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RE: North Moscow AO - 11/28/2011 11:19:24 AM

veji1

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This game is really shaping up to be fascinating : You have done very well, massively destabilising your opponent and forming a few vey big pockets. Now fighting for Moscow is going to enter a decisive phase late into the season, with the question being can you get it before the Blizzard ? and in what state will this offensive leave your army ? Your front is topsy-curvy, leaving room for him to attack during the blizzard. Basically were are going to get a proper Typhoon with all the urgency it implies. Furthermore your Blizzard inexperience makes it even more interesting as you might cock up big time, very much like the 41 Germans !

in a world, it all feels very "historical" except your uber progreess in the north.

really looking forward to Typhoon and then the winter!

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RE: North Moscow AO - 11/28/2011 1:42:05 PM

heliodorus04

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quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

This game is really shaping up to be fascinating : You have done very well, massively destabilising your opponent and forming a few vey big pockets. Now fighting for Moscow is going to enter a decisive phase late into the season, with the question being can you get it before the Blizzard ? and in what state will this offensive leave your army ? Your front is topsy-curvy, leaving room for him to attack during the blizzard. Basically were are going to get a proper Typhoon with all the urgency it implies. Furthermore your Blizzard inexperience makes it even more interesting as you might cock up big time, very much like the 41 Germans !

in a world, it all feels very "historical" except your uber progreess in the north.

really looking forward to Typhoon and then the winter!

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not sure a Moscow offensive is a tactically sound option. I don't think I can take it. If anyone has suggestions on methodology and approach to doing this, I'd love to know.

I would be encouraged to attack in mud if the mud penalty was lessened in an urban/city hex. But there's no point, unfortunately, for attacking Moscow in mud, even though I'm so close. Or am I wrong?

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Post #: 392

RE: North Moscow AO - 11/28/2011 2:25:39 PM

veji1

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I would have thought that the attack would have proceeded during snow, not mud... Ah well still interesting.

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Post #: 393

RE: North Moscow AO - 11/28/2011 2:55:44 PM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not sure a Moscow offensive is a tactically sound option. I don't think I can take it. If anyone has suggestions on methodology and approach to doing this, I'd love to know.

I would be encouraged to attack in mud if the mud penalty was lessened in an urban/city hex. But there's no point, unfortunately, for attacking Moscow in mud, even though I'm so close. Or am I wrong?

Veji1 might be right, this may result in a 1942 somewhat close to what the Germans experienced back then. The major difference of Leningrad in German hands may have a large impact, though: It allows the Finns to take over parts of the German line, freeing German troops for duty elsewhere. However, since the Soviets aren't locked in a desperate defensive struggle for Leningrad and the main land ports, this also frees a large number of their forces. In fact, since all the way to Moscow there is nothing worth fighting for a Russian in that region, and, moreover, the rail lines allow quick shuffling of troops there (for reinforcement, feinting or offensive), a Soviet player probably can withdraw a disproportionate number of units now. Perhaps starving but not taking Leningrad would serve a major purpose?

Regarding Moscow -- you could do it like the Germans had to do, attack in mud and in snow in a last ditch effort? Fortunately you don't have to -- the mud turns are gambling at best. The way things look from your maps, and latest casualty returns, it should be doable in snow if you move a lot of the Pioneer battalions, the heavy howitzers (esp. the many 210mm field-how's) and artillery to support and manage to build up fuel (MP) and ammo, perhaps by a HQ-buildup? Also, I would for a few turns pull all remaining Luftwaffe assets together.

The question is only: is it worth it? This war in the long run is only about gaining time, about keeping the initiative, i.e. later about disrupting Soviet offensives, or countering them. Simultaneously it is about inflicting casualties on the Soviets at a ratio higher than 2:1. I think you should do it if you can pocket significant forces, otherwise a frontal assault, though I believe quite doable, would perhaps not meet this "exchange rate" for direct combat losses. Besides that, taking Moscow would also inflict cheap casualties in form of manpower (times displaced days). If there were any air or armament industry left that would also be additional "cheap casualties". Even without those, however, you can destroy rail infrastructure, which is perhaps worth a lot more as it will hurt soviet strategic flexibility and reaction to your moves...
However -- similarly to Leningrad -- also as long as Moscow is intact and in Soviet hands, you might be able to bind a lot more Reds there during winter and the next year(s) than once it is taken and devastated...?

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Post #: 394

RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 6:32:15 PM

Encircled

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If you have three turns of snow, then you have to go for it.

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Post #: 395

RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 6:36:47 PM

Flaviusx

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Helio, I'd say it's even odds on Moscow.

If you take it, you have the possibility of throwing a serious monkey wrench in the big red machine and compromising their blizzard counteroffensive.

If you don't take it, you'll be very badly exposed to the same offensive.

It's a high stakes gamble, either way. So: do you feel lucky?

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Post #: 396

RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 6:44:37 PM

Baelfiin

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If you dont have Moscow pocketed first, dont attack it. Otherwise the price you pay going head to head in the urban terrain with supplied russians is too much.

*** looking at the screenshot now, I would still say pocket pocket pocket. I would move those 2nd panzer army guys to one of the flanks and go for it.. with eveyone rested for a turn or 2 and hq'ed up, two turns to seal the pocket and one turn to clean it up should be doable. of course there could be a lot more russians hiding in those trees ....... ***

< Message edited by Baelfiin -- 11/30/2011 6:56:52 PM >

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Post #: 397

RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 7:10:35 PM

ComradeP

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It's too late to pocket Moscow, considering the number of Soviets in the area. Unless you want to risk a frontal attack against the Moscow hexes, leave the city alone. Capturing the city now would in all likeliness just mean you'll lose it a few turns later.

Your intended defensive line is too close to the current front, it will fall.

Try to find some population level 3 or 4 towns and cities for your mobile units to hide in. Your current blizzard preparations are insufficient and will mean many of your mobile units lose morale for no strategic gain.

Evacuate the Ryazan salient and be ready to give up the area east of Kharkov as well.

You'll probably hold Kaluga if you play it right, but with the current dispositions you're likely to lose Kursk, Belgorod and Orel. Prepare to fall back to the Dnepr in the AGS area. Too many Soviets there and little to no preparations by you. If he wants to, it will be very easy for him to walk out of the Crimea.

The majority of your Fortified Zones currently serve no real purpose, as they were constructed too late to have a real effect.

Even with ~4 million men (which will increase soon enough) Cannonfodder can probably inflict some good damage because you're overextended.

You could launch attacks against the units at the frontline during the snow turns, provided the defenders are not fortified or are still weak even with forts.

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Post #: 398

RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 7:37:24 PM

heliodorus04

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

It's too late to pocket Moscow, considering the number of Soviets in the area. Unless you want to risk a frontal attack against the Moscow hexes, leave the city alone. Capturing the city now would in all likeliness just mean you'll lose it a few turns later.

Your intended defensive line is too close to the current front, it will fall.

Try to find some population level 3 or 4 towns and cities for your mobile units to hide in. Your current blizzard preparations are insufficient and will mean many of your mobile units lose morale for no strategic gain.

Evacuate the Ryazan salient and be ready to give up the area east of Kharkov as well.

You'll probably hold Kaluga if you play it right, but with the current dispositions you're likely to lose Kursk, Belgorod and Orel. Prepare to fall back to the Dnepr in the AGS area. Too many Soviets there and little to no preparations by you. If he wants to, it will be very easy for him to walk out of the Crimea.

The majority of your Fortified Zones currently serve no real purpose, as they were constructed too late to have a real effect.

Even with ~4 million men (which will increase soon enough) Cannonfodder can probably inflict some good damage because you're overextended.

You could launch attacks against the units at the frontline during the snow turns, provided the defenders are not fortified or are still weak even with forts.

Wow.
Sounds like I've done a poor job transitioning out of summer...

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Post #: 399

RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 7:46:46 PM

ComradeP

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No, that was fine, it's just that you now need to transition to winter/a blizzard that will be ugly on the Axis.

My points probably sounded a bit harsh, but they were only meant to be straightforward.

I've created a number of Moscow pockets including large amounts of units against the AI. Now, before anyone jumps in and yells: "this game isn't played against the AI!", the point I'm trying to make is that it will generally require 2 turns to clean up a pocket this size, minimum, especially with your current dispositions.

One thing you really, REALLY don't want is your mobile units being stuck halfway through a failed attempt at making a pocket, with no forts, shoddy logistics and halved CV's whilst the Soviets get doubled CV's right next to the mobile units caught with their pants down whilst trying to clean up the pocket. Also: if Cannonfodder's really smart, he has air bases in there and level bombers ready for transport missions so his CV's won't even decrease by much for the first turn of being isolated.

Attacking in the blizzard isn't the walk in the park it once was for the Soviets, but with some planning and preparation (and I honestly have no idea what kind of planning Cannonfodder has done) you can still land some fatal blows.

As you're still deep inside the Soviet Union, the primary goal at this point is the preservation of the Wehrmacht until the 1942 summer campaign season. Overextension and rather optimistic expectations for what you can do in the winter combined with a lack of preparations for the blizzard are your primary enemies. You probably won't believe the results of the first blizzard turn if it's your first blizzard against a human player, but try to stay in control and in some ways keep the initiative (in this case that means: withdraw at your own pace).

Look at the map, find good spots to hole up at, make a plan for where you want your mobile units to go for winter quarters, possibly aside from the elite SS divisions, as Q-Ball recently noted (but do remember to send the support units attached to those SS units to OKH in a city somewhere) and try to straighten the line so your infantry has at least some chance of holding it. Regiments at the frontline are a big no-no, although I guess that theoretically you could use some as skirmishers, but there shouldn't normally be a reason to use them. The last thing you need is overloading corps HQ's through splitting up units.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 11/30/2011 7:47:55 PM >

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RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 11:14:41 PM

Q-Ball

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Helio, can you post a shot of your whole front? That would help.

I have to agree that the last shots of the Ukraine looked very bad for you from a winter defense perspective, but can't say for sure, as you may have changed things a bit as well.

Your line appears to be very, very long, with nothing in the way of fort preparation in the rea.

On the bright side, in some sectors you can afford to give up ground

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 11/30/2011 11:20:13 PM >

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RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 11:40:47 PM

Peltonx

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heliodorus04

You have 2 turns to take Moscow atleast.

I would try to kick in the barn door and push around sides for 2 turns. If things go crappy pull back the last snow turn, then just withdraw a hex a turn during blizzard.

By assaulting the city you will damage manpower/factorys, so its worth tring an assault.

You will never get another chance to damage Moscow again.

Don't be the person who says, I wish I would have atleast tried.

You know how to load up and army for a city assault, you got nothing to lose by tring 2 turns of assaults.

Pelton

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Post #: 402

RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 11:51:01 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Incidentally, and before I go on: I�m on turn 20, and I can find no record of Turn 19 screenshots or anything. I think I might have saved both T19 and T18 pictures in the T18 file, because I�ve captured every turn in writing. Nothing seems missing. Continuing:

On the one hand, Pelton, I see your point, and on the other, the difference between Leningrad and Moscow is frontage. Leningrad compresses a defense, and you don�t attack Leningrad proper (the dense urban hex) until it�s out of supply.

There�s something weird going on north of Moscow, though, and I don�t know why he�s doing this. I don�t know if it�s a mistake or a setup� Check out this early picture (post recon, almost nothing moved):

See the white circle: I�m pretty sure I have severed that rail junction, and that would explain why he�s not counting on a defense up there. He�s got the river well defended and fortified. But if I could get to the towns circled, I could cut the last rail line. I don�t know what�s possible in snow in terms of movement distance, but I�m venturing that in a 3-turn sprint, you�d either be doing a �raid� that costs you a division, or it�s just not possible.

The next tactical question confronting me at Moscow and the Donets is this: how far can I move in 3 turns of attack, and how will I defend myself the first turn of blizzard? Those are frightening questions that I don�t have experience to answer.

Attack for 2 turns see how it goes. Cutting rail line now will not help, its to late.

I am guessing he has a huge army to north east in woods you can't recon.

Make dam sure your flanks are tight.

You really dont need forts in the woods as long as you with draw a hex or 2 per turn until february.

The main thing is the morale of german army from here on out. So land means very little. As q-ball and others have stated its important as German to attack during snow. You can get another 250,000+ in losses for russians which will hurt the blizzard O a little, better then nothing.

If you take Moscow or damage the manpower. That is like killing 200,000 replasements atleast, Flaviusx knows the numbers better then me.

Attack every wheres then start withdrawing. Expect your enemy to start counter attacking 2 or 3 turn of snow.

Pelton

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RE: North Moscow AO - 11/30/2011 11:54:54 PM

Peltonx

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You can try cutting of Moscow the first turn if it goes to sht start pulling back south of Moscow.

Your screwed big time to south unless you striaghten the lines.

1st turn attack, then think things over before 2nd snow turn.

The frontal assault is your safest and best chance from looking at your flanks. Don't get sucked into almost cutting off Moscow.

Pelton

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RE: North Moscow AO - 12/1/2011 12:18:33 AM

Baelfiin

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One of the best parts of the game: Decisions, Decisions, what can I get away with before the russians bring down the Blizzard Hammer!!

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Post #: 405

RE: North Moscow AO - 12/1/2011 1:29:25 AM

heliodorus04

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Turn 21 has arrived, and I've yet to update you guys on my decisions and actions from Turn 20, so my intention right now is to put down on paper the Turn 20 AAR, which is short, and already written, and will be done in a few minutes.

Then I'd like to discuss optimal ways, starting from whatever positions I'm in now, to mitigate morale loss for the upcoming blizzard.
That will be over-arching goal: Avoid morale loss.

What happens in the snow is important only in how it helps me prepare for a better blizzard. I see the points everyone's making about too little preparedness in the south, and too close forts in the center.

A little later tonight, I will update at a minimum the OOB/loss data with what I now have in the start of T21, and recon maps of what I see.

I'm not confident I can recover without ceding a ton of land.

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Post #: 406

Turn 20 Analysis - 12/1/2011 1:31:40 AM

heliodorus04

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Not much has gone on this turn.
I realized that given how slow movement is in mud, I need to start pre-positioning for my snow offensive. This is something new German players (and at this point, I consider myself one since I�ve only been in mud 3 times, and all of that under 1.04).
This in turn required me to make commitments to my winter offensive.

In the north, the only goal worth setting (and it�s not critical by any stretch) is cutting the rail line as far east as possible so he can�t move west. I have Mannstein�s corps, with only 1 armor and 1 motorized. But I do have a cav and motorized regiment, and those go a long way in this part of the map at this time of year (the cav more than the mot).

This brings up a related point: I have 70 APs between now and the start of snow (20 now on hand with the turn not yet finished, and 50 next turn). I need to be conscientious of how I spend them relative to my limited planning and execution window. I no longer have AP to set down forts everywhere I want; they will have to wait for snow. I have to carefully consider how I replace commanders, and how I attach divisions.

Case in point: I attached the Italians to 17.Army and the Hungarians to 4.Army. The Hungarian HQ is leaving, so it�s not a big deal. But the Italians have 6.Army between them and 17.Army command, and I can see no justification for fixing this. It will have to be how it is. It�s not like access to the Army HQ for failed rolls was going to make a big difference in their performance. These are the kinds of inefficiencies that great German players won�t make, and small optimizations can make a big difference over time.

At worst, 56.Panzer Corps (Mannstein) will have Lehr.bde attached. There�s no need to add the cav unless the distance to HQ requires (and it may). Cav and infantry when attached to an HQ using buildup are inefficient. The supply level is rarely a factor in infantry moving the way it is fuel to panzers. The sole reason for separate panzer commands (whatever their name) is for HQ buildup. Having infantry in a panzer corps adds cost to the buildup with little tangible benefit. Distance and quality leadership are the only reasons to add them (in which case, an Army HQ may do you just as much good, and give greater flexibility later).

Supply in the north is very good. I don�t really care what the leadership is up here. The quality is good, the terrain is good. Defense positioning is very good. I may have more force than I need. Right now, two corps of 16. & 18.Armies were mis-positioned, and I�m correcting that such that 18.Army will be Leningrad, and 16.Army will flex southeast. As mud turns to snow, 16.Army may move SE and occupy the space of 9.Army to allow the latter to press east. More on that later.

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< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 12/1/2011 1:32:13 AM >

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RE: Turn 20 Analysis - 12/1/2011 1:34:26 AM

heliodorus04

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Now, this is all my analysis before reading today's discussion of my defensive preparedness:
Northern Moscow-Kalinin: I have a nice screenshot of that area, but it�s not all that achievable a plan.

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RE: Turn 20 Analysis - 12/1/2011 1:34:49 AM

heliodorus04

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You can�t isolate Moscow without taking all 3 of the hexes circled. I think it�s more likely that my recon is shoddy in those woods than it is likely that CF would not garrison the woods there more heavily. That being said, he�s made many mistakes with his air fields, and this may yet be another. Still, he has 2 more turns of reinforcements arriving, and I think he knows what�s threatened by his supply line. One of the reasons he�s not defending the north more vigorously is that my first foray took out a good chunk of rail.

I simply don�t see me being able to get to those locations in 3 turns in such a way that they will survive longer than 4 turns� And I�m not throwing away units on raids.

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RE: Turn 20 Analysis - 12/1/2011 1:39:34 AM

heliodorus04

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Moscow's frontal assault prospects.

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RE: Turn 20 Analysis - 12/1/2011 1:40:38 AM

heliodorus04

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(Editor's note: This was all written prior to today's discussions on the state of my defense.)

The longer I look at this picture, the more it seems to me that Moscow is not worth the effort. I�d love to hear what readers think.

My experience is that as you compress the Soviets, everything is harder. I can�t encircle because he�s more agile in those environments and at this particular time. I can�t conduct a direct assault without first accounting for the Reserve rules, which seriously enhance the defender�s ability to hold terrain. Here again, Leningrad�s geography makes it a completely unique multi-hex area in the game. Moscow shares a small number of features, but without the compression of the waters on either side, Leningrad would be unwinnable for Germany. Leningrad�s borders work against both reserve commitment and supply continuity. Moscow doesn�t share either of those features.

So I�m leaning further and further toward the idea of not launching a winter offensive for Moscow, but rather, to congratulate myself on an excellent summer campaign, and fall back in preparation of a backhand blow after the blizzard. Thoughts?

I simply don�t see the odds of success as being worth the likely cost of success. I won�t hold Moscow through the blizzard even if I took it now.
If I do try to take Moscow, if one of you can convince me, like the little corporal himself, that the whole thing will fall apart and I�ll be in great shape for blizzard in Moscow�s ruins, then what I�d have to try to do is take the circled yellow hexes. These would go a long way to making it impossible for him to get reserve commitments. But the force required to take them will also be large. With a setup for SUs like Leningrad, it has a chance of working, but the chance seems small since my army is much weaker now. And if he has any good divisions left (and I�m sure he does), they are in the city.

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RE: Turn 20 Analysis - 12/1/2011 1:41:27 AM

heliodorus04

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This is where I think I have a little offensive opportunity left in 1941�

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Post #: 412

RE: Turn 20 Analysis - 12/1/2011 1:42:56 AM

heliodorus04

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The terrain favors mobile warfare. The objective will be to encircle in 2 turns as many divisions as I can, and destroy them by moving through them on the last turn of snow back toward the western forts.

The trick to this offensive is trying to prevent it from being detected as best I can. I have withdrawn armor from the north-bank of the Oka (along with the Cav, simply because it withdraws next turn anyway). I�ve tried to get them closer to railhead on refit. I have brought 2 �spare� corps down from other areas, that have no units attached (one is attached to 18.Army, however). The other corps from 18.Army, 1.Corps, is about where it needs to be.

I�m thinking I will want the rest of 2.Panzer Group involved in this attack, leaving 2 corps from 4.Panzer group to hold the perimeter with Moscow.

EDITOR'S NOTE:
This ends the turn and my general moves, which were not documented in much detail. In a bit, new recon photos will be available, and I can better discuss how my moves last turn supported the Tula-Orel offensive idea, and the drive to the sea of azov.

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Post #: 413

RE: Turn 20 Analysis - 12/1/2011 1:52:28 AM

krupp_88mm

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dont stalingrad yourself!

He who defends everywhere defends nowhere

think of what your advantage is and take it, do you care if he takes terrain in areas? let him take the worthless terrain set yourself up to surround him next season

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Post #: 414

RE: Turn 20 Analysis - 12/1/2011 3:28:35 AM

Q-Ball

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Here is my 2 pfennigs for what it's worth. And I may be wrong. But you look very seriously extended.

I think Cannonfodder is smart enough, based on his postings, to uncork a decent winter offensive. Given that, you have your pants down, IMO.

It's not the end of the world, but you need to be prepared to give-up lots of territory during the Blizzard, because you're going to have to either do that, or get alot of troops killed. Lots. Because you have zippo forts at the moment.

If I were you, I would:

1. Pull out of the Ryazan salient, or mostly; give up part of it first turn of Blizzard, but get out of there.
2. Forget Moscow
3. I would attack in the South, toward the Donbas; definitely do this. But once Blizzard hits, give those hexes right back. You are getting space to trade it back.
4. Find some cover for your Panzers
5. Get a shorter line, and dig through Snow; you have time to at least get lvl 2 along your front. That will get you through the first turn or two, before you have to fall back

After that, fall back one hex a turn, and stack your units up.

I would attack through Snow, but whatever ground you gain, plan on giving it right back, at the rate of at least 1 hex per turn. If you try and hold open ground, without forts, in December, you are digging your own grave.

I think you are in store for a bad winter........

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Post #: 415

Turn 21 OOB Data - 12/1/2011 4:20:20 AM

heliodorus04

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I find the lack of faith of my fellow players disturbing, though I can certainly see from where they are coming. I was under the impression that digging didn�t need to begin until mud. And I thought I was doing well particularly in the arena of Soviet units bagged� What do others think of these numbers?

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RE: Turn 21 OOB Data - 12/1/2011 4:20:53 AM

heliodorus04

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From: Nashville TN
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The million dollar question for better veterans than I is what does this level of unit destruction translate into in winter? Further, by my record-keeping, which was close to meticulous, I�ve fought 271 divisions (discounting all units prior to turn 4). The number of divisions that achieved 3 Held results against me is pretty low by my estimate and by my records (records prior to turn 10 are now deleted, as I upgraded my database). His guards status should be poor. I�ve destroyed 17 cavalry divisions, a high for me. That may be useful, I hope. All across his front, I have concentrated attacks on armies with effective SUs to bring them down and drain armaments. All across his front, morale from number of losses should be significant. Or at least that was my bet when I fought in the manner that I have (which was pretty historically parallel to the original, I think).

I have held his army growth under 90K per turn for the last 4 turns on average (I think that�s too low), which isn�t awful for mud turns, and knowing he has scheduled reinforcements. I am up 90 tanks this turn (and in places where it is important).

Does any of that matter?

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RE: Turn 21 OOB Data - 12/1/2011 4:34:00 AM

heliodorus04

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The Front
Note that I�m very suspicious my recon caught everything in the Donbas, and I�ll get more later.

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Disposition1 - 12/1/2011 5:27:33 AM

heliodorus04

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Moscow Disposition of Forces
4.Panzer Group is done with its feint north of Moscow. Time to rotate toward the 9 o�clock position of the Moscow semi-circle. Fall back to superior supply. No attacks planned on Moscow. The two panzer divisions with the excellent AFV counts become reserves. Intent is to draw strength and fall back on forts for T25, cascading backward (like a NATO 1986 defense) at a rate that preserves my morale from retreat results, as best I can.

I can give a great deal of ground with 9.Army north of Moscow in order to reinforce the area between Rzhev and Kaluga.

2.Panzer is mauled, just mauled. I�m stripping its better divisions for the snow offensive, leaving the western edge of Moscow defended by the trusty hands of 4.Panzer Group, with about 300 tanks on hand. 9.Army will probably start considering abandnoning Kalinin in order to shore up the central. 2.Panzer Group is a corps in fighting capacity (not counting 12.Corps out east on the Oka). 3 panzer divisions in 2 corps, with GD Mot.Reg. You may note from the map, though, that I have some OKH attached motorized elements at Kaluga. We�ll get to that later, but know that I�m phasing my defense around so I can commit units to a snow offensive.

Question:
*I* believe I have severed damaged supply routes east of Vysnhy Volichek and Kalinin that I have very little to fear in terms of an all-out attack in this area. It appears to me I have an excessive force set to defend the north, and there�s still time to manage that before blizzard. And I have to find my 8 or so infantry divisions to pull off the line.

I also believe that there is an advantage to be made out of the Moscow salient. The bulge prevents the mass of units inside the salient from reinforcing their comrades to the south. I intend to put a great deal of mass against Tula in hopes of creating a pocket that unbalances this larger center-bulge he has against Kursk.

If this recon is accurate, and I have confidence that it is around the center, he might not have the unit density to stop me from a good drive over 3 turns, and everything Soviet that lies north of the Oka is unable to get there to help. Now, whether this drive creates opportunity for CF in driving west early, well, I think I�m pretty good at maneuver warfare. But I�m betting on 4.Panzer Group and 9.Army in any early offensive. Blizzard is another matter.

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RE: Disposition1 - 12/1/2011 5:27:57 AM

heliodorus04

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From: Nashville TN
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And the picture