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Task force speed - 11/4/2011 9:39:52 PM

dorjun driver

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FTFM: 6.2.3 TASK FORCE SPEED ...The TF speed in hexes is equal to the slowest ship�s speed in knots times number of hours in a pulse (12) and then divided by number of miles in a hex (40), and is rounded up or down based on the computer�s calculations.

Everything makes perfect sense until the emboldened portion of the sentence, then my head assplodes. Are we talking �rounded� in the �normal� sense? To wit, [n,n.5) = n and [n.5,n+1] = n+1?

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RE: Task force speed - 11/4/2011 10:20:57 PM

crsutton

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Thanks, now my head hurts.

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Post #: 2

RE: Task force speed - 11/4/2011 10:31:26 PM

Treetop64

Posts: 926
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From: 519 Redwood City - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
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Say that the slowest ship in a TF cruises at 10 kts:

h=(10*12)/40
h=120/40
h=3

Slowest ship here cruises at 11 kts:

h=(11*12)/40
h=132/40
h=3.3
h=3

< Message edited by Treetop64 -- 11/4/2011 10:41:42 PM >

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RE: Task force speed - 11/4/2011 10:40:44 PM

dorjun driver

Posts: 641
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From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

Simple enough.

Say that the slowest ship in a TF cruises at 10 kts:

h=(10*12)/40
h=120/40
h=3

h=(11*12)/40
h=132/40
h=3.3
h=3

...3 is a whole number and can't be rounded, unless you're talking about to the nearest tens, which would be zero, which makes no sense....

You may be 1.00000001/2 right.

Hence the [). It's a math thing.

< Message edited by dorjun driver -- 11/4/2011 10:48:05 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Task force speed - 11/4/2011 10:43:31 PM

dorjun driver

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From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Thanks, now my head hurts.

Yeah, well mine's splattered all over my study.

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Post #: 5

RE: Task force speed - 11/4/2011 11:18:08 PM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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Ever since WITP there has been a "hitch" in TF speed that adjusts the speed over several days. A little is added or subtracted each phase, with the total of the additions and subtractions working out to zero over the period. This is to account for all the untrackable variations (wind, weather, cross currents, keel hauling, concurrent crew farting, etc). It is these "variations" and account for the "up or down" -ness or the "rounding".

And no, the exact calculation is not available.

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Post #: 6

RE: Task force speed - 11/4/2011 11:33:27 PM

dorjun driver

Posts: 641
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From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Ever since WITP there has been a "hitch" in TF speed that adjusts the speed over several days. A little is added or subtracted each phase, with the total of the additions and subtractions working out to zero over the period. This is to account for all the untrackable variations (wind, weather, cross currents, keel hauling, concurrent crew farting, etc). It is these "variations" and account for the "up or down" -ness or the "rounding".

And no, the exact calculation is not available.

I knew that. So when the proprietary algorithm gets done burning and churning, and spits out a floating point number, is the trademarked floater regurgitated as the result of the floor function, the ceiling function, or some proprietary rounding function?

If you whisper in my ear, I promise not to tell.

Just don't lick it.

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Post #: 7

RE: Task force speed - 11/4/2011 11:38:49 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dorjun driver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Ever since WITP there has been a "hitch" in TF speed that adjusts the speed over several days. A little is added or subtracted each phase, with the total of the additions and subtractions working out to zero over the period. This is to account for all the untrackable variations (wind, weather, cross currents, keel hauling, concurrent crew farting, etc). It is these "variations" and account for the "up or down" -ness or the "rounding".

And no, the exact calculation is not available.

I knew that. So when the proprietary algorithm gets done burning and churning, and spits out a floating point number, is the trademarked floater regurgitated as the result of the floor function, the ceiling function, or some proprietary rounding function?

If you whisper in my ear, I promise not to tell. Just don't lick it.

Ran into the same thing while testing for the IJ 101 Draft paper
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2933397&mpage=2�

Some people wanted me to leave it at a float ...

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Post #: 8

RE: Task force speed - 11/4/2011 11:55:59 PM

dorjun driver

Posts: 641
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Your paper and your OP are what got me started. Something just didn't add up.

And shouldn't you be using fleet tonne-miles as an indicator as to how long any vessel/TF will be occupied elsewhere? Just kidding.

I can't wait for Tracker 1.9.

I'm getting bummed having to revert to MATLAB and Mathematica and all that linear programming crap.

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Post #: 9

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 12:14:29 AM

Treetop64

Posts: 926
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From: 519 Redwood City - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
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My bad.

Had no idea that WitP "complicated" the TF speed issue as it does. Interesting...

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Post #: 10

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 8:25:53 AM

steamboateng

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Joined: 3/21/2010
From: somewhere in Massachusetts
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And as Don points out, it's even more complicated than that: snails, seaweed and lovely mermaids clinging to the hull tend to slow down a ship. IRL their bottoms are cleaned periodically (the ship's that is). Wind and currents can slow or speed up a passage. As I've noted before in these posts, I've been on ships that actually went backwards for day or two, depending on weather, wind, and currents. Anyone whose sailed the Missisippi R. or Cape Cod Canal knows what current can do. There also are other factors; propeller slip, ship's draft, and an occasional machinery casualty, which further comlicates the issue.
WitP apparently has a 'fudge factor' every now and then to take care of those variables.
(Edited for spelling)

< Message edited by steamboateng -- 11/5/2011 9:40:47 AM >

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RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 8:58:19 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
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From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dorjun driver

FTFM: 6.2.3 TASK FORCE SPEED ...The TF speed in hexes is equal to the slowest ship�s speed in knots times number of hours in a pulse (12) and then divided by number of miles in a hex (40), and is rounded up or down based on the computer�s calculations.

Everything makes perfect sense until the emboldened portion of the sentence, then my head assplodes. Are we talking �rounded� in the �normal� sense? To wit, [n,n.5) = n and [n.5,n+1] = n+1?

There seem to be at least two round-downs involved, never a round-up. First, the slowest ship's speed is calculated with a round down if it's damaged. Then the TF cruise speed is calculated with a round down based on that. For off-map movement, the result of all this is that a TF with a slowest ship speed of 10 or below has a cruise speed of 6 knots or below, and that translates to 3.3 knots for off-map movement. To avoid that, you have to designate maximum speed.

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Post #: 12

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 9:03:24 AM

dorjun driver

Posts: 641
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From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
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The Bonaire to St. Thomas beat is a bitch as well. Short but sweet. And the rum has absolutely nothing � Hey! What�s that island over...thunk. So the short answer is �no�?

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Post #: 13

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 9:32:10 AM

dorjun driver

Posts: 641
Joined: 4/20/2006
From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: dorjun driver

FTFM: 6.2.3 TASK FORCE SPEED ...The TF speed in hexes is equal to the slowest ship�s speed in knots times number of hours in a pulse (12) and then divided by number of miles in a hex (40), and is rounded up or down based on the computer�s calculations.

Everything makes perfect sense until the emboldened portion of the sentence, then my head assplodes. Are we talking �rounded� in the �normal� sense? To wit, [n,n.5) = n and [n.5,n+1] = n+1?

There seem to be at least two round-downs involved, never a round-up. First, the slowest ship's speed is calculated with a round down if it's damaged. Then the TF cruise speed is calculated with a round down based on that. For off-map movement, the result of all this is that a TF with a slowest ship speed of 10 or below has a cruise speed of 6 knots or below, and that translates to 3.3 knots for off-map movement. To avoid that, you have to designate maximum speed.

Sancta Maria! Ask a simple question and ya get a simple answer.

Pretend it�s a task force consisting of a single vessel. Perhaps the Lanikai. Going from point A to point B. A simple cruise. February 1st through March 13th, 1934.

Harry, I dare say you�ve hit the boat on the foc�sl. It�s a floor function. All the way down (not counting the turtles). How many iterations? We�ll never xxx�carrier lost�xxx

[With apologies to Edward Teller)

< Message edited by dorjun driver -- 11/5/2011 9:36:53 AM >

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RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 9:59:13 AM

steamboateng

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From: somewhere in Massachusetts
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Hanging mt rum bottles over the side to entice lovely mermaids is strictly against the rules.

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RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 10:06:33 AM

dorjun driver

Posts: 641
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From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
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quote:

ORIGINAL: steamboateng

Hanging mt rum bottles over the side to entice lovely mermaids is strictly against the rules.

An acronym for what?

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Post #: 16

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 10:47:57 AM

steamboateng

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From: somewhere in Massachusetts
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Well, I don't really know what you mean by acronym!
Mermaids are traditionally lures to the sea; and are in myth and legend historically seen as that that.
A mermaid cannot exist with landlubber folk. She knows it!
A seaman, as much as he relisheses the freedom of a clear horizon and fair weather, cannot wholly exist within her realm.
He knows that. Yet he still seeks her.........
If that's an acronym........I'm guilty of it.........
But probably, anachronism is a closer desrciption...................

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Post #: 17

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 11:44:32 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dorjun driver

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: dorjun driver

FTFM: 6.2.3 TASK FORCE SPEED ...The TF speed in hexes is equal to the slowest ship�s speed in knots times number of hours in a pulse (12) and then divided by number of miles in a hex (40), and is rounded up or down based on the computer�s calculations.

Everything makes perfect sense until the emboldened portion of the sentence, then my head assplodes. Are we talking �rounded� in the �normal� sense? To wit, [n,n.5) = n and [n.5,n+1] = n+1?

There seem to be at least two round-downs involved, never a round-up. First, the slowest ship's speed is calculated with a round down if it's damaged. Then the TF cruise speed is calculated with a round down based on that. For off-map movement, the result of all this is that a TF with a slowest ship speed of 10 or below has a cruise speed of 6 knots or below, and that translates to 3.3 knots for off-map movement. To avoid that, you have to designate maximum speed.

Sancta Maria! Ask a simple question and ya get a simple answer.

Pretend it�s a task force consisting of a single vessel. Perhaps the Lanikai. Going from point A to point B. A simple cruise. February 1st through March 13th, 1934.

Harry, I dare say you�ve hit the boat on the foc�sl. It�s a floor function. All the way down (not counting the turtles). How many iterations? We�ll never xxx�carrier lost�xxx

[With apologies to Edward Teller)

The way I discovered it was I sent a damaged BB to Cape Town for repairs--the ship's reported speed was 10 knots--and I noticed the TF was moving at 80 nautical miles a day. One of the escorts was supposed to be withdrawn in two months, and wasn't going to make it in time, so I increased the TF speed to max, which meant it moved three times as fast, took damage, and didn't have enough fuel to make Cape Town. I babied that TF until it could make CT, and cursed the programming all the way.

The conclusion is that any TF containing a ship with a cruise speed below 6.67 knots will only make 80 nm a day in off-map movement. I haven't done a survey of the merchies to see which qualify.

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RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 3:15:50 PM

dorjun driver

Posts: 641
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From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
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[/quote]

.... I haven't done a survey of the merchies to see which qualify.
[/quote]

Observation is the better part of valour.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 19

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 3:16:51 PM

dorjun driver

Posts: 641
Joined: 4/20/2006
From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
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quote:

ORIGINAL: steamboateng

Well, I don't really know what you mean by acronym!
Mermaids are traditionally lures to the sea; and are in myth and legend historically seen as that that.
A mermaid cannot exist with landlubber folk. She knows it!
A seaman, as much as he relisheses the freedom of a clear horizon and fair weather, cannot wholly exist within her realm.
He knows that. Yet he still seeks her.........
If that's an acronym........I'm guilty of it.........
But probably, anachronism is a closer desrciption...................

And I thought I knew some shanties. Yours don�t rime, but it�s easy to haul to.

(in reply to steamboateng)

Post #: 20

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 3:54:27 PM

Cap Mandrake

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quote:

concurrent crew farting

Wait...it would have to be more than concurrent. Seems to me, unless they were all pointing toward Mecca or it was some kind of crossing the Equator ritual, even a concurrent blast would likely have randomly distributed force vector directions resulting in a net vector of zero.

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Post #: 21

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 4:36:31 PM

dorjun driver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

concurrent crew farting

Wait...it would have to be more than concurrent. Seems to me, unless they were all pointing toward Mecca or it was some kind of crossing the Equator ritual, even a concurrent blast would likely have randomly distributed force vector directions resulting in a net vector of zero.

You're obviously not a golfer.

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Post #: 22

Merchies that qualify for 3.33 knots off-map - 11/5/2011 5:12:21 PM

herwin

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Dutch auxiliaries, ARDs, some AMcs, some landing vessels, a few tankers, anything sufficiently damaged that their speed is given as 11 or below.

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Post #: 23

RE: Task force speed - 11/5/2011 5:41:36 PM

Cap Mandrake

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Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dorjun driver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

concurrent crew farting

Wait...it would have to be more than concurrent. Seems to me, unless they were all pointing toward Mecca or it was some kind of crossing the Equator ritual, even a concurrent blast would likely have randomly distributed force vector directions resulting in a net vector of zero.

You're obviously not a golfer.