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RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 7:00:11 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

A picture taken from 30k feet of an industrial facility cannot tell you what kind of a/c they are producing inside.

And do the planes come outside once they're finished? Yes they do.

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The Moose

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Post #: 4201

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 7:03:09 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

Point being I suppose that WWII bombing missions were not launched blind at "its an industrial facility somewhere near Berlin", then generlly knew what they were trying to hit from a variety of intelligence sources (humint, sigint, recon, etc).

The previous "perfect" intel was bonkers, but correcting down to "virtually no information" is equally wrong, just in the other direction imho.

Great site with thousands and thousands of aerial photo recon photos of WWII Germany. Amazing detail w/ black & white film and cameras of the day.

http://aerial.rcahms.gov.uk/worldwide/Germany.php

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Post #: 4202

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 7:03:19 PM

vettim89

Posts: 3615
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From: Toledo, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

A picture taken from 30k feet of an industrial facility cannot tell you what kind of a/c they are producing inside.

And do the planes come outside once they're finished? Yes they do.

My thoughts exactly. Of all the industrial facilities one could recon, it would seem to me that aircaft assembly plants would be the easiest to identify

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 4203

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 7:11:55 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Ok, I know we are hijacking GJs AAR, but the Doolittle raiders had specific known targets to attack when they bombed Japan in 1942. Including oil storage facilties, a steel mill and power plants. The knowledge of these targets, I assume, was gained without any sort of recon. I would suspect that the Allies had an even clearer picture of potential targets by mid 1944.

Humint was hard in the HI, but there was some from my understanding (the Sorge Ring for one, but I'm not sure how much if any was shared with Washington.) A lot more on the mainland in the case of Harbin. Sigint was far more advanced than the game portrays as well. Overall, if the Allies in the game had a true level of intel (UDTs? Submarine recon? Magic? Japanese naval codes?) the JFBs would scream bloody murder and "unfairness."

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/7/2011 7:12:36 PM >

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Post #: 4204

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 7:17:19 PM

witpqs

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Remember all the pre-war Intel as well.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

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RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 7:21:19 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Remember all the pre-war Intel as well.

Very true. Factories aren't on wheels.

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Post #: 4206

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 7:24:17 PM

cantona2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Remember all the pre-war Intel as well.

Very true. Factories aren't on wheels.

Yes they do. Ask Stalin and the Soviets!

_____________________________

1966 was a great year for English Football...Eric was born

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Post #: 4207

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 7:34:36 PM

paullus99

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Wasn't part of the problem with the strategic bombing campaign against Japan that a lot of the fabrication was being done in very small shops in residential areas? Again, part of the reason the US went with large scale firebombing raids, since it was much more effective at hurting industrial production than pin-point factory raids.

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Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

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Post #: 4208

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 8:38:49 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Remember all the pre-war Intel as well.

Very true. Factories aren't on wheels.

Yes they do. Ask Stalin and the Soviets!

Fair enough, but the wheels need to come with a Vast Hinterlands to wheel to.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to cantona2)

Post #: 4209

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 10:24:10 PM

Nemo121

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Honestly I don't see what all the fuss is about claiming the change is unfair. As I see it the new FOW interacts with players as follows:

1. ANYONE can open the scenario on 7th December 1941 and note down what is where - this will pinpoint pre-war factories, pre-war HI, pre-war oil refineries etc.

2. If you have less than 10 DL you don't know exactly which plane types are being produced but a tiny bit of guesswork removes much of the trouble:
a) If 60 of a type are being produced then that's more likely to be a fighter than a bomber
b) even if that's wrong it is definitely likely to be one of the mainstays of your opponent's air force and thus well worth bombing.
c) as numbers produced goes down the plane is less and less likely to be a key plane type ( or your opponent is dispersing production on purpose in preparation for strategic bombing ).

3. Once you get a DL of 10 ( which can be gotten in 1 or 2 days if you commit a few recon units to the task - a single squadron split into 3 components usually suffices for me ) you get perfect intel of which planes are being made in which factories. Once you get that intel once you note it down and then NEVER have to recon that base again.

End result: If Japan has their airframe and engine production split between 20 bases and you have 4 recon squadrons capable of recon then you can fully ID 2 bases per day ( with split squadrons ) and recon everything you need to the necessary level in about 10 days.

Obviously it might take a bit longer in a real game then that theory but, really, the unfairness and difficulty of this is being blown out of all proportion. I maintained a DL of 10 over Okinawa for 6 weeks day in day out using just 2 x Ki-15 airgroups near the end. Its pretty damned easy to recon up to a DL of 10 with just a tiny bit of thought.

GJ,
Your stated strategic bombing plan: Recon everything, stand down for a week and then hit something else; is a recipe for disaster. There's no point bombing a target unless your DL ( on the day of bombing ) is 9 or more. Your plan would have that DL be about 1 and would result in very poor bombing accuracy. Again, through a minor error you'd be losingthe majority of the effectiveness of your bomber force.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 4210

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 10:27:28 PM

cantona2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Remember all the pre-war Intel as well.

Very true. Factories aren't on wheels.

Yes they do. Ask Stalin and the Soviets!

Fair enough, but the wheels need to come with a Vast Hinterlands to wheel to.

True

PS thanks for the linkage earlier about those recon pics

< Message edited by cantona2 -- 12/7/2011 10:28:29 PM >

_____________________________

1966 was a great year for English Football...Eric was born

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Post #: 4211

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 10:39:37 PM

pws1225

Posts: 1166
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From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

GJ,
Your stated strategic bombing plan: Recon everything, stand down for a week and then hit something else; is a recipe for disaster. There's no point bombing a target unless your DL ( on the day of bombing ) is 9 or more. Your plan would have that DL be about 1 and would result in very poor bombing accuracy. Again, through a minor error you'd be losingthe majority of the effectiveness of your bomber force.

Why would this be true for a factory? I can understand that LCUs and TFs can move around causing poor bombing results with low DLs, but factories are fixed in place. It seems that recent recon shouldn't make that much difference. Perhaps it's just the way the game is coded?

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 4212

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 10:52:55 PM

Nemo121

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I was talking about how the game works and how GJ needs to work within the game.

You are correct in that in real life pictures from a week before would still be current and lead to high accuracy bombing. On the other hand, the game doesn't work that way - and won't until they institute multiple different DLs depending on "mobility" such that items which are immobile don't degrade their DL nearly as quickly as ground units etc etc.

It is a flaw in the game but well down the list of things which needs to be fixed at this stage IMO. There are far more result-impacting flaws out there which still need fixing first.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 4213

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 11:19:18 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

The German factories are a bit different than the ones in Japan

True that. The German ones you had to bomb directly. The Japanese ones? Just light up the whole town at night and that cuts production down.In all seriousness I think Japanese production was decentralized a bit. Not quite mom and pop shops, but more, smaller factories. Don't know if that was aircraft of not, but they were probably not nearly as centralized as Germany's

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Post #: 4214

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/7/2011 11:54:41 PM

pat.casey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

The German factories are a bit different than the ones in Japan
True that. The German ones you had to bomb directly. The Japanese ones? Just light up the whole town at night and that cuts production down.In all seriousness I think Japanese production was decentralized a bit. Not quite mom and pop shops, but more, smaller factories. Don't know if that was aircraft of not, but they were probably not nearly as centralized as Germany's

Really depends.

Some things like shipyards are intrinsically centralized (there's only a finite number of drydocks).
Other thinks like heavy machine tooling require massive power and capital investments so really don't decentralize well. You cannot run a stamping mill in your basement for example.

Some stuff you can though. For example, you can machine small parts or build subassemblies for wooden aircraft frame.

The trick in most of these cases though is that somewhere all these subassemblies have to get put together into an airplane and that process requires a central location with lots of open space and specialized equipment e.g. a factory.

That being said, heavy industrial equipment is actually remarkably hard to damage with high explosives. Something like an industrial lathe or a stamping press weighs tens of tons and is remarkably robust. Barring a very direct hit, the worst thing a bomb hit is likely to do is knock it off lever or damage its mounts requiring a few days to get it relevelled and mounted.

That's one of the reason folks switched to area bombing. Compared to heavy industrial equipment, people are easy to kill.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)

Post #: 4215

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/8/2011 12:25:40 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Honestly I don't see what all the fuss is about claiming the change is unfair.

In that case, why did it need to be changed? I mean, if the Allied player can open a separate game and read the Japanese mail, what's the big deal?

Illogical.

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The Moose

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Post #: 4216

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/8/2011 12:30:08 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

The trick in most of these cases though is that somewhere all these subassemblies have to get put together into an airplane and that process requires a central location with lots of open space and specialized equipment e.g. a factory.

That's one of the reason folks switched to area bombing. Compared to heavy industrial equipment, people are easy to kill.

It also requires trains, tracks, and skilled operaotrs. Trains can be taken out with tac air if in range.

But I agree. Kill the people and the machines sit mute. War production workers are a valid military target.

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The Moose

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Post #: 4217

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/8/2011 12:32:18 AM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

That being said, heavy industrial equipment is actually remarkably hard to damage with high explosives. Something like an industrial lathe or a stamping press weighs tens of tons and is remarkably robust. Barring a very direct hit, the worst thing a bomb hit is likely to do is knock it off lever or damage its mounts requiring a few days to get it relevelled and mounted.

I believe German aircraft production actually kept rising until mid-late 1944. Eventually it crashed, but I am not so sure that was due to bombing or lack of ability to transport raw materials. Have to read my Strategic Bombing Survey again

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Post #: 4218

Okkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 12:42:53 AM

GreyJoy

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Sorry guys but i won't follow the discussion about DL and factories...need to update 2 important turns

May 3, 4 1944

Harbin was hit hard. and only a couple of planes now remain in production

At Hakkodate our PTs and DDs, despite heavy losses due to mines mostly (during this campaign for Hakkodate i lost 25 PTs, 4 DMS, 5 DDs and got many more heavily damaged), managed to score some important results, destroying the upcoming fleet of barges that from Ominato were moving to Hakkodate in order to lift away the sieged garrison.
We didn't want to give the enmy any breath so we didn't wait. Our units were sent on the heels of the fleeing enemy.
Our PTs also sunk a jap CL

and, in combination with our subs, 4 LSTs, 5 xAKLs and several PBs and AMcs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Ominato at 118,53, Range 3,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
AMc Yoshitomo Maru, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
AMc Gamitsu Maru #1, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
LB-1035, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
LB-5001, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
LB-5002, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
LB-5003, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
LB-5004, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
LB-5005, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
LB-5006, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
LB-5007, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
LB-5009, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-201, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-202, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
LB-203, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-204, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-205, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
LB-206, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
LB-207, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
LB-209, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-210, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
LB-211, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-212, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
LB-213, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
LB-215, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
LB-216, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
LB-217, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-218, Shell hits 2, and is sunk

Allied Ships
PT-496
PT-497
PT-522
PT-524
PT-525
PT-526
PT-527
PT-528
PT-530
PT-531

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Ominato at 118,53, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Katori, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

DD Yukaze

Allied Ships
PT-161
PT-242
PT-258
PT-345
PT-357
PT-463
PT-465
PT-469, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT-493, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Harbin , at 109,39

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.VI x 16
B-24J Liberator x 205
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 24

No Allied losses

N1K1 Rex factory hits 9
J1N1-C Irving factory hits 3
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar factory hits 14
E15K1 Norm factory hits 8

In Sopac Rader ambushed our B-25s on naval attack mission near Kavieng, destroying 50 bombers and 40 escort Beaufighters.... I have to learn not to get impatient!!!!

Enemy CV popped up near Perth and sunk 2 TKs....i think it was a combo of CVEs...nothing serious

May 5, 6 1944

Our Okkaido army arrived at Hakkodate on the run....we didn't give the enemy no quarter...he managed to dunkirk several thousands men using barges, despite my effort to close the door...
We LRCAPped Hakkodate and sent 200 2Es to bomb the garrison there. No opposition found in the air...
After the intense air bombing our generals ordered the final attack to the enemy's redoubt and we immediately conquered the important base. The following day we cleared what was left of the enemy presence in Okkaido.

Now that the last jap soldier has abbandoned Okkaido it's time to set up proper defences and to give my division a deserved rest.

Our Convoys are close to home by now...while a new CVE TF (230 planes strong) and a CV TF leaded by WaspII (278 planes) are joining our main CV/CVE fleet near Addak... everything is going smoothly...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Ominato at 118,53, Range 4,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
AMc Wa 13, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
E W-24, Shell hits 4
PB Kohuku Maru, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
LB-5008, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
LB-5015, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-219, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
LB-221, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-222, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
LB-558, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
LB-561, Shell hits 21, and is sunk
LB-562, Shell hits 2
LB-1203, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
LB-1204, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
LB-1315, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
PT-496
PT-497
PT-522
PT-524, Shell hits 1
PT-526, Shell hits 1
PT-527
PT-528
PT-530
PT-531

Japanese ground losses:
614 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 53 destroyed, 64 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Hakodate (119,53)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 151493 troops, 3163 guns, 3630 vehicles, Assault Value = 5541

Defending force 12086 troops, 89 guns, 116 vehicles, Assault Value = 150

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Allied adjusted assault: 3886

Japanese adjusted defense: 67

Allied assault odds: 58 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied forces CAPTURE Hakodate !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4693 casualties reported
Squads: 151 destroyed, 53 disabled
Non Combat: 312 destroyed, 124 disabled
Engineers: 25 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 80 (74 destroyed, 6 disabled)
Vehicles lost 98 (84 destroyed, 14 disabled)
Units destroyed 3

Allied ground losses:
504 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 76 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 17 disabled
Guns lost 10 (1 destroyed, 9 disabled)
Vehicles lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Assaulting units:
7th Infantry Division
8th Indian Division
3rd Marine Division
104th Combat Engineer Regiment
4th USMC Tank Battalion
2nd Marine Division
1st Cavalry (Spec) Cavalry Division
193rd Tank Battalion
754th Tank Battalion
41st Infantry Division
33rd Infantry Division
40th Infantry Division
6th Infantry Division
4th Marine Division
5th USMC Tank Battalion
32nd Infantry Division
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
131st Combat Engineer Regiment
Americal Infantry Division
1st USMC Amphb Tank Battalion
3rd NZ Armoured Sqn
9th Australian Division
82nd Mortar Battalion
109th Tank Attack Regiment
134th Field Artillery Battalion
225th Field Artillery Battalion
148th Field Artillery Battalion
XIV Corps Artillery
10th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
7th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
V US Amphib Corps
147th Field Artillery Regiment
XI US Corps
33rd Medium Regiment
181st Field Artillery Regiment
198th Field Artillery Battalion
249th Field Artillery Battalion
XXI Indian Corps

Defending units:
86th Division
43rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
1st Mobile Brigade
27th Tank Regiment
4th Depot Division
Guards Depot Div /2
81st Div /2
II/19th Nav Gd /1
77th Div /2
56th Depot Division
1st JAAF AF Bn /14
6th Shipping Engr Rgt /10
57th Depot Div /1
Hakodate Fortress
5th Area Army
74th Infantry Rgt /4
2nd Depot Division
11th Div /1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Hakodate (119,53)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 151464 troops, 3165 guns, 3635 vehicles, Assault Value = 5513

Defending force 6312 troops, 28 guns, 47 vehicles, Assault Value = 38

Allied adjusted assault: 3576

Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 3576 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
6329 casualties reported
Squads: 151 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 738 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 12 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 17 (17 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 50 (50 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 12

Allied ground losses:
60 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled

Assaulting units:
193rd Tank Battalion
5th USMC Tank Battalion
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
104th Combat Engineer Regiment
40th Infantry Division
754th Tank Battalion
Americal Infantry Division
1st USMC Amphb Tank Battalion
4th USMC Tank Battalion
8th Indian Division
32nd Infantry Division
7th Infantry Division
33rd Infantry Division
6th Infantry Division
3rd NZ Armoured Sqn
1st Cavalry (Spec) Cavalry Division
3rd Marine Division
2nd Marine Division
41st Infantry Division
131st Combat Engineer Regiment
4th Marine Division
9th Australian Division
10th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
33rd Medium Regiment
7th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
XI US Corps
225th Field Artillery Battalion
148th Field Artillery Battalion
134th Field Artillery Battalion
181st Field Artillery Regiment
XIV Corps Artillery
109th Tank Attack Regiment
V US Amphib Corps
249th Field Artillery Battalion
82nd Mortar Battalion
198th Field Artillery Battalion
147th Field Artillery Regiment
XXI Indian Corps

Defending units:
Guards Depot Div /2
4th Depot Division
57th Depot Div /1
43rd Ind.Mixed Bde /1
81st Div /2
27th Tank Regiment
5th Area Army
Hakodate Fortress
56th Depot Division
74th Infantry Rgt /4
2nd Depot Div /1
1st Mobile Bde /2
77th Div /2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Japanese Unit(s) Wiped Out at Hakodate by attrition!!!

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 4219

RE: Okkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 12:43:42 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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A pic of Okkaido "liberated"

Attachment (1)

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4220

RE: Okkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 12:51:36 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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Ok now it's time to organize the defence of my conquests...just in case Rader tries something crazy or in case i get unlucky and lose a CV battle...

Every single base in the Kuriles and Okkaido will have a "static" defence composed of an Infantry regiment, a CD guns unit (most of them have a Def Marine unit and a CD guns Bn or rgt), a 105 mm arty unit, 6 forts and several seabees units. Every single base will be in range of an Air HQ and in range of an Army HQ (uruppu and Bihoro also have a corp HQ). PTs boats are placed everywhere and most of my bases will have a DD division based in its port.
Fuel and supplies are well distributed and several bases have AKE,AD,AS, AV and AG aux ships.

My divisions will be regrouped at Sapporo and Bihoro, where they'll rest and heal their wounds

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4221

Okkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 12:52:36 AM

GreyJoy

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Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

GJ,
Your stated strategic bombing plan: Recon everything, stand down for a week and then hit something else; is a recipe for disaster. There's no point bombing a target unless your DL ( on the day of bombing ) is 9 or more. Your plan would have that DL be about 1 and would result in very poor bombing accuracy. Again, through a minor error you'd be losingthe majority of the effectiveness of your bomber force.

Oh...didn't know that! Thanks! i'll act accordingly

< Message edited by GreyJoy -- 12/8/2011 12:56:37 AM >

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 4222

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/8/2011 1:31:46 AM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Honestly I don't see what all the fuss is about claiming the change is unfair.

In that case, why did it need to be changed? I mean, if the Allied player can open a separate game and read the Japanese mail, what's the big deal?

Illogical.

Bullwinkle -
Usually I agree with what you post. But on this, I'll kindly disagree.

Simply put, I'd rather have the player finding target information than having 100% knowledge for all of the war. Sure the system makes the player work a little harder, but as SigInt is mostly abstracted, what is wrong with putting it back into human hands? It runs both ways.

As you know, DL is also necessary for improved bombing accuracy, piggy backing FOW onto this is a good thing. Sure, it's imperfect, as Nemo pointed out there should be two systems of DL (one for moving and one for static), but as there isn't this sure beats 100% knowledge instantly recognising factory changes, production runs, R&D etc. RL Allied intelligence was wonderful; but you can't tell me they knew everything in real time and got it all right.

So for me, it is an issue of would you rather have an over powerful Strategic bombing model backed by 100% intelligence, or a system where a player does a little homework (recon / bombing runs / fly overs / proximity) and can still get the info he / she needs. It seems like a good reward for good play - instead of ...

Now maybe I shouldn't have brought the argument with the bombing model combined, but I can take it out and still make a good play of it. Change is not always a good thing, but in this; the rewards of putting it back in our hands are better than abstracted overkill.

Sure, some elements of SigInt are weak for the Allies in the game, but it is a game and I don't usually give my password to my opponent so he can see everything I'm doing. (Although I have with some). But I'm transgressing, labelling this as a "cave in to JFB's" wishes is a little unfair in the context of this is a game, it should be enjoyed by both parties; not withstanding AI players like yourself. And if I was, then I'd have thought a little extra challenge at the end of the day is no great thing

I guess we'll differ on this, and I'm fine with that. But I'll leave you with a parting thought, the game is evolving and getting better mainly due to MichealM, modders and the great community here. This progression maybe imperfect, and will have its critics, but each step enriches our experience of the game, not the simulator and brings us closer to a more perfect gaming experience. Eventually, who knows, maybe a DL dichotomy will evolve and this issue will be mute. But even if it isn't, you know where my vote is

Enough of my harping.

Best wishes to all,

_____________________________

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EconDoc
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Tutes&Java

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 4223

RE: Okkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 1:33:38 AM

Mistmatz

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline

I don't have a map open but I am not sure whether B-24s could hit Harbin without using soviet air space or not. If not this might be an item for a house rule in the future. at least as long as the soviets are inactive.

_____________________________

If you gained knowledge through the forum, why not putting it into the AE wiki?

http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/War_in_the_Pacific:_Admiral%27s_Edition_Wiki

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4224

RE: Okkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 1:50:05 AM

kfsgo

Posts: 446
Joined: 9/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

I don't have a map open but I am not sure whether B-24s could hit Harbin without using soviet air space or not. If not this might be an item for a house rule in the future. at least as long as the soviets are inactive.

Harbin to Sapporo is 750 (RL) miles; diverting around Russia looks to be about 850-900 depending on how close you want to cut it, so it's doable, you'd just get less load there.

The Russians do seem likely to have a substantial B-24 force ready to go by the time the war's over, though, heh.

< Message edited by kfsgo -- 12/8/2011 1:54:12 AM >

(in reply to Mistmatz)

Post #: 4225

RE: SUDDENLY HAIRY - 12/8/2011 2:39:20 AM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Usually I agree with what you post. But on this, I'll kindly disagree.

PM sent.

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Post #: 4226

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 10:30:38 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 09, 44

Ok, an important psycho turn.
For the first time night bombers were sent over Tokyo. The sacred air space is violated for the first time in this war.
Results were terrible nonetheless. Sent 46 PB4Ys at night to bomb the Frank factories in Tokyo.
The first night bad weather prevented any operation. The second night all my bombers strayed (what does it mean!?) due to night and arrived scattered in small groups over the enemy capital. Not a single hit and several bombers shot down by a fierce AA fire.
However i like the idea to be able to tend my hand and reach Tokyo so easily

Today we destroyed another aircraft factory (61 A6M5s) at Hachinoe!
We used a mixed air strategy this time.
80 Corsairs were ordered to LRCAP, 150 fighters were ordered to sweep (P-47s and P-38s mainly) and old corsairs were ordered to escort.
650 bombers were committed. Targets were, a part from the factory, ground troops.
The enemy didn't show up (too busy to provide CAP for his major air production centres) and we had an easy turn destroying the said factory and causing more than 5,000 casualities.

Near Salamua, over the Owen Stanleys, 2 reinforced allied divisions attacked the japanese 4th Division. We achieved a 1-2 but caused a lot of damaged to the enemy big unit.
We will keep on attacking here, with the support of 120 2Es from PM...i wanna break his perimeter around Salamua...

In the meanwhile our 2 convoys bringing 400,000 supplies and 600,000 fuel are ready to be shipped to Nopac, while in 4 days we'll start to load 5 more divisions and several support units that will have the task to take Onnekotan Jiima and Paramushiro, so securing once for all our flank.
While we wait for the divisions to arrive from homeland, every 2 turns 7 BBs are bombing those Islands in order to keep them shut and closed

Enemy CVs have disappeared but i bet they are in the Mariannas or in the Gilberts...

PS: edit. 220 B-24Js were committed for the strat bombing of the zero factory. It prooved an overkill cause the first flight of 120 managed to destroy every single production and the rest of the flights (and the rest of the missions of the second day) were absolutely a waste of supplies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 93rd/A Division, at 118,55 (Hachinohe) Ground attack - i won't paste every single attack...there were severals...
Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
Beaufighter VIc x 8
Liberator II x 9
Liberator B.III x 13
Liberator B.VI x 15
Liberator GR.VI x 16
Wellington GR.XIII x 15
B-24D Liberator x 9
B-24D1 Liberator x 28
B-24J Liberator x 24
B-25C Mitchell x 15
B-25D1 Mitchell x 39
B-25G Mitchell x 33
B-25H Mitchell x 9
B-29-1 Superfort x 3
F4U-1 Corsair x 10
F4U-1A Corsair x 37
F6F-3 Hellcat x 43
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 15

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
1290 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 45 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 141 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 118 disabled
Guns lost 23 (2 destroyed, 21 disabled)

Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Depot/A Division ...
Also attacking 165th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 60th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 30th Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 37th Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 62nd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 5th Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 13th Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 12th Naval Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 21st Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 69th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 93rd/B Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 72nd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 27th Fld AA Machinecannon Company ...
Also attacking 72nd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 72nd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 165th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 37th Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 62nd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 13th Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 12th Naval Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 21st Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 69th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Depot/A Division ...
Also attacking 165th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 62nd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 12th Naval Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 69th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 93rd/B Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 93rd/A Division ...
Also attacking 3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 165th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 37th Ind. Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 62nd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 13th Field AF Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 12th Naval Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 69th Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 93rd/C Division ...
Also attacking 41st Ind. Engineer Regiment ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hachinohe , at 118,55 - strategic bombing -

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 125
F4U-1 Corsair x 7
F4U-1A Corsair x 38

No Allied losses

A6M3 Zero factory hits 29

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 98,128 (near Salamaua)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 26004 troops, 374 guns, 542 vehicles, Assault Value = 1034

Defending force 8428 troops, 103 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 415

Allied adjusted assault: 636

Japanese adjusted defense: 1702

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), fatigue(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1444 casualties reported
Squads: 28 destroyed, 93 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 41 (18 destroyed, 23 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
508 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 63 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled

Assaulting units:
3rd Australian Division
Gull Battalion
2/2nd Ind Coy
27th Infantry Division
2/4 MG Battalion
4th Armoured Brigade

Defending units:
4th Division
Yokosuka 1st SNLF
25th Field AA Machinecannon Company

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 31 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-S Irving x 13
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 7

Allied aircraft
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 4

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 4 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Shasukotan at 135,49

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
BB New Jersey
BB Iowa
CA Sussex
CA Shropshire
CA Boston

Japanese ground losses:
569 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 19 destroyed, 28 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 32
Port hits 10
Port supply hits 1

OS2U-3 Kingfisher acting as spotter for BB New Jersey
BB New Jersey firing at Shasukotan
BB Iowa firing at Shasukotan
CA Sussex firing at 7th Ind.Mixed Brigade
CA Shropshire firing at 7th Ind.Mixed Brigade
CA Boston firing at Shasukotan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 27th Army, at 118,55 (Hachinohe)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 9
Liberator B.III x 3
Liberator B.VI x 15
Liberator GR.III x 12
Liberator GR.VI x 16
Wellington GR.XIII x 15
B-24D Liberator x 9
B-24D1 Liberator x 24
B-24J Liberator x 31
B-25C Mitchell x 15
B-25D1 Mitchell x 37
B-25G Mitchell x 32
B-25H Mitchell x 21
B-29-1 Superfort x 12
F4U-1 Corsair x 52
F4U-1A Corsair x 30
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 44

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
2142 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 48 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 157 disabled
Engineers: 10 destroyed, 91 disabled
Guns lost 42 (5 destroyed, 37 disabled)
Vehicles lost 20 (3 destroyed, 17 disabled)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by GreyJoy -- 12/8/2011 10:37:33 AM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4227

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 10:32:55 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4228

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 10:39:53 AM

Nemo121

Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline

Interesting posts.

1. Your reaction to sundering the enemy front entirely is to settle back into defensive positions in Hokkaido. Isn't that what any strategy tome advises when you have a gap you can exploit cheaply?

2. Still, the vast majority of your 4-engineds are being mis-allocated.

Bullwinkle,
YOu are conflating two separate things. I am simply saying that the new system is an improvement and NOT as bad as people are making out. I'm not saying it is perfect and neither am I saying what preceded it didn't require changing.

To take a statement that the current system isn't as bad as some are making out and to make out that that's saying either of those other two things is to ignore the meaning of English. Hopefully you'll agree you just misread, in haste, what I wrote.

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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 4229

RE: HOkkaido conquered - 12/8/2011 10:47:02 AM

String

Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline

quote:

2. Still, the vast majority of your 4-engineds are being mis-allocated.

Not if he plans to invade Honshu in the near future as well. Then the ground attacks on units in clear terrain are justified. Both draining raders manpower and reducing his will to keep units there.

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Surface combat TF fanboy

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 4230