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Out of pilot slots - 8/2/2011 4:08:48 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline 		When I run the 1sep45 turn, I get the out-of-pilot-slots message (about a gazillion times). When I try to pull a new pilot out of the pool, I get the message and no pilot.

turn created on 1108p3

problem exists when the turn is processed with eitther p3 or p6.

Save attached with file renamed from .pws to .zip, PW by PM to michaelm





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by pompack -- 8/2/2011 4:11:46 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/2/2011 4:43:35 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		You need to release pilots from your units & reserve if you have reached 50k pilots to free slots. There are buttons for that in Beta, in unit Pilot screen and in reserve pool page.

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(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 2
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/2/2011 6:20:03 PM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline 		In what Beta was releasing pilots added?

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Post #: 3
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/2/2011 8:22:49 PM   
mikkey


Posts: 3142
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		some tweaks are in
[1108m] -> Tweaked Deleted more killed/captured pilots when at pilot max limit [MEM]
and also in
[1108m4/5] -> Added Option to release or retire low experienced named pilots - in group and reserve lists [MEM]
-> Tweaked Pilot overflow to clear more pilots. Corrected some discrepancies in pilot numbers [MEM]

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Post #: 4
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/2/2011 9:44:15 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikkey

some tweaks are in
[1108m] -> Tweaked Deleted more killed/captured pilots when at pilot max limit [MEM]
and also in
[1108m4/5] -> Added Option to release or retire low experienced named pilots - in group and reserve lists [MEM]
-> Tweaked Pilot overflow to clear more pilots. Corrected some discrepancies in pilot numbers [MEM]

yep, got all of those.

I am not retiring low experienced pilots because they are better than the ones in the pool that I can't get to. I move those pilots from the general pool to the training squadrons and only go to the base pool when I run out (or I get lazy )

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Post #: 5
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/2/2011 9:47:55 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

You need to release pilots from your units & reserve if you have reached 50k pilots to free slots. There are buttons for that in Beta, in unit Pilot screen and in reserve pool page.


"Releasing" pilots does not help at all since they still stay on the name list. Retiring pilots from the general pool into oblivion would help but that is rather pointless since the pilots in the general pool are better than the noob pilots in the base pool that I would like to access.

As to total numbers, I have 5500 in the general pools, 3500 in the base pools and about 2000 active in the air units for a total of about 11,000 pilots. While my opponent has a lot, I don't think he has over 39,000 which still puts our total, live pilots at under 50,000

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Post #: 6
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 3:15:36 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		perhaps we'll need michaelm to answer this, but what would be the effect of using the old 180-day rotation?

that is, open your save-game in 1106, punch the dross pilots back for 6 months leave, save the game, then re-open in 1108.

will the R&R pilots still count against the 50K limit?

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Post #: 7
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 3:56:09 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I thought the whole point of the "Release Pilot" was that they were dropped altogether, freeing up pilot slots.

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Post #: 8
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 4:12:12 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		hmm i may be wrong, but i think my released pilots are going directly to the reserve pool.
the 1/5/10 release buttons are just to reduce the clickfest of sending them 1st to sqn reserve, then clicking again to general reserve.

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Post #: 9
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 4:48:40 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		That is releasing from the air group.  If you go to the pilot pool screen, it also has a release button.  Releasing from the pool sends them to oblivion.

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Pax

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Post #: 10
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 6:20:55 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

That is releasing from the air group.  If you go to the pilot pool screen, it also has a release button.  Releasing from the pool sends them to oblivion.

thx! i see that now - when i access the pilot pool from the 'I' screen & switch to the reserve pool, i get the option to bliterate 1/5/10/50 pilots to blivion. or i click on individual pilots to do the same - v. useful to cull the worst from my pool. Some of these guys are worth sending to 'training' sqns, but there's more than a few that need to explore career options in the civilian sector.

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Post #: 11
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 10:52:26 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		There are about 300 empty pilot slots in the save. So not sure why you would be getting the out of pilots.
[edit]
Error in count.

< Message edited by michaelm -- 8/3/2011 11:58:16 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 11:02:52 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		The error message in being reported when it can't get a pilot from a particular pool, but it then manages to get one from another.
So the message is redundant.
Seems to a case where I didn't suppress the message rather than a true 'out of pilots'.

edit
However, it does run out of pilots by end of the turn.
60+ US bomber groups showed up absorbing the spares.

< Message edited by michaelm -- 8/3/2011 12:01:19 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 12:04:19 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I probably could increase the number of pilots, but that would break any Tracker or Witpstaff access.
The DLL would need to change with all its issues that have cropped up in the past.


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Post #: 14
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 1:59:40 PM   
WLockard


Posts: 183
Joined: 11/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I probably could increase the number of pilots, but that would break any Tracker or Witpstaff access.
The DLL would need to change with all its issues that have cropped up in the past.



Increasing the number of pilots would seem to be needed sometime, might as well do it soon and let tracker and staff people deal with it.

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Post #: 15
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 2:20:42 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WLockard


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I probably could increase the number of pilots, but that would break any Tracker or Witpstaff access.
The DLL would need to change with all its issues that have cropped up in the past.



Increasing the number of pilots would seem to be needed sometime, might as well do it soon and let tracker and staff people deal with it.


+1, especially since everyone is overloading their units with pilots.

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Post #: 16
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 3:05:35 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		We doubled the number of slots from WITP ... from roughly 32,000 to 64,000 ... in the early game the total number of pilot slots used in AE is probably less than WITP, but over time it clearly increases.

If we add more slots, this will only apply to newly started games and as Michael says would break some of the third party tool, some of which may no longer be supported (I'm not sure - maybe they all are).

If we add more slots, we should probably go crazy and add maybe four more bits to go up to roughly 1,024,000 ... a number of internal accumulators might need to be adjusted and maybe some screen items. But an increase like this should at least ensure that stock games which run out of pilot slots would be rare.



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Post #: 17
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 4:20:56 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

We doubled the number of slots from WITP ... from roughly 32,000 to 64,000 ... in the early game the total number of pilot slots used in AE is probably less than WITP, but over time it clearly increases.

If we add more slots, this will only apply to newly started games and as Michael says would break some of the third party tool, some of which may no longer be supported (I'm not sure - maybe they all are).

If we add more slots, we should probably go crazy and add maybe four more bits to go up to roughly 1,024,000 ... a number of internal accumulators might need to be adjusted and maybe some screen items. But an increase like this should at least ensure that stock games which run out of pilot slots would be rare.




In real life, I discovered that the Japanese had about 12,000 pilots "trained" as Kamikaze pilots at the time of the Japanese surrender. With that thought in mind, I build up a large pool of obsolete a/c and started an intensive kami training program by training in "low naval" up to 61. By the summer of 45 there are so many Japanese training units that it is quite easy to get 100-150 pilots per week graduating at that level by summer. By pushing this program with every training unit, I was only able to get to about 5000 "trained" kami pilots before this slot problem occurred.

So I think that there is historical justification for at least doubling the number of pilot slots. It's certainly not something you need during the bulk of the game, but the endgame is quite different.

(and with this current limitation, I am now training the kamis to 75 and that is a really well-trained kamikaze )

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Post #: 18
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 4:25:16 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I'm not sure about WITP Staff, but the Tracker guys are quite active and and increase in the pilot pool might be only a minor change for them.

Having two DLLs (for Tracker), one for "before increase" and one for "after increase" seems manageable.

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Post #: 19
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/3/2011 11:03:15 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

We doubled the number of slots from WITP ... from roughly 32,000 to 64,000 ... in the early game the total number of pilot slots used in AE is probably less than WITP, but over time it clearly increases.

If we add more slots, this will only apply to newly started games and as Michael says would break some of the third party tool, some of which may no longer be supported (I'm not sure - maybe they all are).

If we add more slots, we should probably go crazy and add maybe four more bits to go up to roughly 1,024,000 ... a number of internal accumulators might need to be adjusted and maybe some screen items. But an increase like this should at least ensure that stock games which run out of pilot slots would be rare.




I certainly think this would be the right course of action. Increasing the pilot slots to 1 million together with the associated necessary work would be an excellent narrative for a new official patch which would also incorporate all the beta work.

Yes it would be a pity if some third party utilities were to be broken. That however is not a valid concern. The primary concern must always be the officially supported product. The population which is able to, or want to use third party software is only a subset of the population which has bought and plays the game.

With 1 million pilot slots, there really would be no excuse for players to complain they ran out of pilots. So many slots would mean each existing airframe in every air unit would have much more than 100 waiting pilots to step in. That degree of pilot hoarding is very poor allocation of assets.

Alfred

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Post #: 20
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 1:19:55 AM   
Zeta16


Posts: 1199
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Columbus. Ohio
Status: offline 		It would be better to have a lot more pilots spots than to run out in 44 and lose half of your good pilots to this, if it means that a 3rd party app is broken so be it. I would guess that less than 5% of the AE populations uses these things. I havbe already had several games hurt by the slot limit, and many more in WiTP as well.

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Post #: 21
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 1:27:52 AM   
CaptDave

 

Posts: 659
Joined: 6/21/2002
From: Federal Way, WA
Status: offline 		FWIW, I believe WitPStaff is an official product that accompanies the release.  Also, you might be surprised at the number of people using Tracker.

Your points are correct, but I wouldn't so simply discount the other products.  Cooperation with their publishers definitely is in order.

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Post #: 22
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 4:42:51 AM   
seii taishôgun


Posts: 30
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		Hi jwilkerson,

Do you or someone on your team have any feel for when this upgrade might come to be? I ask only because I've literally just sent turn 1 to my opponent for Scenario 2 of AE.

I still have the original first turn prior to sending it to my opponent so I could probably convince him to wait if this is something you expect to happen within a month or so...


Thanks,

ST

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Post #: 23
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 8:26:37 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

If we add more slots, this will only apply to newly started games and as Michael says would break some of the third party tool, some of which may no longer be supported (I'm not sure - maybe they all are).



That degree of pilot hoarding is very poor allocation of assets.

Alfred

Tracker is supported and we're going to do a new release sometime down the track ... adding to the array is no biggie for us ... just the *.dll issue for the user is of concern.

Micheal are there any memory issues with the save being the size it is for users with less ram etc?

1m pilots - great no more complaints, but what about getting the job done with the assets you've been given?
Instead of making every group (even in backwaters) and pool brimming with redundancy. There is something to be said for managing your forces, logistics and assets - and is a large part of the game ! ... In the past thread I advocated a small increase - 1M is just ridiculous.

Just my 2c

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Post #: 24
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 6:00:15 PM   
hunchback77

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 5/13/2002
From: Whitby, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		I agree with Damian, 1 million pilots is ridiculous. Hording planes and pilots in the backwaters is not how wars are fought. If the USA fought WW2 like that they would still be on North America with 10 million planes and pilots and an unconquered Germany and Japan. When they started getting heavy bomber loses over Germany, they didn't run back to North America and hoard their B-17's and crews, they kept going.
I think we are pretty close to a good pilot limit and any more increasing beyond say 80,000 or 90,000 and we're turning AE into fantasy game.Players who like to hoard should be punished and a reasonable pilot limit is a good way to do it.

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Post #: 25
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 6:52:00 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I think you guys are missing the point. I think that Joe is saying that from a programming standpoint it is just as easy to increase by 4 bits as by 1 bit. The 1 bit would double it, the 4 bits would bring it to a about a million possible pilots. No matter the mod, the length of game, the bad habits of any player, that should always be enough slots. He's not advocating poor resource management, he's advocating doing a fix once and never having to do it again. As it affects 3rd party stuff like Tracker, "doing it once" is even more attractive.

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Post #: 26
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 6:55:49 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		For a GC if I'm doing my sums correctly, the game will make available in excess of 200,000 pilots. That's just from memory here that IJ gets ~ 1000 pilots/month and Allies get ~3000/month for 53 months. Doesn't include pilots already in air groups or those scheduled to arrive later.

Just from that math, I would go with 524,288 pilot limit as a minimum (even bit number). Given some mods might start earlier/ run longer and/or have higher pilot addition rates (like Scen 2), I beleive jwilkerson and Michael are correct that 1,048,576 limit might be most appropriate if we make any change.

As agonizing as that number is, the game arrays do need to support the features that are built in.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 8/4/2011 8:57:20 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 6:56:27 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I think you guys are missing the point. I think that Joe is saying that from a programming standpoint it is just as easy to increase by 4 bits as by 1 bit. The 1 bit would double it, the 4 bits would bring it to a about a million possible pilots. No matter the mod, the length of game, the bad habits of any player, that should always be enough slots. He's not advocating poor resource management, he's advocating doing a fix once and never having to do it again. As it affects 3rd party stuff like Tracker, "doing it once" is even more attractive.

+1

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Pax

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Post #: 28
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 8:07:05 PM   
House Stark

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 4/30/2011
Status: offline 		For the people saying that 1,000,000+ pilot slots will lead to pilot and plane "hoarding" in backwaters: I got the impression that the problem was that people couldn't maintain frontline squadrons and training squadrons for the planes they had. Which is ridiculous-you're not going to send undertrained pilots into battle if you have too, nor should you suddenly be unable to have replacements for front line units training for some weird mystical reason. For better or worse, on map training is almost always required in this game, so there will always be some squadrons remaining in backwater regions.

The only possible problems with a massive increase in the pilot array seem to be that it could cause a jump in RAM requirements, and that some 3rd party programs might not be regularly updated and would become unusable for a time or potentially forever.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 29
RE: Out of pilot slots - 8/4/2011 10:40:29 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: House Stark

For the people saying that 1,000,000+ pilot slots will lead to pilot and plane "hoarding" in backwaters: I got the impression that the problem was that people couldn't maintain frontline squadrons and training squadrons for the planes they had. Which is ridiculous-you're not going to send undertrained pilots into battle if you have too, nor should you suddenly be unable to have replacements for front line units training for some weird mystical reason. For better or worse, on map training is almost always required in this game, so there will always be some squadrons remaining in backwater regions.

The only possible problems with a massive increase in the pilot array seem to be that it could cause a jump in RAM requirements, and that some 3rd party programs might not be regularly updated and would become unusable for a time or potentially forever.



Actually it is stronger than that. I have not counted lately, but the Japanese get over fifty training units (with 30-90 pilots each) that can ONLY train pilots.

(in reply to House Stark)
Post #: 30
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