Cluster Maps on 15x15 (Full Version)

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Okim -> Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 8:24:19 AM)

Hi, first of all congrats on getting another awesome expansion, devs!

I was waiting for playing on larger maps since the first days of DW. My dream was to play a nice and interesting game of 700 stars clusters on 15x15 map with enough space between clusters and between stars within clusters. But what i saw was a huge empty space with small and over-packed spots of 20-30 stars. I understand that this is what clusters are supposed to be, but i was hoping that map size is taken into account when calculating distance between stars in clusters.

Is it OK? And if so - is there is a chance to get a new cluster map with more space between stars?



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 8:31:17 AM)

Yeah, I'm with you on this one. However, don't discount the new distances between the clusters--they are much, much larger than they look on a 15x15 Map. Early game cross-cluster invasions are just not a good option. My most recent game on a Varied Clusters 15x15 with 1400 Stars got well into its third decade before I felt comfortable thinking about expanding beyond my cluster.



YourConscience -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 8:46:12 AM)

Also, where is my 30x30 option?



WoodMan -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 11:05:43 AM)

That's strange if the stars within clusters are still the same distance as before.  I play on spiral mode and the stars have been spread out across the whole galaxy, the densly packed center is now about as densley packed as the outside was previously, and the outside is literally one or two stars in a sector [:D]

I assumed same effect would take place on all map types.



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 11:08:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

That's strange if the stars within clusters are still the same distance as before.  I play on spiral mode and the stars have been spread out across the whole galaxy, the densly packed center is now about as densley packed as the outside was previously, and the outside is literally one or two stars in a sector [:D]

I assumed same effect would take place on all map types.



Yeah, the change does seem proportional. Also, each map type has it's own variables anyway. On cluster maps, the stars in the biggest clusters will always be very dense. In Ring maps, the "Ring" will be much more dense than the "Core" and so on.

I find the spacing on a maximum sized Spiral map to be absolutely ideal now. The difference in scale between 10x10 and 15x15 is just great.



Bingeling -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 11:21:17 AM)

The increased scale (which is deceptive), gives some nice little twists to research priority. If you have AI designed ships, increasing the number of fuel cells is not an option. So to manage, things like fuel efficient reactors, fuel efficient hyper drives, dense fuel cells all becomes more important.

Now, if you just could be sure the AI uses the most fuel efficient hyper drive :)



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 11:23:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

The increased scale (which is deceptive), gives some nice little twists to research priority. If you have AI designed ships, increasing the number of fuel cells is not an option. So to manage, things like fuel efficient reactors, fuel efficient hyper drives, dense fuel cells all becomes more important.

Now, if you just could be sure the AI uses the most fuel efficient hyper drive :)


I tend to use auto ship design and auto research, and I did notice that it took me far longer to "Blob" out. But with all the other new things going on I was certainly not with nothing to do while I waited. Means I finally have to start designing ships, if I really want the edge!



WoodMan -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 11:50:04 AM)

I do research manually but ship design on auto.

Starting on the edge of the spiral galaxy in my Gizurean game was a real challenge.  I've never used a resupply ship in DW ever, but now I'm researching the technology for them [:)]

Good thing is the AI empires nearest to me didn't seem to suffer either, my Haakonish neighbours managed to pick up 6 colonies while I'm still on my first, I'm guessing I got a particularly difficult starting position [:D]



Gelatinous Cube -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 11:52:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

I do research manually but ship design on auto.

Starting on the edge of the spiral galaxy in my Gizurean game was a real challenge.  I've never used a resupply ship in DW ever, but now I'm researching the technology for them [:)]

Good thing is the AI empires nearest to me didn't seem to suffer either, my Haakonish neighbours managed to pick up 6 colonies while I'm still on my first, I'm guessing I got a particularly difficult starting position [:D]



AI Ship Design, HUGE 15x15 Map, and AI's set to Hard is a sure way to be challenged. At least, it is for me. I do wonder if the difficulty setting affects the Shakturi too? They would incredibly hard with that colonial income boost, and IMO they are already pretty hard to begin with.



Okim -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 12:40:43 PM)

Guys you are getting a bit off-topic ;)



feelotraveller -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 12:41:43 PM)

The cluster maps were my favourite in RotS but having checked out a few 15x15 maps in Legends I'm thinking that they won't be. I'm heading for spirals and... irregular. Yep, I believe they will be fun now with the additional spacing creating some texture. The clusters seem too extreme now.



machitis -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 2:31:50 PM)

I used to play primarily with clusters, but the larger scale is making irregular maps play fantastic.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 4:02:10 PM)

I'm sure we could adjust the size of each cluster based on the map scale, if that's what everyone prefers.

Regards,

- Erik



w1p -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 4:21:15 PM)

Having customisable sliders for the different maps, ala star ruler, might be a good idea. eg. average stars per cluster, spacing between stars, spacing between clusters, etc. etc.

I personally think it's fine the way it is, but more choice is never a bad thing



tjhkkr -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 7:42:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Okim
I was waiting for playing on larger maps since the first days of DW. My dream was to play a nice and interesting game of 700 stars clusters on 15x15 map with enough space between clusters and between stars within clusters. But what i saw was a huge empty space with small and over-packed spots of 20-30 stars. I understand that this is what clusters are supposed to be, but i was hoping that map size is taken into account when calculating distance between stars in clusters.

Is it OK? And if so - is there is a chance to get a new cluster map with more space between stars?


I think you may have hit the nail on the head; I think that is what the clusters are suppose to be. If you ever have seen globular clusters, they are very dense... but I suspect you knew that based on your words...
For your sake, I hope they make a change.
But I like the clusters as they are; I am hoping this will remain an option!



feelotraveller -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 10:14:36 PM)

Although not my flavour I can see that I will enjoy the challenges presented by clusters as they are at the moment. I think that a slider here would be very good. It is a matter of what the astrophysicists call 'clumpiness' - the distribution of the relative densities of matter.



machitis -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/25/2011 10:20:24 PM)

I think I'll do my next game in a cluster map again -- I like the idea of getting from one cluster to another being a challenge. I'm not so sure we should race to decrease the distance?



Webbco -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/29/2011 12:01:59 PM)

I've got a question that's (sort of) related to Cluster maps...

I've played 3 games now where other, more developed AI players are really spreading out over a number of clusters quite early on and have one or 2 colonies in each (so hhuuge expanses of space between colonies) making the map quite messy.

Either there are simply no more suitable colonisable planets in their starting cluster or there's a bug. I've turned on the editor a number of times to check other nearby systems to the AI player, and noticed that there is quite a lack of potential colonies for them, but surely there should be more than TWO potentials in a cluster?!

Has anyone else experienced this?



Cauldyth -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/29/2011 12:22:33 PM)

I'm really enjoying playing on 15x15 Even Clusters. Those vast expanses between the clusters make for an interesting dynamic. The remote systems that do exist between clusters become important outposts.



tjhkkr -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/29/2011 1:12:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth
I'm really enjoying playing on 15x15 Even Clusters. Those vast expanses between the clusters make for an interesting dynamic. The remote systems that do exist between clusters become important outposts.


Oh yes, the would. They would be the scenes of some very intense fighting. You called that right!



Locarnus -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/29/2011 6:42:09 PM)

How do the ai empires economies get along with the large distances in your cluster games in 15x15.

Do their freighters have enough fuel, or are they just crawling because they have too little fuel capacity for the longer trips?



tjhkkr -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/29/2011 9:36:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Locarnus
How do the ai empires economies get along with the large distances in your cluster games in 15x15.
Do their freighters have enough fuel, or are they just crawling because they have too little fuel capacity for the longer trips?


That is an excellent question...
But then something like this would likely be a military outpost, and not a civilian one.
You know a planet of strategic value like that will be toast in zero time..., along with any civilians there.
But it is an important question.



Cauldyth -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/29/2011 10:40:41 PM)

I've only expanded to fill my starting cluster, plus parts of two neighbouring ones. Those distances aren't long enough to cause serious fuel capacity problems within my empire. I haven't looked closely at my civilian ships to see if they're struggling to conduct trade with other, more far-flung empires. My economy is on par with the other larger empires, but it may be that we're all operating on a crippled civilian economy. :)

I'll take a look tonight when I get home, to see if my distant freighters are running out of fuel.



Raap -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/29/2011 10:44:14 PM)

I love the new 15x15 physical maps, but I think more customization and options in general would be good in this regard, especially as it relates to star density. Maybe also give an option to do custom physical map sizes(i.e. 5x15 and such) and larger maximums( say 30x30 max? Or even more unless it poses problems). Hopefully not too much work for something that would add a lot more variation for replays.



Cauldyth -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/30/2011 3:24:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth
I'll take a look tonight when I get home, to see if my distant freighters are running out of fuel.


I didn't bother looking into this. It looks like the new beta patch has fixes for freighter fuel capacity on very large maps. I've started a new game, again on Huge/Huge/Even Clusters, and will see if I notice any problems.



w1p -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/30/2011 4:25:08 PM)

freighters ARE running out of fuel, mine and AI alike, I assumed mine would refuel at ai refueling places before starting a long trip, but they don't ALWAYS (They do sometimes)

I think it's set to when at X% of fuel refuel
as opposed to
can you make this trip on current fuel = no = refuel



tjhkkr -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/30/2011 8:00:47 PM)

I think it's set to when at X% of fuel refuel
as opposed to
can you make this trip on current fuel = no = refuel

In the immortal words of Mr. Spock, flawlessly logical...
But in fairness, thing of how many lines of code this game has... It has to be a lot...
Maybe we should make it a pool... guess the number of lines of code...



w1p -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (11/30/2011 8:50:18 PM)

Granted, but it might be something they've overlooked and are glad we mentioned, although I highly doubt it!! :)



BigWolfChris -> RE: Cluster Maps on 15x15 (12/1/2011 12:36:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: w1p

freighters ARE running out of fuel, mine and AI alike, I assumed mine would refuel at ai refueling places before starting a long trip, but they don't ALWAYS (They do sometimes)

I think it's set to when at X% of fuel refuel
as opposed to
can you make this trip on current fuel = no = refuel


If changed to this, you'd also have to add a check to see if the trip is even possible with max fuel reserves, or you'd find ships in a constant loop if trying to go beyond fuel range, and then add a circumstance to allow it in rare occasions (sometimes you'd want to prevent it, sometimes you'd want it too occur)



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