of all additional Japanese LCUs received by the current date.
  • Add up all the AV garrison requirements in India, China, the DEI and Malaya/Burma
  • In your next turn, get your smallest possible Chinese unit at Chungking to launch an artillery bombardment to ascertain the exact Japanese AV present
  • Look at your own atolls and see how much AV is provided by the stacking limits. Transfer that figure to every Japanese owned atoll which you believe is garrisoned


When you have finished that rather unglamorous work, then I might start to put some credence on your claims.

Alfred



Ok. i'll do that. However my assumptions in terms of AVs are made upon what i've seen in India and those infos taken from the sigghtin reports. he had nearly 18,000 AVs in india. at least 7,000 of those AVs were seen or reported in the Solomons so, considering that most of his sensible defensive perimeter targets (say the Bonins, Mariannas, Java, Diego and Scoodra) were already well garrisoned, it's more than probable that he has left a consistent garrison in India (those 150 units my recon spots every day cannot be all base forces.

However i'll do the check you suggested and analyze the results

Thanks

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 1729
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 12:30:14 PM   
SoliInvictus202


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline
GreyJoy, I am impressed by your patience to deal with obviously offensive AND insulting statements by others....

I believe it to be most important, that if someone posts something, he should do so in an objective and non-insulting way... if someone does not like what he sees or reads over and over again, then he should stop reading it.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1730
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 12:40:24 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123


Where is your INTEL for those assumptions? Why do you insist on looking only at Multan? Why are you so afraid of having troops bombed? If he is bombing troops he isn't bombing elsewhere. And if he splits his bombers their effectiveness goes down.


I'm afraid of having troops bombed because i've experiemented during the first days of the Indian campaign what means being bombed in plain terrain without an air cover. i had ENTIRE indian bde liquified in few days caught in plain terrain by his bombers. Seriously, most of the units he destroyed (wiped out) during the ealry indian campaign were only touched by his bombers, not by his troops

quote:




Why do you think that an invasion of Surat will go better than your counter-attacks in the Solomons? What will you do when he turns those "hundreds and hundreds" of bombers and fighters on your invasion forces?



That's why i needed to pinn him down in the pacific...his his hordes were dealing with a serious threat in the pacific they could not be in india facing the invasion...but now that my "serious threat" has melted away like snow under the sun, don't know anymore. think now my plan crumbles like a card-castle

quote:



It's another "hail mary" plan that is based upon the hope that Radar will panic.

Well, he hasn't panicked at your Solomons campaign, so why do you think things will be different in Surat?

I'll predict what will happen - you will invade, Radar will quickly move in overwhelming forces, and because you have your forces "huddling-in-fear" in Karachi they will be out of position to stop a mass relocation of Japanese troops.

However, if your forces are threatening multiple Japanese positions when you invade Radar will not be able to move his forces so easily.

Stop looking for "hail mary" solutions and start planning to bring overwhelming forces where Radar is weak.



"Weak"...at the moment i can't see a place where he's weak...i thought i had overwhelming forces in the Solomons...gotta re-think of my understanding of the term "overwhelming ".

Ok, let's analyze where we've come up so far.

1- i cannot win the attrition battle for the Solomons cause he already managed to outnumber me.
2- If i cannot force him to overcommitt on the long run in the Solomons, i cannot hope to catch him off guard with an Indian counterinvasion.
3- I need to save what can still be saved of my assets deployed in SOPAC.
4- I need not to lose my CVs right now.
5- I cannot hope to face him under the present conditions in a campaign of attrition.

The above considerations imply that i have to change the overall plans for 1943 (which were to gain a solid position in southern NG and Solomons and to counterinvade india).

Now i have to consider what will remain to me after the evacuation of the SOPAC (and the loss of the Solomons army)....and see what will i be able to do next

(in reply to ADB123)
Post #: 1731
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 12:46:38 PM   
beppi

 

Posts: 382
Joined: 3/11/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
I have to admit, sometimes i think a little bit that you have a talent to move yourself into not decent positions. While it increases the overall fun and challenge of the game sometimes it is hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. So my respect to you and your will to fight even when it is not always easy.

Only advices i want to give are, build more bases. Look at Reder and what he is doing. He is developing every base possible. And as allied player you can to the same at much greater speed. At begin of 1943 you are able to develop 5-8 bases at the same time with at least 200 engi vehicle equivalents at the same time.

Second advice is, build the bases where you need them. You need fall back positions. You tend to assault from bad developed positions and as soon as reder does a counterstrike you have a problem. I see on the screenshots that now you start to develop new caledonia. But now it may be to late (And one or two lvl 8 bases are not a safe place, asume two lvl8 and at least one lvl 5-6 next to each other with at least 150k supply in each as a good spot). So the idea to fall back to new zeeland might not be the worst. Always develop a safe place to originate your assaults first, and that place has to be secure. I already wrote a comment how to properly secure a network of bases.

< Message edited by beppi -- 7/28/2011 12:47:29 PM >

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 1732
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 12:52:12 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202

GreyJoy, I am impressed by your patience to deal with obviously offensive AND insulting statements by others....

I believe it to be most important, that if someone posts something, he should do so in an objective and non-insulting way... if someone does not like what he sees or reads over and over again, then he should stop reading it.


Well, not that i have not noticed the tone particularly "harsh" of Alfred's statements...but i do feel that if someone cares to help you, even if his "way" of doing it doesn't suit your taste, it's a sign of care nonetheless.

It's like when you're a young school boy. Not all the professors are "sweet-words". Sometimes you feel they treat you unfairly...but most of the times they do it for your own goodness.

I remember one of my best teacher when i was at high scholl...she was a b****! She used to send me back to my desk with a collection of "F-"s and, more often than not, with some harsh words along with the bad votes.... i hated her.
But that method forced me to study more...at least to show her she was wrong and i was not the retarted she pretended me to be...well...at the end, thanks to her methods, i graduated with a decent final vote in that particular subject (was math btw)

(in reply to SoliInvictus202)
Post #: 1733
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 1:17:31 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
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One note, GreyJoy - you need to hold for but two months more, before you'll get the horde of Hellcats that, coupled with superior pilots, will eat Japanese airforce alive and spit out its bones (I think you already see a gap in quality between Japanese and Allied pilots, and at the current rate of exchange it is only going to increase, even though rader is probably using every gamey resizing trick to provide himself with pilots). So you need to ask yourself if your Solomons position can hold for two more months AND what you can do to make them hold for this long.

Also, take note, that India doesn't significantly improve Japanese production capabilities, except production of supplies, which Japs in Scen 2 already have heaps of. Tarakan or Lanchow are worth about as much as the whole subcontinent. I think Rader is either grievously mistaken about sustainability of his war effort, shutting down large portions of his shipbuilding program or is living in debt on existing fuel/oil stockpiles.

Speaking about the shipbuilding program, I don't see much attention to communication interdiction and merchant hunting on yout part. Maybe I've missed it, but what are you doing with your sub fleet? Surface raiding through Central Pacific also can be quite profitable, although as Japanese aviation expands this window of opportunity gradually closes. If you want a ballsy approach, even carrier raiding can be performed, as long as you know where KB is, and you do (not that I believe a successful battle against KB is anywhere near impossible at this stage, but it is a needless risk when in a few months your forces will increase massively). Maybe not around Home Islands, but how about trying to smoke Palembang with a carrier aviation raid? Japanese search assets aren't sufficient to cover everything and risk of successful LBA retaliation against the full Allied carrier fleet is pretty minimal, unless you assault the Japanese spearhead directly or go near Tokyo. Even if the operation fails, it should serve to stretch Rader's forces and make him more concerned about his perimeter.

Above all, though, don't make rash moves, like the one that caused such damage to RN and don't listen too much to armchair strategists, like Alfred. Repeating what I said above, your opponent's strategy is not sustainable. You'll only play into Rader's hand by panicking and either risking irreplaceable assets (carriers, primarily) in an attempt to force a decisive battle instead of an attritional one or losing heart and refusing to sacrifice easily replaceable ones (xAKs, squads, planes) to hold the line.

< Message edited by FatR -- 7/28/2011 1:21:38 PM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1734
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 1:34:53 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
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And about Jap subs... My longest PBEM is slightly ahead of yours in time and my I-boats are getting pounded by modern American DDs, with what seems like a rather minimal ASW effort on the Allied part. Air ASW seems to be less potent under the beta patch and you need long-ranged patrol planes for search, so just take time to deploy several dedicated hunter-killer groups, hand-picking ship commanders and enjoy the carnage.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 1735
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 1:51:50 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
GreyJoy, you may need to offer milk and cookies with your AAR.  Some folks need to relax a bit.

FatR is right about the pace of things.  In the sub wars, American PFs are death on Japanese subs.  They have an ASW rating of 11, if memory serves.  In my game with Miller, a wily and tenacious defender of the Empire, he squawked vociferously once USN PFs got ahold of his subs.

I will say that in my game with Miller, Allied top-end fighters like Corsairs and Hellcats didn't do very well, but I think my pilots were in very bad shape.  I didn't engage in pilot training, so I was at a disadvantage in terms of pilot quality.  You, on the other hand, have superbly training fighters, so the voices of experience in here seem to hold out the promise that abundant high-quality Hellcats are going to make a big difference for you.

If I read your posts right, you had ASW TFs following your carrier TFs?  You had that exactly backwards.  NYGiants gave very detailed and good information about how to optimally configure your TFs for ASW purposes.

Alfred is right about gathering information.  The more experience a player gets, the more he seeks, evaluates, knows how to interpret, and relies upon information.  A newer player would never even think to do a complete census of Japanese combat unit AV in order to figure out what's where, but doing so will provide you with a great deal of information.  The same thing with Japanese capital ships.  If you're not doing so already, keep a chart (or user Tracker or whatever tools are handy) with a list of every capital ship and their most current known or suspected locations.  Eventually, you're going to find out that a big concentration of CAs or CVs or whatever are way off in one sector, thus making it possible to you to achieve local superiority somewhere else where you're just about to mount a massive invasion.  That's critically useful information.  (Most player intuitively keep track of enemy carriers, but less keep track of battlewagons and cruisers, but those are about as important.)

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 1736
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 2:19:39 PM   
kfsgo

 

Posts: 446
Joined: 9/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Alfred is right about gathering information.  The more experience a player gets, the more he seeks, evaluates, knows how to interpret, and relies upon information.  A newer player would never even think to do a complete census of Japanese combat unit AV in order to figure out what's where, but doing so will provide you with a great deal of information.  The same thing with Japanese capital ships.  If you're not doing so already, keep a chart (or user Tracker or whatever tools are handy) with a list of every capital ship and their most current known or suspected locations.  Eventually, you're going to find out that a big concentration of CAs or CVs or whatever are way off in one sector, thus making it possible to you to achieve local superiority somewhere else where you're just about to mount a massive invasion.  That's critically useful information.  (Most player intuitively keep track of enemy carriers, but less keep track of battlewagons and cruisers, but those are about as important.)


Yep - even if you're not using the tracker program, it's still possible to keep track of stuff - for example, move all your sigint[date] and combatreport[date] text files to another directory and then search for strings - 'Division' is a good one! I did this (my PC can't cope with the tracker) and even in March 42 I was pretty much able to account for the Japanese army - where it had been, where it was and to a certain extent where it was going. A lot of times the information signals give you is only really meaningful when you've got a whole bunch of it, so laying it out visually really does help.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1737
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 4:32:59 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Unfortunately ADB is right again. I had to "Dunkirk" the Solomons when i could...but now...how can i do that?
How can i evacuate the equivalent of 3 divisions, 4 Tanks BNs, tons of eng, base forces, artillery etc etc....??
If i let them there they will simply be bombed to dust and then captured. If i try to evacuate them without a decent air cover Rader is going to annihilate my forces with KB+SUPER-LBA.

What can i do? I can use my 150 C-47s...but i'll have to leave behind all the heavy equipment and for sure most of the units won't be saved...

Should i try to organize a inverse-Tokyo Express evacuation style? Would it be worth?

You know that i cannot let my best Marines Divisions to simply rot there...

Again...Greyjoy...you've overvaluated your chances and your forces...and now you pay the heavy price of your own stupid bad plans.


Well, don't feel too bad. I think Rader is just providing a demonstration that if played to the fullest, with PDU on, (and some very Japanese oriented HRs) scen #2 can be exploited to really crush the Allies. Quite frankly, with what I am seeing, even the best Allied player is going to have problems with this plan. I said this over a year ago, but emphasize it again that the Japanese players strategy in scen #2 and perhaps #1 should be to go right for the Allied air force in 1942. The advantages of Japanese production makes the numbers, even with massive losses, work for the Japanese player.

The Allied choices are not good. Either fight and lose your air power and perhaps your carriers or hide and concede vast amounts of territory to your opponent. A great Allied player may be able to find the right balance but it becomes very difficult as the Japanese players knows exactly what the Allied replacement rate is.

If you survive then scen 2 becomes fun and perhaps balanced but the first year is very dangerous.


_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1738
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 4:44:02 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Hi FatR, Beppi, CR and Kfsgo! and thanks!

Concerning the ASW thing...i did everything NY59Giant pointed out...but have to admit that i made a mistake and put the ASW TF following the CV TF and not the other way around .

While for everything else...i confess i'm completely confused at the moment. I followed Alfred suggestion (which has been given also by Nemo some time ago) and asked Rader a brief break to re-think about my strategies...

...it's absolutely tough for me to understand what to do now...i feel confused, lost and disorientated. if i look at the map i cannot decide what to do...everything is so foggy... i cannot see any further than tomorrow and under these conditions i simply cannot take any decision (thank God this is a game...think about if it was real...i'll have to resign immediately!).

Thanks to everybody...

(in reply to kfsgo)
Post #: 1739
RE: The RN Worst Day - 7/28/2011 4:59:40 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


Speaking about the shipbuilding program, I don't see much attention to communication interdiction and merchant hunting on yout part. Maybe I've missed it, but what are you doing with your sub fleet? Surface raiding through Central Pacific also can be quite profitable, although as Japanese aviation expands this window of opportunity gradually closes. If you want a ballsy approach, even carrier raiding can be performed, as long as you know where KB is, and you do (not that I believe a successful battle against KB is anywhere near impossible at this stage, but it is a needless risk when in a few months your forces will increase massively). Maybe not around Home Islands, but how about trying to smoke Palembang with a carrier aviation raid? Japanese search assets aren't sufficient to cover everything and risk of successful LBA retaliation against the full Allied carrier fleet is pretty minimal, unless you assault the Japanese spearhead directly or go near Tokyo. Even if the operation fails, it should serve to stretch Rader's forces and make him more concerned about his perimeter.


Rader told me that he stopped almost every HI consumtpion for any Naval program, concentrating only on planes and pilots...

And my results with subs have been terrible so far...fortunately things are getting better since i adopted the NY59Giants last suggestion (the encirclement of Truk). In the last week we sunk 3 xAKs and one AV...but losing 3 subs in the process. However things are getting better and my torps are finally starting to work properly!

For everything else (raids etc)...i had thought about it...but never found the resources to plan a gamble like that (all my scheldues were concentrated on my orignal plan for SOPAC and India)...

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 1740
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