Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all.

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ORIGINAL: Footslogger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all.

That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened?

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ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Having learned all of this, what would have been the ideal make up of the Luftwaffe then?

OT: I also heard that the Panther tank was designed in 1933??

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ORIGINAL: tigercub

well they did have drop tanks but they had problems with the release of the tanks and was not realy fixed until after Battle of Britain ...me109E7 was the first to have a good drop tank.

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ORIGINAL: tigercub

The idear of a long range fighter was to be the Me110 but it never was realy was a fighter (goering wanted to be)but was a great attack plane...but never could handle single engine fighters...

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ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

well they did have drop tanks but they had problems with the release of the tanks and was not realy fixed until after Battle of Britain ...me109E7 was the first to have a good drop tank.

Yes, well, they didn't have it for the battle, did they?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all.

That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened?

Hmmm, the Fw190 became operational around summer 1941. I don't think it could have been earlier but...

IF they would only have had simple drop tanks for the Me109 things would have been different.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Have you read Macksey's "Invasion"? Interesting read of an alternative history where the Germans win the BoB and invade - or rather, win by invading. A great read!

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: glvaca

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ORIGINAL: Footslogger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all.

That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened?

Hmmm, the Fw190 became operational around summer 1941. I don't think it could have been earlier but...

IF they would only have had simple drop tanks for the Me109 things would have been different.

Warspite1

May have been different. I think too little is made of the Luftwaffe's faulty tactics. The Me-109 fighters were badly utilised because it was wrongly felt that they were best employed in staying close to the bombers - thus sacrificing their speed. Just having more time over England would not have changed that; besides, all fighters had limited ammunition, and although I have no definitive data to back it up, I would be very surprised if fighters - British or German - landed without having expended their full load once battle was joined.

The Luftwaffe had the best fighter in the world in 1940 (the Spitfire I was in its early stages) and they blew it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all.

That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened?

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Germans could have had all the heavy bombers at the start of the war they wanted (well, within reason). One of the huge deciding factors in the Battle of Britain was the short range of the German fighters who simply could not remain over England for very long at all.

That is correct. Wasn't the FW190 available at the time? And had it of taken the place of the ME 109, what do you think would of happened?

Hmmm, the Fw190 became operational around summer 1941. I don't think it could have been earlier but...

IF they would only have had simple drop tanks for the Me109 things would have been different.

Warspite1

May have been different. I think too little is made of the Luftwaffe's faulty tactics. The Me-109 fighters were badly utilised because it was wrongly felt that they were best employed in staying close to the bombers - thus sacrificing their speed. Just having more time over England would not have changed that; besides, all fighters had limited ammunition, and although I have no definitive data to back it up, I would be very surprised if fighters - British or German - landed without having expended their full load once battle was joined.

The Luftwaffe had the best fighter in the world in 1940 (the Spitfire I was in its early stages) and they blew it.

Well things would have been different, but I didn't say the outcome would have
You're right, but also wrong
The Germans didn't start out with close escort, they were pressed into it during the battle when losses for the bombers mounted. But that said, I won't dispute that it was bad tactics, which the Germans never repeated as even Goring recognized it in the end.

Hmmm, wether the 109 was better than the spit or vice versa is an ongoing debate from the event itself. If the flight models and performances of the planes in IL2-sturmovik is any reference, they are very, very closely matched in speed and climb but the spit is the better turner which is offset by the engine being unable to take negative G.

Anyway, the orginal premise was that with 30m extra flying time, the 109's would have been much more effective and losses would have been lower (many planes and pilots were lost because they ran out of fuel on the way back).

Concerning ammo, it's more likely to run out of ammo if you're attacking bombers which need many hits to take down. So I'm not sure if that arguement can be used to the advantage of the Brits.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: glvaca

Just re-read the section concerning this in Galland's "The First and the Last". He's quite clear that Goring required close and rigit protection _during_ the battle as losses mounted for the bombers. Page 28.

Around 15 sec for the early spits. Lots of 303 guns with limited effectiveness. The 109's will be something in the order of 20+ sec machine gun, but IIRC only about 60 rounds per canon (2x20mm in wings).

And the British pilots actually had orders to fire on the rescue services

30min. more over the combat area would most certainly have made a difference. It is the difference between having to rush in an engagement with one eye on the fuel gauge constantly or having time to pick your fight and engage from a good position. I mean, they had, histroically 15m over target, that would have become 45m. You cannot say that is not a considerable difference. Many of the German pilot stories mention the lack of the drop tanks and how, in their mind, it would have made a difference.

Whether it would have been enough for the Germans to gain the advantage is impossible to say, obviously, their failure to keep pressure on the airfields and the radar stations are also major reasons why you Brits were able to win the battle.

So again, not saying it would have changed the outcome, but it surely would have had an influence

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, part of it is how you define "ideal". The brain trust behind the Luftwaffe never envisioned a Battle of Britain scenario. They were more concerned with defense of the homeland and at best, continental situations. Looked at through that prisim, the Luftwaffe was more than adequate to that task with one glaring exception and that was the expectation that the Me110 would be able to escort bombers and be effective against enemy fighter opposition.

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

That may have been Nazi propaganda (bombing the British out of the war), but most any reasonable person in the Luftwaffe didn't have it in mind. The Ju-88 was a replacement for the prewar bombers that were converted from fast passinger planes or courier planes that were designed to also have military uses (HE-111 and Do-17). The Ju-88 was a warplane from the start; not built with civil aviation in mind. If the Germans had been serious about a Battle of Britain scenario, drop tanks would have had a lot more attention paid to them sooner, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know a Me-109 is going to have issues in any projection of power over Britain. Of course, a lot of people were all in on the Me-110 as being the big time plane to project fighter power over enemy airspace.