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Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 8:24:19 AM   
Okim


Posts: 209
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: Russian Federation
Status: offline 		Hi, first of all congrats on getting another awesome expansion, devs!

I was waiting for playing on larger maps since the first days of DW. My dream was to play a nice and interesting game of 700 stars clusters on 15x15 map with enough space between clusters and between stars within clusters. But what i saw was a huge empty space with small and over-packed spots of 20-30 stars. I understand that this is what clusters are supposed to be, but i was hoping that map size is taken into account when calculating distance between stars in clusters.

Is it OK? And if so - is there is a chance to get a new cluster map with more space between stars?
Post #: 1
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 8:31:17 AM   
Gelatinous Cube


Posts: 696
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline 		Yeah, I'm with you on this one. However, don't discount the new distances between the clusters--they are much, much larger than they look on a 15x15 Map. Early game cross-cluster invasions are just not a good option. My most recent game on a Varied Clusters 15x15 with 1400 Stars got well into its third decade before I felt comfortable thinking about expanding beyond my cluster.

(in reply to Okim)
Post #: 2
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 8:46:12 AM   
YourConscience

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		Also, where is my 30x30 option?

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)
Post #: 3
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 11:05:43 AM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		That's strange if the stars within clusters are still the same distance as before.  I play on spiral mode and the stars have been spread out across the whole galaxy, the densly packed center is now about as densley packed as the outside was previously, and the outside is literally one or two stars in a sector 

I assumed same effect would take place on all map types.


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Post #: 4
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 11:08:10 AM   
Gelatinous Cube


Posts: 696
Joined: 10/26/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

That's strange if the stars within clusters are still the same distance as before.  I play on spiral mode and the stars have been spread out across the whole galaxy, the densly packed center is now about as densley packed as the outside was previously, and the outside is literally one or two stars in a sector 

I assumed same effect would take place on all map types.



Yeah, the change does seem proportional. Also, each map type has it's own variables anyway. On cluster maps, the stars in the biggest clusters will always be very dense. In Ring maps, the "Ring" will be much more dense than the "Core" and so on.

I find the spacing on a maximum sized Spiral map to be absolutely ideal now. The difference in scale between 10x10 and 15x15 is just great.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 5
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 11:21:17 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		The increased scale (which is deceptive), gives some nice little twists to research priority. If you have AI designed ships, increasing the number of fuel cells is not an option. So to manage, things like fuel efficient reactors, fuel efficient hyper drives, dense fuel cells all becomes more important.

Now, if you just could be sure the AI uses the most fuel efficient hyper drive :)

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)
Post #: 6
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 11:23:34 AM   
Gelatinous Cube


Posts: 696
Joined: 10/26/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

The increased scale (which is deceptive), gives some nice little twists to research priority. If you have AI designed ships, increasing the number of fuel cells is not an option. So to manage, things like fuel efficient reactors, fuel efficient hyper drives, dense fuel cells all becomes more important.

Now, if you just could be sure the AI uses the most fuel efficient hyper drive :)


I tend to use auto ship design and auto research, and I did notice that it took me far longer to "Blob" out. But with all the other new things going on I was certainly not with nothing to do while I waited. Means I finally have to start designing ships, if I really want the edge!

(in reply to Bingeling)
Post #: 7
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 11:50:04 AM   
WoodMan


Posts: 1345
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Ol' Blighty
Status: offline 		I do research manually but ship design on auto.

Starting on the edge of the spiral galaxy in my Gizurean game was a real challenge.  I've never used a resupply ship in DW ever, but now I'm researching the technology for them

Good thing is the AI empires nearest to me didn't seem to suffer either, my Haakonish neighbours managed to pick up 6 colonies while I'm still on my first, I'm guessing I got a particularly difficult starting position


_____________________________

"My body may be confined to this chair, but my mind is free to explore the universe" - Stephen Hawking

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)
Post #: 8
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 11:52:03 AM   
Gelatinous Cube


Posts: 696
Joined: 10/26/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

I do research manually but ship design on auto.

Starting on the edge of the spiral galaxy in my Gizurean game was a real challenge.  I've never used a resupply ship in DW ever, but now I'm researching the technology for them

Good thing is the AI empires nearest to me didn't seem to suffer either, my Haakonish neighbours managed to pick up 6 colonies while I'm still on my first, I'm guessing I got a particularly difficult starting position



AI Ship Design, HUGE 15x15 Map, and AI's set to Hard is a sure way to be challenged. At least, it is for me. I do wonder if the difficulty setting affects the Shakturi too? They would incredibly hard with that colonial income boost, and IMO they are already pretty hard to begin with.

(in reply to WoodMan)
Post #: 9
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 12:40:43 PM   
Okim


Posts: 209
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: Russian Federation
Status: offline 		Guys you are getting a bit off-topic ;)

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)
Post #: 10
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 12:41:43 PM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		The cluster maps were my favourite in RotS but having checked out a few 15x15 maps in Legends I'm thinking that they won't be. I'm heading for spirals and... irregular. Yep, I believe they will be fun now with the additional spacing creating some texture. The clusters seem too extreme now.

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)
Post #: 11
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 2:31:50 PM   
machitis

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 1/28/2011
Status: offline 		I used to play primarily with clusters, but the larger scale is making irregular maps play fantastic.

(in reply to feelotraveller)
Post #: 12
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 4:02:10 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I'm sure we could adjust the size of each cluster based on the map scale, if that's what everyone prefers.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to machitis)
Post #: 13
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 4:21:15 PM   
w1p

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline 		Having customisable sliders for the different maps, ala star ruler, might be a good idea. eg. average stars per cluster, spacing between stars, spacing between clusters, etc. etc.

I personally think it's fine the way it is, but more choice is never a bad thing

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 14
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 7:42:15 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Okim
I was waiting for playing on larger maps since the first days of DW. My dream was to play a nice and interesting game of 700 stars clusters on 15x15 map with enough space between clusters and between stars within clusters. But what i saw was a huge empty space with small and over-packed spots of 20-30 stars. I understand that this is what clusters are supposed to be, but i was hoping that map size is taken into account when calculating distance between stars in clusters.

Is it OK? And if so - is there is a chance to get a new cluster map with more space between stars?


I think you may have hit the nail on the head; I think that is what the clusters are suppose to be. If you ever have seen globular clusters, they are very dense... but I suspect you knew that based on your words...
For your sake, I hope they make a change.
But I like the clusters as they are; I am hoping this will remain an option!


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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to Okim)
Post #: 15
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 10:14:36 PM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		Although not my flavour I can see that I will enjoy the challenges presented by clusters as they are at the moment. I think that a slider here would be very good. It is a matter of what the astrophysicists call 'clumpiness' - the distribution of the relative densities of matter.

(in reply to tjhkkr)
Post #: 16
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/25/2011 10:20:24 PM   
machitis

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 1/28/2011
Status: offline 		I think I'll do my next game in a cluster map again -- I like the idea of getting from one cluster to another being a challenge. I'm not so sure we should race to decrease the distance?

(in reply to feelotraveller)
Post #: 17
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/29/2011 12:01:59 PM   
Webbco


Posts: 682
Joined: 2/6/2010
Status: offline 		I've got a question that's (sort of) related to Cluster maps...

I've played 3 games now where other, more developed AI players are really spreading out over a number of clusters quite early on and have one or 2 colonies in each (so hhuuge expanses of space between colonies) making the map quite messy.

Either there are simply no more suitable colonisable planets in their starting cluster or there's a bug. I've turned on the editor a number of times to check other nearby systems to the AI player, and noticed that there is quite a lack of potential colonies for them, but surely there should be more than TWO potentials in a cluster?!

Has anyone else experienced this?

(in reply to machitis)
Post #: 18
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/29/2011 12:22:33 PM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		I'm really enjoying playing on 15x15 Even Clusters. Those vast expanses between the clusters make for an interesting dynamic. The remote systems that do exist between clusters become important outposts.

(in reply to Webbco)
Post #: 19
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/29/2011 1:12:56 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth
I'm really enjoying playing on 15x15 Even Clusters. Those vast expanses between the clusters make for an interesting dynamic. The remote systems that do exist between clusters become important outposts.


Oh yes, the would. They would be the scenes of some very intense fighting. You called that right!

_____________________________

Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to Cauldyth)
Post #: 20
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/29/2011 6:42:09 PM   
Locarnus


Posts: 287
Joined: 5/30/2010
From: Earth, Sol
Status: offline 		How do the ai empires economies get along with the large distances in your cluster games in 15x15.

Do their freighters have enough fuel, or are they just crawling because they have too little fuel capacity for the longer trips?

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Post #: 21
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/29/2011 9:36:43 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Locarnus
How do the ai empires economies get along with the large distances in your cluster games in 15x15.
Do their freighters have enough fuel, or are they just crawling because they have too little fuel capacity for the longer trips?


That is an excellent question...
But then something like this would likely be a military outpost, and not a civilian one.
You know a planet of strategic value like that will be toast in zero time..., along with any civilians there.
But it is an important question.

_____________________________

Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to Locarnus)
Post #: 22
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/29/2011 10:40:41 PM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		I've only expanded to fill my starting cluster, plus parts of two neighbouring ones. Those distances aren't long enough to cause serious fuel capacity problems within my empire. I haven't looked closely at my civilian ships to see if they're struggling to conduct trade with other, more far-flung empires. My economy is on par with the other larger empires, but it may be that we're all operating on a crippled civilian economy. :)

I'll take a look tonight when I get home, to see if my distant freighters are running out of fuel.

(in reply to tjhkkr)
Post #: 23
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/29/2011 10:44:14 PM   
Raap

 

Posts: 404
Joined: 1/12/2011
Status: offline 		I love the new 15x15 physical maps, but I think more customization and options in general would be good in this regard, especially as it relates to star density. Maybe also give an option to do custom physical map sizes(i.e. 5x15 and such) and larger maximums( say 30x30 max? Or even more unless it poses problems). Hopefully not too much work for something that would add a lot more variation for replays.

(in reply to tjhkkr)
Post #: 24
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/30/2011 3:24:55 PM   
Cauldyth

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth
I'll take a look tonight when I get home, to see if my distant freighters are running out of fuel.


I didn't bother looking into this. It looks like the new beta patch has fixes for freighter fuel capacity on very large maps. I've started a new game, again on Huge/Huge/Even Clusters, and will see if I notice any problems.

(in reply to Cauldyth)
Post #: 25
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/30/2011 4:25:08 PM   
w1p

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline 		freighters ARE running out of fuel, mine and AI alike, I assumed mine would refuel at ai refueling places before starting a long trip, but they don't ALWAYS (They do sometimes)

I think it's set to when at X% of fuel refuel
as opposed to
can you make this trip on current fuel = no = refuel

(in reply to Cauldyth)
Post #: 26
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/30/2011 8:00:47 PM   
tjhkkr


Posts: 2428
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline 		I think it's set to when at X% of fuel refuel
as opposed to
can you make this trip on current fuel = no = refuel

In the immortal words of Mr. Spock, flawlessly logical...
But in fairness, thing of how many lines of code this game has... It has to be a lot...
Maybe we should make it a pool... guess the number of lines of code...

_____________________________

Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to w1p)
Post #: 27
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 11/30/2011 8:50:18 PM   
w1p

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline 		Granted, but it might be something they've overlooked and are glad we mentioned, although I highly doubt it!! :)

(in reply to tjhkkr)
Post #: 28
RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 - 12/1/2011 12:36:37 AM   
BigWolfChris


Posts: 634
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: w1p

freighters ARE running out of fuel, mine and AI alike, I assumed mine would refuel at ai refueling places before starting a long trip, but they don't ALWAYS (They do sometimes)

I think it's set to when at X% of fuel refuel
as opposed to
can you make this trip on current fuel = no = refuel


If changed to this, you'd also have to add a check to see if the trip is even possible with max fuel reserves, or you'd find ships in a constant loop if trying to go beyond fuel range, and then add a circumstance to allow it in rare occasions (sometimes you'd want to prevent it, sometimes you'd want it too occur)

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Post #: 29
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