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Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ??

 
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Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/1/2011 5:18:49 PM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline 		Michaelm,

For a few days now I have been watching a red warning indicator on the Manchukuo Garrison numbers.
Initially I thought that I had made an error and actually moved too many troops out of the region and started shipping troops back as fast as I could.

Somehow the climb in the Garrison count did not appear to match the AV of the units shipped back.

Yesterday (6th January) I did a manual count of all LCU Attack Values in the Manchukuo region and summed 8643AV.
Today on the 7th the Soviets went active and on a recount I see that I have 8686AV in region.

Attached please find a zip file containing the the current and previous turns.

Game is running under the most recent beta patch. Further, it has been in progress and has undergone a number of beta patch updates without any obvious problem. I am thus flummoxed at the moment.

Please look into this matter at your earliest convenience as it is an active PBEM game.

Thanks in advance,

Bruce Knowles

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RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/2/2011 8:37:45 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		The problem is that you can't see what hexes make up 'Manchukuo'. It is not explicitly the nationality 105 as you would expect.

This is a holdover from the stock witp.

The manual talks about the NorthWest Control Zone, but this is not shown on the map. And actually covers more than just Manchuko, and even leaves some of it out.



< Message edited by michaelm -- 12/2/2011 8:56:40 AM >

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 2
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/2/2011 10:58:11 AM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline 		Hmmm..... not an answer that would make any Japanese player get an instant 'warm fuzzy feeling'.

Implied in your response Michael is that it is quite possible to move troops around Manchukuo and inadvertently invade Russia.

This suggestion is based on the fact that your answer states that the game engine does not know where all of the Manchukuo border hexes are and thus cannot calculate for a given LCU whether its strength should be aggregated into the Garrison control variable.

You will note from the saved games that with the exception of the units which start on the Russian border in the field, there are still enough troops located in cities in the region exceeding the minimum garrison requirement. Now, some cities have been removed in the new game, and others have been added. More hexes now exist admittedly but only around 242 of these constitute Manchukuo.

In your opinion, is this legacy definition of the Manchukuo region fixable? Is this fix trivial?

If this is a fixable problem, will it also be possible to reset the Soviet activation status in the saved game file as well?

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 3
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/2/2011 11:32:34 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bk19@mweb.co.za

Hmmm..... not an answer that would make any Japanese player get an instant 'warm fuzzy feeling'.

Implied in your response Michael is that it is quite possible to move troops around Manchukuo and inadvertently invade Russia.

This suggestion is based on the fact that your answer states that the game engine does not know where all of the Manchukuo border hexes are and thus cannot calculate for a given LCU whether its strength should be aggregated into the Garrison control variable.

You will note from the saved games that with the exception of the units which start on the Russian border in the field, there are still enough troops located in cities in the region exceeding the minimum garrison requirement. Now, some cities have been removed in the new game, and others have been added. More hexes now exist admittedly but only around 242 of these constitute Manchukuo.

In your opinion, is this legacy definition of the Manchukuo region fixable? Is this fix trivial?

If this is a fixable problem, will it also be possible to reset the Soviet activation status in the saved game file as well?


No.
I said that what constitutes Manchuko for the garrison requirement is not actually within the defines of the Manchuko as shown on the map and viewable as #105 (?) when using hotkey '4'.
National hex ownership was a late addition to AE IIRC, so the old method of determination (SW Zone) was still in place and obviously not revised.
Changing to use the original national hex ownership is quite doable, and clearly defines the area that must be kept garrisoned to stop Soviet activation.
It has been the old way since release, and this is the first time it has been questioned. So it can't be a game stopper for most players.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 4
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/2/2011 11:34:30 AM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline 		Michael,

I posted my last questions before I had seen your edited text.

I have taken a look at the WITP Weather Zone map and can see clearly the underlying cause for this behaviour.
In particular we can also see that there are a number of troops within Manchukuo borders but lie outside the Northwest Control Zone.

It is also interesting to note that the Z key does not display the Zone Control Map in WITP AE either.

I understand that this may well prove a tough challenge, but my questions of the earlier mail still have some relevance I think.



< Message edited by bk19@mweb.co.za -- 12/2/2011 11:47:32 AM >

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 5
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/2/2011 11:46:44 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		The Zones was used primarily by AI when putting sections under computer control in old WITP. As this was removed for AE due to the complexity of the new game, they still existed only as zones to define certain action in.
Most of the reasons for preserving these zones slowly disappeared as more use was made on the new national hex ownership. So now it's use is more generalised and not the fine definition as needed for the Manchuko garrison. The AI still uses the zones for determining where units are, and if they can be pulled in for missions/attacks/etc.

Changing to use the original national hex ownership (for garrison purposes) is quite doable, and clearly defines the area that must be kept garrisoned to stop Soviet activation.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 6
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/2/2011 11:54:35 AM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline 		Ok Michael,

Thanks very much indeed for your responses.

This problem is not a game stopper between players I suspect once the underlying cause is understood. In my case, I have already received a proposal to work around this problem.

My concern though is what other code is triggered/enabled once the Soviets are marked active that could impact on the game. I think now in terms of game engine mechanics/behaviours and not necessarily what may have been enabled for players to leverage through conscious action.

< Message edited by bk19@mweb.co.za -- 12/2/2011 12:00:05 PM >

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 7
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/2/2011 12:57:25 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bk19@mweb.co.za

My concern though is what other code is triggered/enabled once the Soviets are marked active that could impact on the game. I think now in terms of game engine mechanics/behaviours and not necessarily what may have been enabled for players to leverage through conscious action.

Good question ... does supply through SOV get enabled for CHI?

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 8
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/2/2011 1:16:48 PM   
CV 2

 

Posts: 376
Joined: 2/21/2011
Status: offline 		No. That was taken out LONG before the game was released. Chinese units do not draw supply from the Soviet Union. Frankly Im not sure they do after Russia activates either, but have never tried.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 9
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 9:37:54 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Because NW was counted as the 'Manuchuko' garrision, that would also include Korea which is NW too.

So the old Japanese AV count would actually be higher than it would be now.

Hotkey '2' actually shows the control zones. Not sure why I didn't remember that.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to CV 2)
Post #: 10
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 9:55:48 AM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline 		OK use of the 2 key clearly shows that there are 8 hexes inside the Manchukuo region that are excluded from the calculation.

Is the weather zone an attribute of the hex definition in the pwhexe.dat file or is this hard coded?

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 11
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 10:05:17 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Weather zones are based on hex location IIR.
Control zones are stored in the pwhexe.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 12
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 10:09:59 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Changing to use the original national hex ownership (for garrison purposes) is quite doable, and clearly defines the area that must be kept garrisoned to stop Soviet activation.



I thought that was how it already worked

I guess if that is easy to do it makes sense to change it to use the Manchukuo nationality (or Manchukuo + Korea). Alternatively, the control zone data is in the map data file, so that could be modified to suit. However, that would not help anyone not switching to the updated map data file.

Let me know if the consensus is to modify the control zones in the map data file.

Andrew

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 13
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 10:14:01 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Weather zones are based on hex location IIR.


There is a weather zone field in the map data file, but there was never any work done to the weather system for AE (which is one of my big regrets about the AE development), so it is not used in any way as far as I am aware. In fact, if my (awful) memory serves me correctly, the weather zone data itself was never actually added into the file.

Andrew

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 14
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 11:11:48 AM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline 		Hi, just patched to the latest patch....and my 1,500 AV surplus has been rudeced to a 2,500 deficit in Manchukuo.......I've been trying to follow the responses in this thread .......am I to gather the zones involved have changed? Obviously loath to run and finish turn and will wait until the next patch for this to be changed back....which I assume it will. Or has this changed forever and I need to restart my game under new rules?

Many thanks forany reply.

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 15
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 12:36:16 PM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline 		I came across this posting in the Patch 06-Public Beta posting number 1196 See here

quote:

[1108r5]
Fixed Missing troop level in non-base hex [MEM]
Fixed Use Manchuko hex ownership to determine garrision [MEM]
Fixed Reinforcement LCU details not showing when clicked on Reinforcement Schedule [MEM]
Fixed Reinforcement arrival shows on enemy report [MEM]
Fixed Rebuilt unit not finding devices [MEM]
Fixed Destroyed LCU could get stuck on reinforcement queue if from a ship [MEM]
Tweak Show Atoll or island size on mouse over of base [MEM]
Tweak Industry FOW [MEM]


Does this line relate to determining the Manchukuo Garrison value? If so read 1, if not please ignore.

1. Suppose now that it is pre 1945 and the Chinese have gone walkabout in the region and have captured some turf.
Suppose now on the counter-attack a goodly sum of localised troops are attempting to regain a lost hex and are currently in combat in said hex.
Why would these troops not be considered when determining the garrison?

2. Could this fix have any bearing on the current discussion?

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 16
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 12:36:28 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		The current Mancuko requirement covers the area know as the NW Zone. This covered Korea and Manchuko less the 2 left most hex rows of Manchuko.

I changed this to the area defined by the nationality of hex to cover just Manchuko.
This has probably skewed the numbers. I am updating this to include Korea as originally included in WITP.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 17
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:01:40 PM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline 		Many Thanks Michael............

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 18
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:15:34 PM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline 		Hi Michael......downloaded new patch and although the garrison numbers are up....they are still 1,500 behind what was there pre-patch....any thoughts? Thanks

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 19
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:27:52 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Attach a save for me to see where your units are.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 20
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:34:58 PM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline 		oops.....

that was kinda dumb......

In fact... I guess I could apply for a role in the next edition of Dumb, Dumber and Dumbest...

quote:

ORIGINAL: bk19@mweb.co.za

I came across this posting in the Patch 06-Public Beta posting number 1196 See here

quote:

[1108r5]
Fixed Missing troop level in non-base hex [MEM]
Fixed Use Manchuko hex ownership to determine garrision [MEM]
Fixed Reinforcement LCU details not showing when clicked on Reinforcement Schedule [MEM]
Fixed Reinforcement arrival shows on enemy report [MEM]
Fixed Rebuilt unit not finding devices [MEM]
Fixed Destroyed LCU could get stuck on reinforcement queue if from a ship [MEM]
Tweak Show Atoll or island size on mouse over of base [MEM]
Tweak Industry FOW [MEM]


Does this line relate to determining the Manchukuo Garrison value? If so read 1, if not please ignore.

1. Suppose now that it is pre 1945 and the Chinese have gone walkabout in the region and have captured some turf.
Suppose now on the counter-attack a goodly sum of localised troops are attempting to regain a lost hex and are currently in combat in said hex.
Why would these troops not be considered when determining the garrison?

2. Could this fix have any bearing on the current discussion?



(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 21
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:46:03 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fabertong

Hi Michael......downloaded new patch and although the garrison numbers are up....they are still 1,500 behind what was there pre-patch....any thoughts? Thanks

Checked the new code and it was only looking a units in bases for the garrison numbers.
Updated the installer (1108r5e) to look at units in any hex within the defined area (as set out by manual).

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 22
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:49:59 PM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline 		Egads I' failing to attach a save .....getting a file not supported mentioned....Help?!...Thanks....

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 23
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:51:29 PM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline 		stick the save file into a zip and attach that.

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 24
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:57:31 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fabertong

Egads I' failing to attach a save .....getting a file not supported mentioned....Help?!...Thanks....

If you install r5e, you probably will get back your numbers (or close to it).

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 25
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:57:33 PM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline 		Thanks bk19.............Michael should I PM you the password?

Attachment (1)

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 26
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:57:59 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		No need

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 27
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 1:58:39 PM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline 		Thanks

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 28
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 2:02:21 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I am reading 9453/8000 from the save now using r5e build.

The static border defence units were missing from the totals as they are mostly not in base hexes, but along the Soviet border.


< Message edited by michaelm -- 12/4/2011 2:03:30 PM >

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 29
RE: Soviets Active - Jan 7th, 1942 ?? - 12/4/2011 2:04:29 PM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline 		Thanks....I'll have another look.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 30
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