RE: What is the point of HVY?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: What is the point of HVY?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: What is the point of HVY?

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 1:09:04 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

Right now there is no reason to fight as the Russian or that matter the German.
The Russians can out run and evac the German and the German cant get to anything so why bother moving east just diggin.

Pelton's tactics in these debates may be questionable but the essential point he's making is valid, and not necessarily restricted to just WITE (see also TOAW's FITE and Schwerpunkt's RGW) and bickering about Hvy vs Arm, or rail capacity, or city worth, or whatever. With 20/20 hindsight and limited incentive for any forward defense, why wouldn't any Russian player simply run east and wait? What are German players supposed to get out of a game like that?? This is a compelling strategy issue for 1941, and it does affect gameplay as a game if both players are not mutually enthusiastic about playing it with reasonable expectations for some sense of victory or at least "success" however loosely defined.

There should be some strategic incentive for the Russian player to defend the Motherland forward, which necessarily means some sort of real penalty for failing to defend historical lines. I'm hearing the v1.05 changes may be doing enough to help along these lines but maybe not. Should more penalties (perhaps artificial, ahistorical even) for Russian retreat be imposed or not?

It may be moot to argue too much, since with the 20/20 hindsight the Russian player can still avoid the historical mistakes that led to 4-5 million casualites. This is a "problem" with any 1941 Barbarossa campaign. In which case, playing 1942 or 1943 campaigns usually provides more mutual enjoyment for players and perhaps some of the community focus could shift to these later campaigns and provide us some playbalance feedback? Just a comment.

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 31

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 1:11:32 PM

ComradeP

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline

Despite the comments by some, I'm not overly impressed at all by how most Axis players are "grinding" the Soviets into a pulp, according to themselves.

Axis players probably need a reality check, namely that when your opponent has about 5 million men by the blizzard, or more, you've failed at your "grinding" attempts. Also: as the units are still in the field, because you're not pocketing them, all you've done is make the overall state of Soviet units a bit weaker, you wouldn't actually have made the Soviet army smaller in terms of units.

Many Axis players still can't seem to grasp just how much the Soviets sometimes get of something like manpower on average, or what they can get from efficiency measures/events like corps automatically disbanding.

As to heavy industry: as soon as the supply system is improved/requires more supplies, heavy industry will also be more valuable. The supply/production system certainly isn't perfect, but it's still a lot better than it was around release.

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)

Post #: 32

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 1:26:47 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As to heavy industry: as soon as the supply system is improved/requires more supplies, heavy industry will also be more valuable. The supply/production system certainly isn't perfect, but it's still a lot better than it was around release.

This is my view as well. The main problem is not with rail capacity, and not necessarily with the production system, but with the supply system.

The fact that the Sovs have more hvy than they need might simply reflect the fact that the Sovs had more hvy than they needed. I would be against artificially reducing it for gameplay purposes, although some other solution should be found.

(in reply to ComradeP)

Post #: 33

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 1:29:07 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Despite the comments by some, I'm not overly impressed at all by how most Axis players are "grinding" the Soviets into a pulp, according to themselves.

Axis players probably need a reality check, namely that when your opponent has about 5 million men by the blizzard, or more, you've failed at your "grinding" attempts. Also: as the units are still in the field, because you're not pocketing them, all you've done is make the overall state of Soviet units a bit weaker, you wouldn't actually have made the Soviet army smaller in terms of units.

Many Axis players still can't seem to grasp just how much the Soviets sometimes get of something like manpower on average, or what they can get from efficiency measures/events like corps automatically disbanding.

Pocketing before November 1941 doesn't make the Soviet army smaller in terms of units in the mid/long term. And the Red Army has far more rifle divisions than it can furnish in its order of battle. Even that "overall state" is something relative to whether the Soviet player decides to tackle and micromanageme organization and equipment distribution.

Regarding the amount of "new" manpower a Soviet player can feed into units. Having lost a 15% of Armaments production and about 33% of Manpower means, roughly, 90,000 new recruits per turn being assigned to frontline units. A blizzard offensive which costs say 180,000 men per turn is a defeat, or rather, setting the foundations for a defeat in 1942. A really successful Barbarossa is the one that inflicts twice or three that number per turn, on average from turn 1 to turn 25.

Corps/airbase disbanding are one-time shots in the arm, very as FBD/Security/LW disbanding is for the Axis later on. They might provide a buffer, but if the loss ratio is well above the replacement ratio you're losing as the Soviet. That's the reason I've been insisting on that removing the 1:1 rule might end up being a good thing for the Soviet players. Loss ratios can be better predicted and influenced, and actual outcomes of operations match better expectations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As to heavy industry: as soon as the supply system is improved/requires more supplies, heavy industry will also be more valuable. The supply/production system certainly isn't perfect, but it's still a lot better than it was around release.

That's why I evacuated some HI in my game against QB. I don't know what the future will entail.

_____________________________

(in reply to ComradeP)

Post #: 34

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 1:29:14 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Despite the comments by some, I'm not overly impressed at all by how most Axis players are "grinding" the Soviets into a pulp, according to themselves.

Axis players probably need a reality check, namely that when your opponent has about 5 million men by the blizzard, or more, you've failed at your "grinding" attempts. Also: as the units are still in the field, because you're not pocketing them, all you've done is make the overall state of Soviet units a bit weaker, you wouldn't actually have made the Soviet army smaller in terms of units.

Many Axis players still can't seem to grasp just how much the Soviets sometimes get of something like manpower on average, or what they can get from efficiency measures/events like corps automatically disbanding.

Pocketing before November 1941 doesn't make the Soviet army smaller in terms of units in the mid/long term. And the Red Army has far more rifle divisions than it can furnish in its order of battle. Even that "overall state" is something relative to whether the Soviet player decides to tackle and micromanageme organization and equipment distribution.

Regarding the amount of "new" manpower a Soviet player can feed into units. Having lost a 15% of Armaments production and about 33% of Manpower means, roughly, 90,000 new recruits per turn are assigned to frontline units. A blizzard offensive which costs say 180,000 men per turn is a defeat, or rather, setting the foundations for a defeat in 1942. A really successful Barbarossa is the one that inflicts twice or three that number per turn, on average from turn 1 to turn 25.

Corps/airbase disbanding are one-time shots in the arm, very as FBD/Security/LW disbanding is for the Axis later on. They might provide a buffer, but if the loss ratio is well above the replacement ratio you're losing as the Soviet. That's the reason I've been insisting on that removing the 1:1 rule might end up being a good thing for the Soviet players. Loss ratios can be better predicted and influenced, and actual outcomes of operations match better expectations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As to heavy industry: as soon as the supply system is improved/requires more supplies, heavy industry will also be more valuable. The supply/production system certainly isn't perfect, but it's still a lot better than it was around release.

That's why I evacuated some HI in my game against QB. I don't know what the future will entail. Some people around here seem to own a really good and reliable crystal ball.

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 10/20/2011 1:31:04 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to ComradeP)

Post #: 35

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 1:46:22 PM

ComradeP

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline

quote:

Pocketing before November 1941 doesn't make the Soviet army smaller in terms of units in the mid/long term. And the Red Army has far more rifle divisions than it can furnish in its order of battle. Even that "overall state" is something relative to whether the Soviet player decides to tackle and micromanageme organization and equipment distribution.

Regarding the amount of "new" manpower a Soviet player can feed into units. Having lost a 15% of Armaments production and about 33% of Manpower means, roughly, 90,000 new recruits per turn being assigned to frontline units. A blizzard offensive which costs say 180,000 men per turn is a defeat, or rather, setting the foundations for a defeat in 1942. A really successful Barbarossa is the one that inflicts twice or three that number per turn, on average from turn 1 to turn 25.

Corps/airbase disbanding are one-time shots in the arm, very as FBD/Security/LW disbanding is for the Axis later on. They might provide a buffer, but if the loss ratio is well above the replacement ratio you're losing as the Soviet. That's the reason I've been insisting on that removing the 1:1 rule might end up being a good thing for the Soviet players. Loss ratios can be better predicted and influenced, and actual outcomes of operations match better expectations.

Pocketing prior to November does a few things:

1) It either in theory or in practice, depending on how successful the Soviets are, lowers the amount of Guards units with maximum morale and experience you'll face in the blizzard, because the Guards cap is based on the amount of units of a certain type in play.

2) It will make the Soviets weaker overall in terms of unit quality, because the shells will need time to train.

3) Units belonging to some unit types don't come back for free.

4) (Limited to the pocketing of motorized units) You're reducing the Soviet vehicle pool much more than you'd do through combat.

Also: that figure of ~90.000 men is after the summer campaign season, it's not an average for the summer campaign season.

One time shots in the arm are still one time shots in the arm, ignoring them as the Axis by thinking the Soviets just get regular replacements and can't get manpower from efficiency measures is a bad idea.

Personally, I prefer to go for a mix of pocketing and grinding.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 10/20/2011 1:48:26 PM >

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)

Post #: 36

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 1:49:51 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
That's the reason I've been insisting on that removing the 1:1 rule might end up being a good thing for the Soviet players. Loss ratios can be better predicted and influenced, and actual outcomes of operations match better expectations.

Don't follow you here, could you pls explain? In my experience the Sovs still take massive losses if they lose, so the loss of the 1:1 rule not seem to have done them any good at all in my experience.

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)

Post #: 37

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 1:58:32 PM

Klydon

Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oskkar

Compared with the initial release of the game

a) the armament soviet multiplier has been reduced
b) the evacuation rail costs have been doubled

both of these modifications help the German cause, but they are seen by Pelton as a Soviet conspiration concocted by the soviet fanboyism of the developers.

As a consequence of those modifications, many Soviet players feel that they only can evacuate what they perceive as their most vital asset: armament points. This means that Heavy Industry has less priority. Calling it a exploit, given the path taken to arrive at this point, is a real joke. But the funny thing is that the same links that Pelton provides only weaken his position. Although most industrial production was lost, most arms production was saved. He deliberately hides this point. It was the civilian industry the one lost to the Germans (chessboard factories, rocking-chairs factories, and so on ). That is the fact. About the fate of Heavy Industry, I do not really know, BUT THE LINK HE HIMSELF PROVIDED SHOWS THAT MOST OF IT WAS LOST. Pelton very dishonestly hides this fact in his neverending rants.

Considering some of your other posts and the tone of those posts, I am going to assume that instead of being a newb to the community here, you are a multi account of a person that has experience and posts here regularly and are tired of Pelton's "rants". If you are indeed a new person, I apologize and then invite you to review a lot of the AAR's, especially the older ones that featured just about every German getting either crushed in the winter or absolutely crushed in 1942. That does not have a historical feel to it at all for a variety of reasons and attempts have been made to work on the situation.

The facts right now are that this game does not have much of a historical feel to it for either side for the vast majority of players. The Germans can advance as much as they want, but it is a hollow advance. The vast majority of Russians have absolutely no reason at all to stand and fight as they did historically to give time to evacuate industry in part because some of the industry appears to have no effect on the game at this time and in part because the remaining industry that is very important can easily be evacuated since rail cap doesn't have to be split. On top of that, there is no other geographical detail that causes significant issues for the Russians if it should fall to the Germans beyond Baku, which the Germans are not getting to. The results are predictable at this point with a enlarged Russian army kicking the crap out of a German army due to the blizzard rules. 1942, we don't know a lot yet about for version 1.05 and on paper, it has to be better than what we were seeing before with a large Russian army hunkered behind rows of level 3/4 forts and the Germans unable to do anything about it. In effect, the game lost its mobility from 1942 on and became more like a WW1 game.

If Pelton seems over the top about his case for Axis issues, he is a bit, but no more so than some of the Russian fan boy types who insist there is nothing wrong or insist on more shackles for the German side while the Russians enjoy all sorts of strategic freedoms already that the Axis can only dream about (like not having to deal with unit withdraws, unfavorable OOB changes regardless of the situation of the front, and the inability to customize support units just to name a few). For those of us who are looking for a terrific game representing the Eastern Front that provides a great gaming experience for both sides and has the correct feel of the actual campaign to a point, this game is a work in progress and while progress is being made, there remains more to be done.

(in reply to Oskkar)

Post #: 38

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 2:00:38 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

Ah! Some honest discussion here!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Pocketing prior to November does a few things:

1) It either in theory or in practice, depending on how successful the Soviets are, lowers the amount of Guards units with maximum morale and experience you'll face in the blizzard, because the Guards cap is based on the amount of units of a certain type in play.

While that's an upper bound on the number of Guards Units, I think it can be very loose. A 5% of 300 is 15, a 5% of 320 is 16. Not really much of a difference, in my opinion. What really matters is to get the most success to the most units. There are two possible ways to achieve this:

1) Maximize the number of attacks (or attack the most with the least)
2) Maximize the chances of winning involving the most units (or attack the least with the most)

1) Depends on pure chances: getting to the 1:1 odds. Which is highly sensible to leader rolls and whatever else is influencing Tactical Combat.
2) Depends on maneuver: something the player has complete control on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
2) It will make the Soviets weaker overall in terms of unit quality, because the shells will need time to train.

Soviet unit quality decays alone due to supply shortage and replacements due to extremely high losses. And damaged elements that go into the pool come back as "recruits" as far as I know. You don't want to train the shells, you want to keep the professional units edge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
3) Units belonging to some unit types don't come back for free.

Such as NKVD regiments? AT Brigades? Tank Brigades come in early September, and proper management really makes them really useable by early late September or early October. Very little pocketing, or any, is usually seen in most game between those dates.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
4) (Limited to the pocketing of motorized units) You're reducing the Soviet vehicle pool much more than you'd do through combat.

The Soviet motor pool rises like a balloon by itself. This balloon punctures itself as soon as mud hits. You can check the numbers on the spreadsheet I keep for my AAR about my game with Q-Ball.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Also: that figure of ~90.000 men is after the summer campaign season, it's not an average for the summer campaign season.

It's not much different. One thing is to generate "new recruits" - the difference between manpower pool in two consecutive turns and the number of manpower produced, and another one is what is reported in the Logistic Reports which amalgamates reinforcements from elements already in the pool.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
One time shots in the arm are still one time shots in the arm, ignoring them as the Axis by thinking the Soviets just get regular replacements and can't get manpower from efficiency measures is a bad idea.

But your thinking and planning can't become dependant on "shots in the arm". They're emergency measures. You'll be behaving in an analogous way as a drug addict: doing whatever it takes, without thinking too hard on the consequences, to get yet one more shot in the arm.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Personally, I prefer to go for a mix of pocketing and grinding.

Sure. What I say is that pocketing can be either pursued or be a consequence of grinding. I'm not saying just to either do one thing or the other :)

_____________________________

(in reply to ComradeP)

Post #: 39

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 2:03:11 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Don't follow you here, could you pls explain? In my experience the Sovs still take massive losses if they lose, so the loss of the 1:1 rule not seem to have done them any good at all in my experience.

See my comment on the two strategies to maximize Guards units (or in other words, winning).

_____________________________

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 40

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 2:23:34 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
See my comment on the two strategies to maximize Guards units (or in other words, winning).

I still don't follow you; it seems to me that you can follow the same two strategies with much more success if the 1:1 rule is in place than if it is not?

Also, you did not mention several important unit types which do not come back if pocketed, including cav, mountain, and airborne troops.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 10/20/2011 2:25:40 PM >

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)

Post #: 41

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 2:26:29 PM

ComradeP

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline

quote:

Soviet unit quality decays alone due to supply shortage and replacements due to extremely high losses. And damaged elements that go into the pool come back as "recruits" as far as I know. You don't want to train the shells, you want to keep the professional units edge.

I'm not convinced that Soviet unit quality decays so much that it will usually be worse than the quality of replacements. Checking a save from Flavio's game with James has not changed that, in fact, it has made me less convinced that grinding can normally push most units below where they would be as shells.

quote:

Such as

Cavalry and mountain divisions, both of which get morale bonuses now so their destruction is more useful than ever before. Airborne brigades also don't come back, which means 1 less Guards division to worry about later for every 2 you destroy.

quote:

The Soviet motor pool rises like a balloon by itself. This balloon punctures itself as soon as mud hits. You can check the numbers on the spreadsheet I keep for my AAR about my game with Q-Ball.

The Soviet motor pool rises like a balloon due to vehicle mobilization and unit downsizing. Tank and motorized divisions often use only 1/3 to 1/4 of the vehicles full strength Tank or Mechanized corps need, so that balloon soon pops. Whereas the reduction in the mud is temporary and due to the supply system requiring more vehicles, the reduction with corps creation is permanent.

quote:

It's not much different. One thing is to generate "new recruits" - the difference between manpower pool in two consecutive turns and the number of manpower produced, and another one is what is reported in the Logistic Reports which amalgamates reinforcements from elements already in the pool.

With proper management of armaments, the Soviets can equip 500.000 men or more in a single turn if they want to. 90.000 men is a really conservative average for the summer campaign. I might even say it's an unrealistically low estimate.

quote:

But your thinking and planning can't become dependant on "shots in the arm". They're emergency measures.

Depending on those measures is a bad idea, but you shouldn't ignore them either. You can, and in my opinion should, plan ahead for the injection in manpower you get from corps disbanding and can get from other (hard-coded) efficiency measures (mostly downsizing support squad requirements in most TOE's).

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 10/20/2011 2:28:36 PM >

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)

Post #: 42

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 2:43:49 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Considering some of your other posts and the tone of those posts, I am going to assume that instead of being a newb to the community here, you are a multi account of a person that has experience and posts here regularly and are tired of Pelton's "rants". If you are indeed a new person, I apologize and then invite you to review a lot of the AAR's, especially the older ones that featured just about every German getting either crushed in the winter or absolutely crushed in 1942. That does not have a historical feel to it at all for a variety of reasons and attempts have been made to work on the situation.

The facts right now are that this game does not have much of a historical feel to it for either side for the vast majority of players. The Germans can advance as much as they want, but it is a hollow advance. The vast majority of Russians have absolutely no reason at all to stand and fight as they did historically to give time to evacuate industry in part because some of the industry appears to have no effect on the game at this time and in part because the remaining industry that is very important can easily be evacuated since rail cap doesn't have to be split. On top of that, there is no other geographical detail that causes significant issues for the Russians if it should fall to the Germans beyond Baku, which the Germans are not getting to. The results are predictable at this point with a enlarged Russian army kicking the crap out of a German army due to the blizzard rules. 1942, we don't know a lot yet about for version 1.05 and on paper, it has to be better than what we were seeing before with a large Russian army hunkered behind rows of level 3/4 forts and the Germans unable to do anything about it. In effect, the game lost its mobility from 1942 on and became more like a WW1 game.

If Pelton seems over the top about his case for Axis issues, he is a bit, but no more so than some of the Russian fan boy types who insist there is nothing wrong or insist on more shackles for the German side while the Russians enjoy all sorts of strategic freedoms already that the Axis can only dream about (like not having to deal with unit withdraws, unfavorable OOB changes regardless of the situation of the front, and the inability to customize support units just to name a few). For those of us who are looking for a terrific game representing the Eastern Front that provides a great gaming experience for both sides and has the correct feel of the actual campaign to a point, this game is a work in progress and while progress is being made, there remains more to be done.

Excellently said.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 43

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 2:51:44 PM

Oskkar

Posts: 23
Joined: 10/18/2011
Status: offline

Klydon, you have understood nothing of my post

What I criticize is not the content of the claim, but the hollow evidence provided in support. It has nothing to do with forts, blizzard, game balance, etc

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 44

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 3:16:03 PM

Oskkar

Posts: 23
Joined: 10/18/2011
Status: offline

Klydon, the paper by Overy cited by Pelton himself as evidence that Soviet Armament industry was captured, and that leaving behind Heavy Industry is a gamey Soviet exploit, says the following:

a ) "The Soviet system was all but shattered in 1941, two-thirds of its heavy industrial capacity captured and its vast air and tank armies destroyed."

b) "...while the vast exodus of workers (an estimated 16 million) and factories (more than 2,500 major plants) from in front of the advancing Germans allowed the USSR to reconstruct its armaments economy"

(in reply to Oskkar)

Post #: 45

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 3:20:17 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I still don't follow you; it seems to me that you can follow the same two strategies with much more success if the 1:1 rule is in place than if it is not?

I need to make examples, and the best way to do that is to play out the game and describe those on an AAR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Also, you did not mention several important unit types which do not come back if pocketed, including cav, mountain, and airborne troops.

Mountain is the only one I would really care about. Cavalry can be built and it's not so easy to get trapped if you aren't forced to hold the line with it (I don't think it's their mission). And airborne also hurts, but there aren't that many of them. You get more than you need in December.

_____________________________

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 46

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 3:38:05 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Soviet unit quality decays alone due to supply shortage and replacements due to extremely high losses. And damaged elements that go into the pool come back as "recruits" as far as I know. You don't want to train the shells, you want to keep the professional units edge.

I'm not convinced that Soviet unit quality decays so much that it will usually be worse than the quality of replacements. Checking a save from Flavio's game with James has not changed that, in fact, it has made me less convinced that grinding can normally push most units below where they would be as shells.

It all depends on the morale of the units due to losing battles. Also artillery and support weapons suffer the most, since they're most of the losses incurred during retreats (the most common result of combat, by far, for the Soviets in 1941).

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Such as

Cavalry and mountain divisions, both of which get morale bonuses now so their destruction is more useful than ever before. Airborne brigades also don't come back, which means 1 less Guards division to worry about later for every 2 you destroy.

As I answered to 76mm, the only real concern are mountain units. And to be honest, they're not really a "vengeance" weapon. They're nice, but not essential. About Airborne Bdes: how many of them they're at the start? Twelve? How many do usually survive, even with pocketing? 8? People use them to build up forts, and you don't really build up right on the front line? And then, how many do you get for free in December?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

The Soviet motor pool rises like a balloon by itself. This balloon punctures itself as soon as mud hits. You can check the numbers on the spreadsheet I keep for my AAR about my game with Q-Ball.

The Soviet motor pool rises like a balloon due to vehicle mobilization and unit downsizing. Tank and motorized divisions often use only 1/3 to 1/4 of the vehicles full strength Tank or Mechanized corps need, so that balloon soon pops. Whereas the reduction in the mud is temporary and due to the supply system requiring more vehicles, the reduction with corps creation is permanent.

That's the reason why I think that getting worried about Motorized Divisions being pocketed is a bit like getting worried that when one gets out of his house a lighting might strike him. You only get Corps if you survive 1941. Before that, they're things you fancy you had available, but you haven't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

It's not much different. One thing is to generate "new recruits" - the difference between manpower pool in two consecutive turns and the number of manpower produced, and another one is what is reported in the Logistic Reports which amalgamates reinforcements from elements already in the pool.

With proper management of armaments, the Soviets can equip 500.000 men or more in a single turn if they want to. 90.000 men is a really conservative average for the summer campaign. I might even say it's an unrealistically low estimate.

I can get the exact numbers for you ComradeP. But there's a big crunch in the ability to replace losses that starts, approximately, at the beginning of September. The reasons for this are varied, and I'm not sure I know all of them. One of the most significant is that about that time you start feeling the effect of all those factories having been evacuated in the previous 10 or 12 turns.

500k men per turn is only possible for a couple turns or three, more if you spend a lot of AP disbanding Corps HQ's. And you'll have possibly gobbled completely the armaments pool (I did, because of "opening the flood gates"). A more gradualistic approach might be more intelligent in the long run. There's no point to spend more resources than strictly necessary on units which are going to be smashed or pocketed no matter what you do. You can only delay, you can't really stop the German Army.

Besides that, those "massive refits" are limited by the number of slots needing replacement in your units and Refit mechanics, which always assign the most priority to SUs replenishment. One don't have enough AP's to do simultaneously all the disbanding of HQ's, Airbases and SU's, leader appointment, Command and Control reestructuring and the occasional fort building.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

But your thinking and planning can't become dependant on "shots in the arm". They're emergency measures.

Depending on those measures is a bad idea, but you shouldn't ignore them either. You can, and in my opinion should, plan ahead for the injection in manpower you get from corps disbanding and can get from other (hard-coded) efficiency measures (mostly downsizing support squad requirements in most TOE's).

Indeed. On the topic of support squads I'm noticing - by watching the stats - that Support Squad building has cyclic nature. During two or three turns, not a Support Squad is built, then, all of a sudden, and for one or two turns, several thousand of them are built in one go. Looks to me that the hard-coded algorithm for choosing what elements to build assign to them the lowest priority. The problem is that these "spikes" might come right when it's most inconvenient.

_____________________________

(in reply to ComradeP)

Post #: 47

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 4:13:54 PM

M60A3TTS

Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
while the Russians enjoy all sorts of strategic freedoms already that the Axis can only dream about (like not having to deal with unit withdraws, unfavorable OOB changes regardless of the situation of the front, and the inability to customize support units just to name a few).

Regarding OOB changes, I'd point out one shining example that I played as Soviet in my first PBEM game. The Soviet 1941a Tank Division per TO&E on paper was meant to have enough T-34s to handle panzer divisions. I hit on the idea of making the 4th Army of the Western Front a Tank Army all its own, with 12 tank divisions and sent it to the rear to build up for 6 weeks, gaining equipment, morale and experience. I figured in time it would have more than enough strength to go toe to toe with panzers.

It was a brilliant plan, right up to the moment I realized that the current TO&E would "upgrade" soon to a new one that would reduce the T-34 strength by 90%.

Also, in 1941 the Soviet rifle division of 14k men similarly upgrades to a little over 10k, right around the time the Germans are moving on Moscow.

The point here is the Axis do not hold a monopoly on unfavorable TO&E changes.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 10/20/2011 4:20:58 PM >

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 48

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 7:32:21 PM

Klydon

Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline

You are correct that the Germans do not corner the market when it comes to undesirable ToE changes, but I would suggest that the ratios are fairly reverse of each other in that 75-80% of the German changes are not very good and that 75-80% of the Russian changes are generally for the better as the war goes along, especially when it comes to corps upgrades.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)

Post #: 49

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 7:42:58 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

And you'd rather have a fantasy game in which historic ToE changes are thrown out the window? The fact is that Sov ToE got a lot better as the war went on...

Also, while I kind of sympathize with German complaints about the Sov ability to "create their own army", I'm not convinced that it makes that big a difference, as this army is still constrained by how many tanks, guns, men, etc. the Sovs have. I expect that giving the Sovs a strictly historical OOB would give them the same overwhelming advantage, although units might appear earlier/later, in different places, etc. What real difference would it make? This is not of course an argument against giving the Germans the same ability, but in my view the overall effect is incremental.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 10/20/2011 7:47:20 PM >

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 50

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 8:47:45 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

And you'd rather have a fantasy game in which historic ToE changes are thrown out the window? The fact is that Sov ToE got a lot better as the war went on...

Also, while I kind of sympathize with German complaints about the Sov ability to "create their own army", I'm not convinced that it makes that big a difference, as this army is still constrained by how many tanks, guns, men, etc. the Sovs have. I expect that giving the Sovs a strictly historical OOB would give them the same overwhelming advantage, although units might appear earlier/later, in different places, etc. What real difference would it make? This is not of course an argument against giving the Germans the same ability, but in my view the overall effect is incremental.

German TOE changes were consequences of losses on the battlefield being unsustainable, so assets had to be diluted (tanks, guns, pioneers)

Soviet TOE changes were consequences of lessons learned. Assets were concentrated (AND plentiful). Soviet PLAYERS can OPT to avoid the early corps that are inefficient in terms of asset concentrations, and avoiding the inefficiencies that historically were REQUIRED to be made before they could be realized to be inefficient.

The point is ultimately, 76mm, that WitE makes no accommodation for delaying German asset dilution even if assets are sufficiently plentiful.

The same principles are true of the national morale levels.
It would be more interesting for play-balance if the German TOE and National Morale penalties were keyed to cumulative losses rather than arbitrarily defined by a history that will be radically different than the one we've read about.

_____________________________

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 51

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 9:04:43 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

And you'd rather have a fantasy game in which historic ToE changes are thrown out the window? The fact is that Sov ToE got a lot better as the war went on...

Also, while I kind of sympathize with German complaints about the Sov ability to "create their own army", I'm not convinced that it makes that big a difference, as this army is still constrained by how many tanks, guns, men, etc. the Sovs have. I expect that giving the Sovs a strictly historical OOB would give them the same overwhelming advantage, although units might appear earlier/later, in different places, etc. What real difference would it make? This is not of course an argument against giving the Germans the same ability, but in my view the overall effect is incremental.

German TOE changes were consequences of losses on the battlefield being unsustainable, so assets had to be diluted (tanks, guns, pioneers)

Soviet TOE changes were consequences of lessons learned. Assets were concentrated (AND plentiful). Soviet PLAYERS can OPT to avoid the early corps that are inefficient in terms of asset concentrations, and avoiding the inefficiencies that historically were REQUIRED to be made before they could be realized to be inefficient.

The point is ultimately, 76mm, that WitE makes no accommodation for delaying German asset dilution even if assets are sufficiently plentiful.

The same principles are true of the national morale levels.
It would be more interesting for play-balance if the German TOE and National Morale penalties were keyed to cumulative losses rather than arbitrarily defined by a history that will be radically different than the one we've read about.

Another point to be made about the "Create their own Red Army" advantage is to look at it this way:
Would it seriously affect the way you play the game if you were tethered to historical arrivals of artillery divisions, artillery SUs, sappers, and construction SUs (be they RR or regular)?

Maybe you'll say no, but I can't imagine that forcing this on the Soviet wouldn't give Germany a much bigger chance to hold out over the long haul to 1945.

_____________________________

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 52

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 9:10:30 PM

ComradeP

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline

Regarding the TOE discussion, keep in mind that it takes years for the actual German TOE's to downsize, whilst on the battlefield many units were, at best, at about 2/3 strength or even less as early as late 1941.

In that sense, TOE's model the reality on paper, not the reality on the battlefield. If TOE's would model the reality on the battlefield, German TOE's would start downsizing in 1942.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 10/20/2011 9:11:54 PM >

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 53

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 9:36:53 PM

Mike13z50

Posts: 344
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline

quote:

the inability to customize support units just to name a few

Did the developers ever say why the Germans can't make support units? I can understand the OOB issues (another dozen Panzer Divisions please] but seems that allowing OKH to decide it needs another dozen pioneer battalions would be a reasonable prerogative of the high command? Maybe it is because the germans are allowed to attach at the divisional level?

It seems like as the Soviets you are Stalin, but as the Germans you are just CC East Front.

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 54

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 9:55:11 PM

BletchleyGeek

Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50
It seems like as the Soviets you are Stalin, but as the Germans you are just CC East Front.

The irony is that CC East Front eventually beame the guy with the ironic moustache himself.

_____________________________

(in reply to Mike13z50)

Post #: 55

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/20/2011 10:23:25 PM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's a tester game, so there's no public AAR. All I can say is: learn to cleave. There's some decent examples of cleaving in BG's game by Q-ball, though.

I have been trying to cleave in my gc against Fiva ( old dog vs young pup AAR) and would be grateful for your views on the adequacy of my efforts and how they could be improved

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 56

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/21/2011 4:49:28 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

Would it seriously affect the way you play the game if you were tethered to historical arrivals of artillery divisions, artillery SUs, sappers, and construction SUs (be they RR or regular)?

Of course it is impossible to say, but I am not sure how much it would affect gameplay, it would simply force the Sov player to be more efficient about their allocation. Currently I have wads of SUs lying around in armies in quiet parts of the front that I would reallocate if I really felt a pinch.

The only big issue I think is that it might make it harder to replace divs lost in pockets, but even this is not necessarily the case, because presumably the historic reinforcement schedule would provide a steady stream of replacement units.

I can't say that I've really focused on this issue, but so far I think that while it is incrementally useful it is hardly a decisive advantage.

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 57

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/23/2011 3:10:06 PM

bwheatley

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: stone10

I think that will encourage the German player going mad for industry rather than pocketing.

Pocketing is not possible because of the exploit.

Russian players simply evac and run in the south, then reenforse Moscow to Leningrad. They can also evac Leningrad faster then you can get to it so losing it means nothing. The manpower hit is meanless at this time in game.

So pocketing units is next to impossible vs a normal russian player.

Follow the 1.05 AAR's every russian player is using this exploit to death and are more then proud to jump up and down about it.

Basicly at this point getting to even 3 million dead russians is very hard because they can leave 75% of the front open. They can retreat much much faster then railheads can get close to there retreats to east.

I was pocketing 12 to 15 units a turn vs Flaviusx in south and he figured what was the point of losing troops and just ran east. I can't blame him why fight? all his armerment points were evaced so he just marched east.

Over 60% of the front became dead after turn 10.

Pelton

I have to take issue with your choice of words. I could be reading it wrong because the spelling sometimes makes it hard for me to understand what you're trying to say.

So what are you saying is an exploit? (definition - An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.) If the dev's were faithful to the soviet unions production capabilities then how is this a design flaw?

Now before someone throws out i'm a blah blah fan boy whatever nonsense. I've pushed for changes to winter to help germany as well as pushing for changes that help the soviets. Because in the end a balanced (as much as historically possible on june 1941) game helps everyone in the long run.

I'd still like to see germany get more production controls similar to the japs in witp:ae. But calling HI an exploit is just being inflammatory or showing ignorance.

_____________________________

-Alpha Tester Carrier Force
-Beta Tester ATG
- Mod Maintainer (past) for ATG's WAW mod
- Mod Maintainer (past) for ATG's GPW mod
-Beta Tester WITE
-Alpha Tester WITW
-Alpha Tester WITE2
-Alpha Tester Wif
-Beta Tester Command

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 58

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/23/2011 3:14:45 PM

bwheatley

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vlcz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oskkar
..That is the fact. About the fate of Heavy Industry, I do not really know, BUT THE LINK HE HIMSELF PROVIDED SHOWS THAT MOST OF IT WAS LOST. Pelton very dishonestly hides this fact in his neverending rants.

We can think anyway about Pelton ,you , me or Genghis Khan, but it is NOT sound design that the loss of 100 HVY industry , means NOTHING...Other than as soviet I can use a MILLION rail points in something useful instead

Is the map that is laid out historically accurate? If so then i'm ok with it. Read absolute war it details about the soviets and them moving out their armaments factories. You didn't see them evacuating things that were non-essential. To assume that 100% of the HI in the russian economy was essential is a pretty big leap. The germans have to focus on killing soviet units. Factory destruction is going to be proven to be a waste of peoples focus in my opinion. If we want to have an alternate scenario where factory destruction could well be a valid german tactic lets put a team together to build the new custom scenario. Then we can put all this stuff to bed.

I would love to make a scenario where the germans could actually win but it's not going to be in the GC provided by 2by3.

_____________________________

(in reply to vlcz)

Post #: 59

RE: What is the point of HVY? - 10/23/2011 3:17:18 PM

bwheatley

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The reason armament factories are in vogue is because most Axis players haven't figured out the stuff that my opponent James has. When they do, they'll be lot more scary. He doesn't chase factories. He grinds the Red Army. And I mean grind, not pocket.

I completely endorse this.

Pocketing for the sake of pocketing doesn't mean a damn until the Soviets don't get the units rebuilt for free (or one pockets 1/3 of the Red Army in one go). Cadres can be managed, they're a complete non-issue from the organizational perspective if the Soviet player micromanages properly Refit and TOE levels. I would even go as far as saying it even slows the Axis and blunts their operational edge. Cleaving, as in smashing good Soviet formations in a consistent while also pursuing consistently clearly set out objectives is the way to go. Pockets will eventually come down on Axis players as a ripe fruit does from a tree.

The only point i'd make is that it does do a damn thing because we're sucking up soviet manpower points. But I agree finding and smashing the few tough soviet units they have will really help you in the long run.

_____________________________

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)

Post #: 60