Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB?

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Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/30/2011 10:01:28 PM

Keifer

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I've been reading several AAR's and the common theme is that the JFBs are very good at preserving the KB.

Is there an AAR where the Allies managed to smash the KB?

I'd be interested to read about the circumstances

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/30/2011 10:03:27 PM

PaxMondo

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This is for AAR's. You should have posted this in MAIN. But to answer your question, yes there are several. Stoneage lost his KB early and so did Cuttlefish. Those are two that I can recall right away. I'm sure there are more ....

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/30/2011 10:06:49 PM

Cribtop

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Loved that board game!

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/30/2011 10:32:12 PM

racndoc

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Keifer.....I had a long running AAR against StoneAge entitled "In Harm's Way" where I ambushed 4 IJN CVs off the Solomons with 4 USN CVs in 2/42. StoneAge has an AAR with his side of the story entitled "Why the Allies captitulated" and you can find both AAR's on page 5 of the AARs.

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/30/2011 10:39:42 PM

Nemo121

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In addition there are AARs where KB wasn't crushed but rendered irrelevant and the Allies launched counter-offensives in spite of KB in 1942 and 1943.

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/30/2011 11:11:19 PM

jrcar

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Defeating KB is not a pre-requiste for Allied offensive action, in fact I think as Allies it is best to avoid KB, try to be where it isn't and nibble away until you can crack through the Japanese defensive perimeter.

Cheers

Rob

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/30/2011 11:54:23 PM

Nemo121

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Aye, deception can allow you to guide KB into areas you aren't leaving you free to conduct even major offensives.

If KB isn't in an area then it is as irrelevant as if it had been sunk. Good deceptive measures can thus render it irrelevant.

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 1:29:33 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
If KB isn't in an area then it is as irrelevant as if it had been sunk. Good deceptive measures can thus render it irrelevant.

I don't believe that this is accurate. If KB exists in some capacity and is still capable of interceding during an Allied operation, then it must be accounted for.

Even if I know that KB is in-say-the Java Sea whilest I land on Guam, I need to respect the potential. In this case, it's maybe 4-5 days steaming away at top speed. That changes my operational parameters for the landing of follow-on forces, if nothing else.

A far cry from the surety of knowing that KB went down under an avalanche of bombs and torpedoes and has been wiped off of the Japanese OOB. It's not irrelevant until it's g-o-n-e.

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 4:29:02 PM

Nemo121

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quote:

Good deceptive measures can thus render it irrelevant

CAN is a rather crucial and conditional word.

E.g. I can point to many instances in my games in which deception measured DID render KB irrelevant and thus it CAN be done.

You are, of course, welcome to differ but deception has rendered KB irrelevant and thus it can be done.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 8/31/2011 4:31:46 PM >

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 4:30:47 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
If KB isn't in an area then it is as irrelevant as if it had been sunk.

I was responding to this statement which contained no such qualifiers that I could detect. This is an overstatement. Of course, you are welcome to your opinion, but I don't believe that it is accurate.

KB CAN be rendered irrelevant by all manner of circumstances. These include lack of fuel, location, effective decoy deployment, inexperienced IJN player useage, improper settings for naval combat on the KB airgroups, etc. etc. There are many player-cited instances of these actions or settings being at least as critical to the 'cracking of the KB' as deception, subterfuge and guile.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 8/31/2011 4:36:21 PM >

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 4:39:10 PM

Nemo121

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1. In your initial quote you didn't limit yourself to that statement but included the following statement which contained the crucial conditional modifying the preceding sentence ( which you've isolated and quoted out of context in your second reply ).

2. Isolating one sentence out of context and basing a response on that out of context single sentence isn't really a fair representation of my point IMO.

I believe you may not have seen that the 2nd sentence and its conditional modifier applying to the first sentence is crucial to properly understanding the first sentence. So, perhaps a simple misunderstanding.

Overall though, you are more than welcome to your point of view. It may well reflect your in-game experience. My in-game experience as represented by AARs is that KB has been rendered irrelevant on many occasions by deception operations which placed it in the wrong place at the crucial time - I'd also point out that part of placing it in the wrong place at the crucial time is ensuring your plan has a component to fix it in that place at that time. That's just a basic element of planning which I didn't think it was necessary to explain.

Of course, perhaps my assessment of the outcome of my deception and redirection operations is faulty and my assessment of their impact on my opponent is faulty and my belief that the coming together of the multi-month plan to place KB "elsewhere" at the crucial time and fixing it there rendering it irrelevant is also wrong. Personally I believe that the above chain was crucial to success but, obviously, you are more than welcome to differ in your opinion an identify different issues as being the crucial ones etc etc.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 8/31/2011 4:40:54 PM >

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 5:37:51 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

1. In your initial quote you didn't limit yourself to that statement but included the following statement which contained the crucial conditional modifying the preceding sentence ( which you've isolated and quoted out of context in your second reply ).

2. Isolating one sentence out of context and basing a response on that out of context single sentence isn't really a fair representation of my point IMO.

I believe you may not have seen that the 2nd sentence and its conditional modifier applying to the first sentence is crucial to properly understanding the first sentence. So, perhaps a simple misunderstanding.

Overall though, you are more than welcome to your point of view. It may well reflect your in-game experience. My in-game experience as represented by AARs is that KB has been rendered irrelevant on many occasions by deception operations which placed it in the wrong place at the crucial time - I'd also point out that part of placing it in the wrong place at the crucial time is ensuring your plan has a component to fix it in that place at that time. That's just a basic element of planning which I didn't think it was necessary to explain.

Of course, perhaps my assessment of the outcome of my deception and redirection operations is faulty and my assessment of their impact on my opponent is faulty and my belief that the coming together of the multi-month plan to place KB "elsewhere" at the crucial time and fixing it there rendering it irrelevant is also wrong. Personally I believe that the above chain was crucial to success but, obviously, you are more than welcome to differ in your opinion an identify different issues as being the crucial ones etc etc.

1. In paragraph construction, sentences that do not convey the meaning of the paragraph can be singled out as aberrant or misplaced for the greater meaning of the paragraph's intent. A paragraph whose meaning twists around "can"s, "maybe"s, "kindas", and "your mileage may vary" may be rendered confusing to readers when absolute statements are therein imposed. To whit:

God may exist. Some believe in a God. God is an absolute. People have different beliefs about the existence of God.

It's OK to call out this paragraph structure for the discrepancies in the third sentence, citing the relation of this sentence to the entire paragraph and the meaning of same.

Thus, I felt justified in singling out the absolute statement contained in your posting. Of course, you are welcome to your own opinion about how to construct meaningful messages devoid of contradiction, but this is my experience.

2. I saw your second sentence (and all the other sentences in your posting for that matter). I was pointing out the dichotomy of your (mostly) qualified sentences with the seemingly out of place absolute statement that I singled out.

3. Overall, you are certainly welcome to your point of view regarding the value of deception in your games as a neutralizing force for KB's existence. Personally, I would rather not rely on deception in the absence of liquidation.

In other words, I have a heirarchy for how likely KB is to interfere with an operation. From most likely to least likely, these considerations are:

A. (most likely): KB is in an unknown location and has not been decisively engaged in the game.
B. KB is in a known location, but within striking distance of the operation in question. It has not yet been decisively engaged in the game.
C. KB is in a known location, but out of striking distance of the operation in question. It has not yet been decisively engaged in the game.
D. (least likely) KB has been decisively engaged and destroyed. It's location (the bottom of the sea) has been confirmed by the tests of time and Allied SigInt.

Choice "D" is as close as I'm coming to an absolute in this game. Reliance on choices A-C is, in my opinion, fraught with peril. Of course, your mileage may vary in the games that you have played. It is my opinion that deception is a less certain factor upon which to base one's actions in the game. This all the moreso for new or inexperienced players.

For the OP: KB CAN be diminished by innumerable factors, as described above. WRT your original post-there are several instances of KB encountering chance collisions at sea, running out of fuel, inappropriate carrier air settings leading to its destruction, torpedoeings by Allied submarines and-yes-even freak occurences ("Shokaku disappears at sea and is never heard from again" being one of my favorites). It's not at all unheard of for one of the carriers to be torpedoed by an Allied sub, thus 'cracking' up the original operational six members of the group.

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 8:37:58 PM

wpurdom

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Going back to the original question, don't forget CR v. Miller, where CR narrowly beat KB, then had to replay the turn to continue the game - so he had to go on to victory in the game without victory over KB and despite a long-term deficiency in CV's (he wasn't training his pilots back then).

And herwin has caught KB a couple of times with surface forces, then went on to replay the game from before KB was crippled.

PS - I guess mental health professionals can be as bad as us lawyers about playing word games about the exact meaning of statements.

< Message edited by wpurdom -- 8/31/2011 8:40:15 PM >

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 9:18:12 PM

topeverest

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 9:37:54 PM

Nemo121

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No need for popcorn topeverest, I'm content to let Chickenboy pursue his meta-agenda in peace :-), once it has been sufficiently drawn out.

It is always interesting to see the importance of being right overarching the importance of being correct. Parsing and de-contextualisation to the point of obfuscation are the quotidian tools of that particular trade.

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 9:50:31 PM

Chickenboy

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Enjoy the popcorn if you so wish, topeverest. No meta-agenda here, but I'm pleased this is entertaining.

It's interesting to see the parsimony and off topic self-congratulatory back patting from some posters on this thread. "In addition..." seems to be the modus operandi for the forthcoming literary hijack in this thread and other threads like it.

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 10:08:36 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 8/31/2011 10:13:45 PM

DivePac88

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

No need for popcorn topeverest, I'm content to let Chickenboy pursue his meta-agenda in peace :-), once it has been sufficiently drawn out.

It is always interesting to see the importance of being right overarching the importance of being correct. Parsing and de-contextualisation to the point of obfuscation are the quotidian tools of that particular trade.

Well it is true that Light travels faster than sound, if you can't see it then you have to rely on sound.

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 9/1/2011 12:37:07 AM

topeverest

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Seriously, I'm not trying to make either of you esteemed players upset. Please accept my apologies if my comments invoked ire. I dont need V for Vendetta after me!

I've learned a great from you both and respect both arguments in this discussion. If you can entice or force the KB out of play, it is not a factor; but in most cases, resolute empire players recover fast, assuming they fall for the game. The trick is to turn the table during that time. Painting the theather and OODA loop manipulation is a strong weapon in any operational victory. And I wholeheartedly agree that inferior forces can and do win battles when better tactics are applied, especially in defensive / counter invasion pulsing. A handful of ships applied at the right moment can turn even a powerful armada away before 1945. LBA can augment an inferior CV force. and on and on.

Cheers guys...

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 9/1/2011 3:18:00 AM

bigred

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This is a current thread. allied player tracked the kb who set his kates to ASW.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2867647&mpage=2&#2896947

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RE: Is there an AAR where the US cracks the KB? - 9/1/2011 9:30:07 AM

Erkki

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Enjoy the popcorn if you so wish, topeverest. No meta-agenda here, but I'm pleased this is entertaining.

It's interesting to see the parsimony and off topic self-congratulatory back patting from some posters on this thread. "In addition..." seems to be the modus operandi for the forthcoming literary hijack in this thread and other threads like it.

I'm with Chickenboy here. Even if KB due to its position is irrelevant in the context of success or failure of a particular operation, the operation itself will likely have to be modified and restricted due to the existence of the KB anywhere on the map. And the operation itself happens ON the map, in a context, and not in a vacuum. While to an operation itself the KB might be irrelevant, for what happens elsewhere on the map when the operation kicks off and the IJN HQ realizes that the KB is way or another irrelevant, the existence and position are still far from irrelevant to, say, some major Allied hub(just for example) within strike range of 4-5 days' sail from where ever the KB is, especially if this operation the KB is irrelevant to includes the use of Allies' own heavy assets.

KB stops being a threat when its sunk, not any before. SigInt, aerial reconnaissance and search and plane sightings can and will be inaccurate, lacking or plain wrong, and sooner or later Murphy hits, and when that happens when it comes to estimating KB's possible, likely or even confirmed position, its fuel, plane, damage and ordnance situation and its reach and mobility, it'll most likely hurt you more than the Japanese.

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