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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 2:32:03 PM   
oldman45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Just walked to school to pick-up my boys and had several ideas:

How about--thinking on justification on a stronger Allied response/presence on Dec 7th--their is now slow expansion of the China War like what happened IRL. Going along Blackhorse's idea the Japanese Army is corralled and restrained until fall-1939/early-1940 when it launches a brutal FULL SCALE assault into China. A million men deploy and attack with utter ruthlessness. Hitler is active in Europe with war there. The Japanese offensive carries through 1940 and PICKS UP STEAM in 1941. The Allies must respond and do something. Couple this with the historical occupation of Indochina and one could see real pressure for action.

The Allies make as much of a stopgap adjustment as they can before the hammer falls Dec 7th:

A. Old ships (S-Boats for example) are pressed into service.
B. Roosevelt does NOT force the deployment of the 3 Idaho's and their support ships from Pearl Harbor to the East Coast.

If the French Battleships are in the Atlantic, there is no reason for the Idaho's to go there for convoy escort.

C. Churchill sends more then can be spared from GB.

I am sounding like a broken record now with the French in the Med and Atlantic some extra RN ships can come to Singer.

D. ABDA begins to take shape PRIOR to the war. Why not have the ships better organized? Marblehead and her 4 DD could be in Singapore...

You could also send the Marblehead to the US like you suggested and use a French cruiser(s) with their large DD's.

E. Read anything listed in my previous Post as here...

Additionally, why not pull all the Omaha's to the West Coast and have them started on their Conversion to CLAA. They move into the reinforcement cue instead of having to move them there and actually start the conversion. Replace Marblehead with a modern CA or add a friend to USS Boise.

How about that?




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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 4:13:27 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		YEA!

I need about 10 hours of uninterrupted writing and research time for this. Ain't gonna happen today but I'll see what can be done.

Can someone check out what French Ships COULD come over based on the weblink Posted earlier?

Oldman: You hit the reasoning on not sending the Idaho's to the Atlantic quite well! Like it.


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Post #: 152
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 4:57:36 PM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		So does French Indo-china stay in allied hands or does it go to the Japanese?  I have no idea what ships could of came to the Pacific, so I'll let someone else look at that. One third or even one fourth of the french fleet in the Pacific is big.  I think it would seem more logical to have 2 or so French BBs close to the French colonys than the Idahos.  I did find a site for French AC.

http://www.century-of-flight.net/new%20site/frames2/WW2%20french%20aircraft_frame.htm

doc


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Post #: 153
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 6:25:31 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		What about starting with 50% on Indochina grabbed? Isn't that what the Japanese did to start with and then simply TOOK the rest?


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Post #: 154
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 6:31:24 PM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		Here is another link that might be more helpful. Its lists the units and their make up.

Fleet Locations 1940

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Post #: 155
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 7:20:07 PM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		French Pacific Fleet 1941


Richelieu Flag ship 1942 when it comes out of the US Yards.

2nd Cruiser Division - heavy cruisers DUQUESNE (Flag, Vice Amiral R E Godfroy, CV G E Besineau), SUFFREN (CV R J M Dillard), TOURVILLE (CV A J A Marloy), light cruiser DUGUAY TROUIN (CV J M C Trolley de Prevaux, CF P B J Benac from 10 Oct)

3rd Destroyer Division – LE FORTUNÉ (CC J E L Serres)

9th Destroyer Division - BASQUE (CC Y G M Caron), FORBIN (CC R C M Catellier)

2nd Large Destroyer Division - LÉOPARD (CF C A Loisel)

11th Large Destroyer Division - ÉPERVIER (CF J J G Bros)

Sloop - LASSIGNY (CC A P M Robillard)

Sloop - AMIRAL CHARNER (CF F M Faye)

Sloop - MARNE

Sloop - DUMONT D'URVILLE (CF P G Toussaint de Quieverecourt)

3rd Submarine Division - ACHÉRON (CC J J M Alliou), ACTÉON (LV J C G Clavieres), PROTÉE (CC J M L J Garreau)

10th Submarine Division - ESPADON (CC CF Sevellec), PHOQUE (Leader, CC J F M A P Laguarigue) DAUPHIN (LV B J J Petit)

Armed merchant cruisers - BARFLEUR (CF H J B Gizard), QUERCY (CF R Seriot), ÉSTEREL (CF M M M P Noel) ARAMIS

Maybe.....

Battleship - LORRAINE (CV M L M Rey)


We would need to add an AS, I assume they had one or do a conversion. Of course we could send more of the boats to the IO/Pacific, not like there is a great need for subs in the Atlantic. Also the game already has some French ships included. We would just have to adjust for those ships that did not sit in port till 43 to get their up grades and join the FF. They could go to the US yards anytime and head east or west. My guess would be they would use Colombo or Madagascar as a port or Indochina if its in play.







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Post #: 156
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 8:55:26 PM   
Herrbear


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Status: offline 		You might want to look at this site for French ship information as well

http://lemairesoft.sytes.net:1944/pages/page.aspx?UnivID=7205&langue=en

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Post #: 157
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 9:46:06 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		The easiest answer here is to go along with the suggestion that the French make it possible for the British to redeploy and augment Force Z. How about pulling from Force H and grab a fast BB, modern CA or CL, and a Division of 4 DD? This would be a potent addition to the Allied Forces on Dec 7th without having to create new art, new ships, etc...

We could go the French was with a small, comparable squadron deployed but going all British might be easier. Opinions?

I am not entirely sure about Indochina. What do people think there?


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Post #: 158
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 10:43:33 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		On the OTHER hand, has anyone ever created the French Fleet in game terms?


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Post #: 159
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/20/2011 10:52:25 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Not all of it, no. But I propose we follow your other idea, that the MN takes over (in part) from the RN in the Med.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 12:12:29 AM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		A lot of the art is here.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2682969

It would be logistically easier if the Brits reinforce instead of the French coming. But the French do have some nice escorts and can add some French subs.

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Post #: 161
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 12:20:29 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		No subtenders, though...

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 12:25:06 AM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		There are enough in the game, we can loan them one

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Post #: 163
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 12:42:06 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		If we consider deploying additional RN heavy units, we also need to consider the German and Italian surface fleets. The Bismarck may be gone, but the Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Hipper, Eugen, Scheer and Lützow are still there, along with whatever units of the RM can be arsed to leave port. Those all have to be kept an eye on.

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Post #: 164
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 1:00:42 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		That old B&W movie of the French Fleet is COOL. Like the ship art as well.

Terminus: Weren't you the one saying that having French available in the Atlantic would FREE UP British Heavy Ships?!! If they get Strasbourg and Dunkerque then why can't the Brits send over a Fast BB/BC? Same goes for cruiser and DDs. Probably would feel like a prater answered to the Brits.

Here is my proposal:
1. Add a Fast BC to Force Z, perhaps a Dido for AA, and 4 more 1st Class DDs.

...and to placate the FRENCH...

2. Add a small squadron of a CA, CL, and 3-4 DD in the New Caledonia area. La Triomphant can be added to the squadron.

Certainly would add some spice to the Pacific!


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 8/21/2011 1:01:15 AM >

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Post #: 165
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 1:07:23 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		I DID say that, but it's still worth considering what we send.

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Post #: 166
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 1:20:16 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		How about Renown? She was a good, fast ship. Warspite would be another excellent choice.

What do people think/want?


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Post #: 167
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 1:20:56 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Just brought back the Thread Posted above by Oldman.


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Post #: 168
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 1:27:18 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		I think we should start by allowing Indomitable to come to the party. No Caribbean grounding.

After that, Renown, Belfast (she gets rebuilt more quickly), and four K-class destroyers. After that, we assume that all the DD's in refit at Singers are available. PoW and Repulse deployed with almost no destroyer support, so it's not unrealistic to prioritize that.

This gives a Force Z like this:

Prince of Wales
Repulse
Renown
Indomitable
Belfast
Jupiter
Electra
Encounter
Express
Stronghold
Kelvin
Kimberley
Kingston
Kipling


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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 1:32:51 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Nice. This is Christmas. Who votes for which ship? The scores starts now!


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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 1:54:29 AM   
House Stark

 

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Status: offline 		I like the idea of a few more British reinforcements to force Z-maybe the list Terminus proposed. Maybe a few more French ships to give Le Triomphant some company. As for the rest of the French ships, maybe they should come after the Mediterranean opens/Italy invaded in 1943. If their task was mainly guarding the Med against the RM, than that will be mostly finished at this time. The other argument of course, is that would the French want to trust the British to protect their Indochina colonies (with France running rather short on terrain after the fall of their country, it seems plausible that some elements in their navy might want to defend their land).

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Post #: 171
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 2:15:22 AM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		Don't forget that the Pacific Fleet will get 8 more modern DD's at start. I figure of the 20 something for the building gap, most will still end up in the Atlantic for escort duty.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 2:19:10 AM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		For the French, have 2 heavies, 2 lights cruisers in one division, 4 - 6 large DD's as escorts. There could be few colony frigates/sloops around and an AMC or 2.

Since there is nothing to do for their subs, I would send a couple of divisions to operate in the IO/western pacific.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 4:06:45 AM   
DOCUP


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Status: offline 		John if the Japanese took half of Indo-China, wouldn't that be an act of war before Dec 7th?  I like Terminus's new Force Z.  Oldmans cruiser TF is good also maybe have a fast BB in it, maybe not.  I think we should add a few of there subs too.  That would make up for the crappy US torps.  Who's to say that the British, Dutch, or even the US wouldn't offer an AS to them if asked for. 

What about some French AC?  Also just a thought some French LCU's in Indo-China.  Maybe the Foreign Legion.   If Indo-China is still in Frances hand I don't think that the British would need to start on a defenisive line above Singers.  They would have time to build it by the time Japan got there. 

Another thought add PPs to either or both sides since more units are being added and borders have changed. 

I do agree with Terminus have to think about the Germans and Italians. 

doc

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 6:25:31 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

A less stupid Omaha class, with turreted guns instead of casemates.



I do not see how to avoid Omaha's being built as designed? But

you could rebuild them by WWII - right?

There even were a few designs along those lines - see US Cruisers.

If you are willing to simply do a redesign based on the assumption some far sighted requirement
assigned someone to the task, then

1) Keep the basic hull and powerplant as was (to save money)
2) Strip out all the six inch guns
3) Mount and supermount twin 5 inch 38s fore and aft - a main battery of 8 broadside - with
AA mountings replacing the SA directors of the original ships
4) Give them 3 inch secondaries amidships - with two amidships (port and starboard)
HA directors - so for AA purposes the ships have the ability to engage four different targets -
three on either beam - and indeed three fore or aft as well - because of the side mounting
of the secondary directors.
5) Give them an air search radar - CXAM probably in 1941 - and upgrade as time permits.

Keep it simple and you have reasonable CLAAs to escort fast carriers with - and formidable
flotilla leaders for destroyers.


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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 10:19:03 AM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

What about some French AC?  Also just a thought some French LCU's in Indo-China.  Maybe the Foreign Legion.   If Indo-China is still in Frances hand I don't think that the British would need to start on a defenisive line above Singers.  They would have time to build it by the time Japan got there. 



You can use all the french units in my mod. It includes all forces historically there in dec 41 plus the planned reinforcement (not sent IRL mainly because of the british blocade).

Of course is it possible to add more units coming from Europe if we suppose that Mers el Kebir and Toulon scuttling did not occure.
I am at your disposal if you need to introduce any additionnal french units and arts.

One idea : is it possible to think about adding Madagascar on the map in this mod ? It is a good support base for a french fleet with drydock and repair yard.

< Message edited by Skyland -- 8/21/2011 10:37:17 AM >

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 2:38:54 PM   
Smeulders

 

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Status: offline 		Another idea I'm throwing out there; not sure if it's justifiable without hindsight. Would it be feasible to increase repair yards in Australia ? As it stands there is no capability to repair major damage to many BB and CV anywhere between Singapore and Pearl Harbour. Could the Allies have foreseen a longer war in which such repair facilities could be needed and a war that came close enough to Australia to make repair facilities there close enough to the front ? I know every Allied player would love to have a 40/50 shipyard at Sydney, but that's with hindsight of course.

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Post #: 177
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 2:48:45 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		There was no way the Cockatoo Yards would be expanded before the war without the RAN having capital ships. No money for it.

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Post #: 178
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 3:09:31 PM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Another idea I'm throwing out there; not sure if it's justifiable without hindsight. Would it be feasible to increase repair yards in Australia ? As it stands there is no capability to repair major damage to many BB and CV anywhere between Singapore and Pearl Harbour. Could the Allies have foreseen a longer war in which such repair facilities could be needed and a war that came close enough to Australia to make repair facilities there close enough to the front ? I know every Allied player would love to have a 40/50 shipyard at Sydney, but that's with hindsight of course.


quote:

There was no way the Cockatoo Yards would be expanded before the war without the RAN having capital ships. No money for it.


Of course, the yards were expanded during the war - Brisbane added a 250m drydock in 1944 and Sydney a 325m in 1945 - but in adding those as 'damaged' (which is the only way of doing them as proper game repair shipyards, as far as I'm aware) you're stuck with the honor system in keeping players from repairing them. You could use appropriately-tailored immobile AR+ARD pairs, I suppose...

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Post #: 179
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/21/2011 3:24:38 PM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		If we assume some far sighted thought, and the RN decides in the 30's to create a more powerful Pacific squadron we could add an AR from England. Historically there are two 50k lift floating dry docks already sitting in Singers according to Lenton. AFD 9 and 10. These are sectional and could be towed like the big docks the US built later in the war. You could move one to Sydney prior to the start of the war. The British would also send a small train if the ships would be there permanently. This would be a barracks ship (they called it something different) and other support ships.


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