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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod - 8/21/2011 6:17:29 AM   
el cid again

 

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This is very much like some of the later mods of RHS in WITP days - based on what Joe Wilkerson years before described
when he wrote (privately) "maybe someday someone will do a 'Japan enhanced scenario'" after basic historical ones were
perfected. There were conflicting demands on the forums - so we made variants to try to please every taste. These
were each based on different assumptions, and each based on calculating what resources were available - and on both sides.
Basically - we assumed a different - and interactive -run up to war. And we used a lot of 1930s ideas and designs - rather
than just 20-20 hindsight fictional designs.

My suggestion is that you look at things that are not so glamorous, but were really planned, and of strategic significance.
For example, Japan had designed a perfectly adequate escort class, and a fine fleet winesweeper able to double as an escort -
and planned to mass produce both - and to coordinate convoys and air units with a Grand Escort Command. While such a command
really was formed - it was late in the war - and never allocated realistic assets. What if pre war planning had won out over the advocates
of super battleships? [Someone - Breyer I think - that a Yamato has as much steel as 350 escorts]? Things like that might really matter -
and are not based on 20-20 hindsight - but rather a better analysis of options actually on the table.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod - 8/21/2011 7:41:43 AM   
John 3rd


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Do you have specifics on the classes you mention?


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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod - 8/21/2011 9:39:56 AM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again What if pre war planning had won out over the advocates
of super battleships? [Someone - Breyer I think - that a Yamato has as much steel as 350 escorts]? Things like that might really matter -
and are not based on 20-20 hindsight - but rather a better analysis of options actually on the table.

"Replacing Yamatos with lots of escorts" is based on nothing but 20-20 hindsight. It assumes that Japanese not only know when the war will begin but also how successfully it will begin, never mind what weapon systems will be most critical. Any radical increase in escorts of whatever at the expense of first-line warships before DEI is secured is deeply unrealistic and implausible (for this mod I plan to faciliate escort building in the lasy year before the war, by making them a part of Standard Type merchant construction program, and taking funds from there). So is construction of war emergency ships with maximally simplified design and short intended service life before the war actually begins.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod - 8/21/2011 3:10:05 PM   
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I know the focus has been on the warships, but will there be changes in the number of merchants?? I 'think' that Da Babes addresses the number of merchants available. If my memory serves me right , the Japanese had to end some of their offensives because of the need to get many ships back into hauling resources. They don't have the lift capability to be able to lift a whole army throughout the war. 

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod - 8/21/2011 7:57:10 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I know the focus has been on the warships, but will there be changes in the number of merchants?? I 'think' that Da Babes addresses the number of merchants available. If my memory serves me right , the Japanese had to end some of their offensives because of the need to get many ships back into hauling resources. They don't have the lift capability to be able to lift a whole army throughout the war. 

Yep, with reduced cargo carrying capability in the base DaBabes version, this actually might be meaningful (no point increasing the number of merchants in a stock game, the existing numbers are more than sufficient for Japan). I want the programm of Standard Type merchants construction to start in autumn of 1940, as the threat of war becomes obvious.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/21/2011 10:18:45 PM   
FatR

 

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So a rough destroyer proposal, modified for new 120/45 Type 90 and 120/55 Type 98 guns.

Modification of old DDs - execute modifications described previously, but 120/45 Type 90 replaces 127/40 Type 89. Otori-class TBs are not built. As not building any new light cruisers frees alot of extra resources, also reconstruct 12 Mutsuki-class DDs shortly before the war, replacing old gun armament with 2x2 120/45 Type 90 (one fore, one aft), 2x2 25/60, 2x1 13.2/76, 18 DCs. Accept speed reduction due to extra weight.

Building of modern DDs until Hatsuharu - as RL (23 Special Type DDs).

6 Hatsuharus - modified as DDAA, with 3x2 120/45 Type 90 in unshielded mounts, 3x3 25/60, 2x1 13.2/76, 2x3 610mm TTs with no reloads, 36 DCs.

10 Shiratsuyus - 3x2 120/45 Type 90 in properly enclosed turrets, 2x2 25/60, 2x4 610mm TTs with reloads, 16 DCs. Size and design as RL.

10 Asashios - main armament is the same as on the previous class, the main differences are turret positioning and powerplant. Hull is smaller compared to RL, allowing to save materials and achieve greater speed (36-37 knots) with the same power.

20 Kageros - slighly bigger than Asashios, main armament is the same, but the number of depth charges on board is increased to 18. The main differences, as IRL, are lighter engine and greater cruise speed. Savings achieved by building smaller ships start to tell here, allowing to build 2 more DDs (and probably even have extra materials and money left for other projects).

37 Yugumos - design of these ships will be adjusted according to preliminary reports on the war in Europe, if not from the start, then during construction. They will be bigger and slower than Kageros (albeit smaller than RL Yugumos) due to extra armament. Moreover, more robust industry, diverting resources from cruiser construction, in addition to their smaller hull and not building extremely expensive Shimakaze, will allow to construct significantly more of them. 3x2 120/45 Type 90, 2x3 25/60, 2x1 13.2/76, 2x4 610mm TTs with reloads, 36 DCs (1 thrower and 2 racks). The number above includes 20 RL Yugumos, 12 in place of 5 light cruisers (not sure if this is not too few, even after funneling some resources into reconstructions) and 2 in place of Shimakaze. 3 more are added due to savings on hull size/streamlining of production. 7 of these are available before the war, then about 10 per year for next three war years.

Total number of 1-st class (i.e., can fire 610mm torpedoes) DDs available at the opening of hostilities: 88 (80 IRL). Total number of DDs with modern DP armament among them: 65 (basically 0 IRL, around 30 ships, if not less, had guns with limited anti-aircraft capabilities).

16 Akizukis - the size of RL Akizukis or slighly smaller, due to carrying heavier guns. Lack of expanded magazines for the fourth turret will allow to install a bigger and more powerful engine. Alternatively, just use the same 52 000 hps engine and accept the modest drop in speed. Initial armament of 3x2 120/55 Type 98, 3x3 25/60, 4x1 13.2/76, 2x4 610mm TTs with reloads, 72 DCs (2 throwers and 2 racks). Available from summer of 1942, and construction is limited by availability of the new guns.

35 (81) Matsus/Tachibanas - a slightly less bare-bones design, reflecting slightly better economical situation of Japan due to various things going better for her before and during war. The design is accepted earlier, due to Escort Command long crying for new ships, designed to be improved versions of reconstructed escort destroyers, and having designs on hand. But construction is slower, as the existing Yugumo design is more suited for realities of the war than the RL one. First ships are available in autumn of 1943. 35 are built until late spring 1945. 46 more are late-1945 and 1946 ships (going RA route and building only Matsus late in the war, if the player chooses to build anything at all), to a total of 81. About 1450 tons of standard dispacement, 2x2 120/45 Type 89, 4x3 + 6x1 25/60, 1x5 610mm TT without reloads, 60 DCs.

Note on armament: a single 25/60 mount is introduced earlier in this alternative, due to earlier demand for a free-swinging flak weapon, capable of quick aiming, but it is still not available until late 1942. 13.2 MGs (also in limited supply...) are installed instead of it on newly constructed/reconstructed DDs, as well as DDAAs.

I think, I'll talk about APDs later, together with landing ships in general.


< Message edited by FatR -- 8/22/2011 2:51:36 PM >

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/21/2011 10:20:30 PM   
Terminus


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We're not assuming the Japs having K-guns, do we?

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/21/2011 10:23:56 PM   
FatR

 

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Terminus, I'm afraid you're confusing me. If you're asking that in relation to mounting requirements for the standard Japanese Y-gun, I've just rechecked, and they did place two of them on some DDs.

< Message edited by FatR -- 8/21/2011 10:30:33 PM >

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/21/2011 11:03:15 PM   
Terminus


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Yes, but that would be four throwers in total (2 x 2 "tubes"). The K-gun is only one tube.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 12:34:32 AM   
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FatR: Like the DD development line and think it sounds pretty good. The Good guys will not, once again, start with that much more strength then IRL.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 11:17:57 AM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yes, but that would be four throwers in total (2 x 2 "tubes"). The K-gun is only one tube.

Ah, now I understand. I indeed meant 2 Type 94 throwers for four tubes and ASW rating of 4.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 11:20:31 AM   
Terminus


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With rails, that makes an ASW rating of 6, which is too much for an early-war ship.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 2:50:19 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

With rails, that makes an ASW rating of 6, which is too much for an early-war ship.

For Akizukis, that's the actual ASW armament of RL Akizuki class, which was available in approximately the same timeframe. I sold it short on the number of DCs, though, should be 72. For Yugumos yes, that a mistake.

< Message edited by FatR -- 8/22/2011 2:52:18 PM >

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 3:48:00 PM   
John 3rd


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Once done with DDs we need to move onto SS.

Think we are all agreed on the Japanese finding religion when it comes to Commerce Raiding. I think we leave the existing SS through Circles 1 & 2 but start the development of a medium SS at Circle's 3 and 4. This will provide several additional SS at start but a much more simple building program when the war is running.

Should the medium SS be a variant of the KD?


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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 5:31:44 PM   
FatR

 

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While I'm at it, how about the following take on the escort forces and subchasers?

CD-A Class (16 ships built before the war, 2 in construction). First ships laid down in 1938-39 according to the specifications created by the Escort Command, instead of Shimushu escorts and Ch-4 (and following) large subchasers, using diesel engines of same power (2600 hps) as the latter, but with the requirement of relatively high range and greater seaworthyness, so that these ships will be able to escorting resupply convoys to Mandates in case of a war (convoys from SRA obviously aren't on the table yet...). This, as well as the requirement of heavier armament, so that new ships won't be outgunned by subs, leads to serious increase in size. Their hull resembles a cross between a Ch-13 subschaser and a RL kaibokan. The design is kept simple, by pre-war standards, due to conflict between doctrines and plans developed by Escort Command with limited funding, not allowing to implement them. Armament removed from reconstructed warships is used for same reason. 800 tons of standard displacement, speed closer to 17kts, range 6000 nms, 1x1 120/45 10YT (on the bow), 1x4 13.2/76, 1x1 40mm Vickers, 18 DCs (an increase to 36 is already planned).

This class obviously replaces Ch-4 and Ch-13 large subchasers.

CD-B class (1 built before the war, 15 in construction, available throughout 1941-42). A version which production launched on merchant shipyards in parallel with Standard Type cargo ships in late 1940, as the part of the same program of ensuring the Empire's economical security in case of a war. Plagued by various flaws and delays, caused by excessive attempts to cut costs and builders' lack of experience, as well as struggles for obtaining their cut of budget until the opening of hostilities. Uses an engine comparable to Ch-13 subchasers, which proves underpowered. Results are less than impressive: 730 tons, 14 kts, range 4800 nms, 1x1 120/45 3YT (due to shortage of high-angle guns), 2x1 40mm Vickers, 1x1 76/40, 36 DCs.

CD-C class (80 available starting from autumn of 1942 and until the end of 1944). Ordered immediately after the initial success in the war becomes clear, in place of Etorofu kaibokans and Ch-28 subchasers. Replaces Etorofu, Mikura and Ch-28 classes. Derived from CD-A, as Escort Command cannot resist the lure of a ship with greater overall performance. 850 tons, 20 kts (engine is less powerful than that of Etorofu/Mikura/Ukuru, about 3400 hps, but size is smaller as well), 7000 nms, 1x1 120/45 10YT, 3x2 25/60, 2x1 13.2/76, 72 DCs.
Take note, that the aft 120mm guns aren't installed on any of the proposed escorts. That's due to doctrine, that commands escorts to engage subs by swiftly closing distance, with the intent to conclude attack by ramming. Therefore aft guns are seen as unnecessary for artillery duels with subs, and against air targets extra 25mm MGs are more effective than 120mm DP guns without real fire directors (IRL, not in the game...). If some sort of modern single-mount 76-88 AA gun will be adopted by Navy in this alternative, it can be installed in the aft position later in the war, instead of more 25/60 triples. Besides more ASW/AA weapons, extra space will be used to expand fuel tanks a bit.

CD-D and CD-E (300+ available starting from early 1943 and until the end of the war). Class CD-B finally done right. A rough equivalent in size, engine power, and capabilities to RL Types C and D, including use of turbine engines on CD-E, due to deficit of diesels, but with armament based on CD-C above, although with less AAMGs initially.

I'm postulating parallel production of two escort classes to keep a link with the reality, to a degree. Tactically, fast and more capable CD-C escorts will be intended to be able to support escort destroyers in protecting fast convoys running to the frontline, (or working in dedicated ASW patrols, when these will be adopted), while other escorts will be meant to defend shipping lanes to SRA.

Cha-1 auxilary subchasers (approximately 200 available, beginning from summer of 1942). No difference from the type in the game. Production starts on small shipyards immediately after the beginning of hostilities, to provide protection from coastal convoys and harbor defense.

Pa-1 patrol boats (approximately 300 available, beginning from early 1944). A replacement class for Cha-1 SCs, using the same engine and built on the same shipyards. Bigger and slower, with 2500 nm radius of action, and armament of 4x1 25/60 and 18 DCs.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 5:35:52 PM   
John 3rd


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Hmmmm...actual FUNCTIONAL escorts.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 6:33:18 PM   
John 3rd


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Just went through the 3rd and 4th Circle Plans as well as the 3 Supplemental Building plans of 1940/1941. These are the totals of SS authorized to be built:

I-Boats (66 Total)
05 Type-A
35 Type-B
26 Type-C

Ro-Class (52 Total)
34 Type Ro-34
18 Type Ro-100

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 10:43:44 PM   
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What was the rough number of escorts they built historically?

< Message edited by oldman45 -- 8/22/2011 10:44:01 PM >


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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 11:11:13 PM   
FatR

 

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Approximately 180 escorts and, if I counted correctly, 49 large subchasers. Note, though, that the game includes the construction queue until the end of the scenario, regardless of whether Japanese shipyards are likely to work at all in late 1945, so the number of ships for the end-war types is necessarily higher.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/22/2011 11:35:20 PM   
DOCUP


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Thats alot of ships you guys are building in this mod.

doc

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/23/2011 1:41:47 AM   
FatR

 

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Light cruisers are half that of IRL, 1-st class DDs are increased by about 10% over Scen 1. Carriers are fewer in number (but greater in quality). Only battleline and second-class DDs/light forces are significantly expanded, latter mostly for second half of the war.

< Message edited by FatR -- 8/23/2011 1:42:23 AM >

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/23/2011 1:54:46 AM   
DOCUP


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IMO giveing the Japanese a few more ships in the middle and late war should make the game more enjoyable.  But I might be wrong for I have not had a game go that far.

The better guns scare me and my STFs commanders to death.  I know I keep plugging my ideas and thoughts into the thread but Thanks for the mod and perking my interest in this area guys.

doc

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/23/2011 1:59:42 AM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Once done with DDs we need to move onto SS.

Think we are all agreed on the Japanese finding religion when it comes to Commerce Raiding. I think we leave the existing SS through Circles 1 & 2 but start the development of a medium SS at Circle's 3 and 4. This will provide several additional SS at start but a much more simple building program when the war is running.

Should the medium SS be a variant of the KD?


I believe I elaborated why a focus on commerce raiding is a hopeless endeavor for Japanese when we discussed RA. Improved doctrine and organization, as proposed in this thread by Terminus, do not change this. The primary target of the sub fleet still should be the enemy fleet, its support train, and communications to its forward bases, except in a long-term campaign of attrition. Switch to shorter-range subs, even ones supposed to operate from forward bases, sets IJN sub forces even firmer in this role (Mandates still are too far from economically crucial American sealanes, and major repairs still will not be possible outside of Home Islands, undermining attempts at a sustained sub campaign even further).

More on that tomorrow.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/23/2011 2:41:41 AM   
John 3rd


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That is what I'm saying. We settle on one design and mass produce it. Your KD creation in RA appears excellent but is somewhat costly. It is quite nice though and usable. I'd say that or do you want to work along an Ro-100 line?

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/23/2011 4:20:50 AM   
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As an AFB, my suggestion would be to use the subs as live fire targets for your up and coming coastal command.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/23/2011 5:23:21 AM   
John 3rd


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Thank You SOOOOO much for that suggestion. I'll place it in the 'files' next the desk!



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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/23/2011 3:31:42 PM   
oldman45


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You know the expression; Hi I am from the government and here to help.

< Message edited by oldman45 -- 8/23/2011 3:32:02 PM >


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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/24/2011 1:34:15 AM   
John 3rd


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Michael made the comment on the phone that it sure would be nice to have some engineering units that are restricted to Japan for base and Fort work. Not sure about that but am forwarding the request.

On a differing thought-line what about making the area from Okinawa up to Paramushiro Jima all Home Defense? Never understood why it isn't so in the game. There is probably an easy answer to this but it did cross my mind.

Serious Topic: If we assume an extra couple of years of Army/Navy development and economic investment within Manchuria and Korea, what might we see? Ideas:

1. The Anshuun Refinery and Oil Development we did in RA could be good.
2. Adding HI and LI to the region.
3. Perhaps adding several aircraft factories in other Manchurian cities beyond the historic one we have in the game.
4. Expand Port Arthur's Naval Yard and Merchant Yard OR blend into a major Naval Yard period.
5. Expand Armaments and Vehicles?

Would be nice to add some yards for Naval and Merchant ships.

Ideas?

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/24/2011 1:44:05 AM   
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So does adding AC factorys also increase the amount of RD and production of AC or engines etc?

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision? - 8/24/2011 3:05:23 AM   
oldman45


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John I think there are some hard limits that you would be up against. I am not sure that Japan could add industry, they just weren't able to do that.

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