RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI lately (since latest Gary's changes)?

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RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 11/28/2011 3:13:10 PM

horza66

Posts: 153
Joined: 2/1/2011
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Playing as Germany vs Challenging AI, historical weather

General performance: My first time as Germany, so I made a number of mistakes. Failed to get Leningrad, let alone Moscow, and only as far as Kharkov in the South. Gave ground during the winter, with my panzers in the rear. Cut off his spearheads in March in a very historical manner, then tore up significant chunks of his line in May/Jun. Now in July, and preparing to continue on a larger scale.

Notes:

1. Only real success in '41 was capturing tank and armaments factories in Kharkov in September. There was plenty of time for an evacuation - the panzers took two turns driving directly for it to make contact. Similarly D-town was only evacuated after I contacted it, and then had to withdraw due to supply issues.

2. In May/June clear/mud season the AI pushed three tank corps through my lines on suicide missions.

3. In general, when isolated along with some free space, units will abandon fortifications (even cities, with level 3 forts) in an attempt to move toward the borders of the pocket. This in situations where there is a "wall of steel" ie panzers solidly round the pocket. Makes the player's life much easier in subsequent reduction of the pocket.

4. A bit of caution for the Soviet AI in Feb '42 would be a good idea. A better force mix too - the larger pocketed spearheads had 4 gds cav corps in the north, and 10 tank brigades in the south. Recon around the spearheads would have spotted panzer korps forming up on the flanks from mid-Feb onwards.

5. In general the AI seems to form a single, sometimes double, line with significant strategic reserves. This is arguably a decent enough alternative to carpet, however the front line units should then be considered disposable ie All Corps units in the reserve, rather than on the line. A rifle brigade checkerboard behind the line would reduce the size of pockets significantly and cheaply.

Oddities:

1. I killed the 10th Guards Cavalry Corps twice in one turn, then again on the next turn. Does the AI not use unique naming, or is this a special kind of maskirovka?

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 31

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/4/2011 6:49:00 AM

Grotius

Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
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Did Gary tweak the AI for both sides? Which AI is "stronger" now, or is it hard to say? I'd like to start an AI game, but I'd prefer to play against whichever AI gives the player a more interesting challenge.

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(in reply to horza66)

Post #: 32

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/4/2011 7:19:12 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Did Gary tweak the AI for both sides? Which AI is "stronger" now, or is it hard to say? I'd like to start an AI game, but I'd prefer to play against whichever AI gives the player a more interesting challenge.

You can try playing as Soviets at 100% vs. Axis AI at 110% (or above if you are not afraid

)...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Grotius)

Post #: 33

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/4/2011 8:19:11 AM

Kronolog

Posts: 139
Joined: 3/23/2011
From: Sweden
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I think that it's more challenging (i.e fun) to play vs the Soviet AI, because - due to the nature of the game - the Germans need more finesse to be successful, whereas the Soviets can rely more on brute strength; something that the AI is better at.

(in reply to Grotius)

Post #: 34

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/4/2011 9:52:06 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

Just got the game yesterday and after tutorial and few turns as Soviets in Road to Leningrad, I jumped into GC as Soviets. I am just doing Soviet Turn 1 and already feel violated by aggressive German AI. And this is Normal 100/100.

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to Kronolog)

Post #: 35

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/6/2011 2:30:48 PM

Mike13z50

Posts: 344
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: New Orleans
Status: offline

Strange behavior from AI here. When he stuck Totenkoph out on an island last turn and let me easily surround him I just took advantage. This turn when he did the same with Wiking I have to think there is something fishy in the AI. Not that I'm not going to surround him as well.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 36

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/13/2011 10:25:13 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

Strange behavior from AI here. When he stuck Totenkoph out on an island last turn and let me easily surround him I just took advantage. This turn when he did the same with Wiking I have to think there is something fishy in the AI. Not that I'm not going to surround him as well.

Do you, possibly, have savegame files for that?

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Mike13z50)

Post #: 37

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/13/2011 10:30:27 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

Larry was vey kind and he made his AAR vs AI!

In his 3rd AAR game vs. German AI he played with 110% Axis vs. 100% Soviets and he is currently at turn #85:

"1.05.42 Axis AI vs fulkerson"

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2959248

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

This is T75 compared with T80:

Any similar games from other players vs. AI (with 110% given to AI to bolster it)?

Any thoughts and similar experiences?

Any possible AI blunders to report?

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 38

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/13/2011 5:58:12 PM

Schmart

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline

Leo,

I'm working through a similar GC right now (AI on Challenging. I think my next GC I will give the AI an extra 10% difference). I'm planning on posting an AAR soon. On T23 now. A couple things I've noticed:

1. The AI offensive stopped dead in mud. Some attacks were made against pocketed units and units that were in very exposed positions. In 1.03 (my last GC as Sov vs AI), the AI was still making some strong attacks in mud and pushing back my units. Mud stopping the offensive in 1.05 seems more realistic.

2. The AI makes a good strong push for Lenningrad. Only a priority commitment from me can save Lenningrad. This seems accurate.

3. 2nd Panzer Army does well and usually drives for a Kiev like pocket. However it seems to scatter too much in the central region. Seems like it should concentrate more for a late summer and winter offensive towards Moscow or somewhere else.

4. AG South needs more help. It feels too easy slowing them down south of the marshes. Holding AG South and the Rumanians west of Kursk-Kharkov-Stalino (before the Blizzard)seems a little easier than it should be. If I really wanted to, I could hold Dnepropetrovsk and Zaprozhye. I'm basically backing off down here just to make a bit of a game about it.

5. The AI seems to make a strong push through the Valdai Hills to the North and North-East. I like this as it is usually a weak sector, and can get scary at times.

6. 3rd Panzer Army makes a pretty strong push direct to Moscow. Only well laid and early started defenses on the Moscow approaches can hold back the tide.

7. Overall, the AI should make more effort to make pockets. I don't run away, but I do retreat when exposed too much. With Panzer capabilities, even small pockets should be more common.

< Message edited by Schmart -- 12/13/2011 6:08:54 PM >

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 39

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/14/2011 8:00:20 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

Thanks for info!

And will be looking for the AAR...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Schmart)

Post #: 40

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/18/2011 12:56:40 AM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

I am playing Soviets against German AI. Soviets on 110%, Germans on 100%, all fortifications at 25%, I gave the AI a 4 turn head start (I did not make any moves or rail any factories or anything else until turn 4 -- just skipped my turns as soon as they started).

It's a good game so far. Feb 1942 and I've taken a bit of a pounding but I'm regaining ground a few cm at a time in all sectors. The big test will be March 1942. Moscow and Stalingrad are safe, but Leningrad will fall in 1942 and I may lose the Caucasus as there are no fortification lines to fall back to.

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 41

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/18/2011 9:55:53 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

I am playing Soviets against German AI. Soviets on 110%, Germans on 100%, all fortifications at 25%, I gave the AI a 4 turn head start (I did not make any moves or rail any factories or anything else until turn 4 -- just skipped my turns as soon as they started).

It's a good game so far. Feb 1942 and I've taken a bit of a pounding but I'm regaining ground a few cm at a time in all sectors. The big test will be March 1942. Moscow and Stalingrad are safe, but Leningrad will fall in 1942 and I may lose the Caucasus as there are no fortification lines to fall back to.

Thanks for info!

BTW, if you give AI 110% and yourself 100% it will be much more challenging game!

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to delatbabel)

Post #: 42

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/18/2011 10:16:19 AM

delatbabel

Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Thanks for info!

BTW, if you give AI 110% and yourself 100% it will be much more challenging game!

Leo "Apollo11"

Sorry, yes, my typo. I meant to say Soviets are at 100%, Axis is at 110%. However both sides are at 25% for building fortifications. I may change that later in the game.

Del

_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 43

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/18/2011 11:22:36 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Thanks for info!

BTW, if you give AI 110% and yourself 100% it will be much more challenging game!

Sorry, yes, my typo. I meant to say Soviets are at 100%, Axis is at 110%. However both sides are at 25% for building fortifications. I may change that later in the game.

Del

OK!

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to delatbabel)

Post #: 44

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/19/2011 7:36:15 PM

Belphegor

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Set the AI to Hard (trying to learn how to play soviet and beat Sillyflower). AI attacked all blizzard long, and I think pushed me back further than I pushed it back. Caused me a lot of damage during the summer/fall of '41. It has just started an offensive to finish off Leningrad (isolated in the fall) in January '42 and has pushed wherever I've given it opportunity. Not a lot of attacks in blizzard, but I was expecting a free hand and didn't get one. It pulled back where it should (North of Moscow), slowly and carefully, not letting me get close; and counter-attacked on occasion.

I'm not looking forward to '42

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 45

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/19/2011 7:45:07 PM

Belphegor

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Axis AI set to 125, Me Sov set to 80. Here's the North in January AI conducted slow withdrawal from Red line over winter.

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(in reply to Belphegor)

Post #: 46

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/19/2011 8:46:03 PM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
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From: Southern California
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Hard is now very hard against the German AI. Don't draw too many conclusions from it for PBEM purposes, it will give you a distorted idea of what is possible and what isn't. Perfectly good attacks and defenses on 100/100 will not fly at these settings. I think playing against the AI can create some bad habits that need to be unlearned in PBEM.

Last time I tried this on hard, the German AI took Leningrad in 1941 (a first for me, never have lost it against the AI,) and managed a very reasonable imitation of Fall Blau.

Playing at this setting does teach you to be very disciplined about AP management, the 20% hit on those is no joke.

You'll find the PBEM Germans both more easy and more difficult. The AI at hard just bulldozes through everything, no need for fancy maneuvers or buildup trickery.

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WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Belphegor)

Post #: 47

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/20/2011 11:56:58 AM

Belphegor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Hard is now very hard against the German AI. Don't draw too many conclusions from it for PBEM purposes, it will give you a distorted idea of what is possible and what isn't. Perfectly good attacks and defenses on 100/100 will not fly at these settings. I think playing against the AI can create some bad habits that need to be unlearned in PBEM.

Last time I tried this on hard, the German AI took Leningrad in 1941 (a first for me, never have lost it against the AI,) and managed a very reasonable imitation of Fall Blau.

Playing at this setting does teach you to be very disciplined about AP management, the 20% hit on those is no joke.

You'll find the PBEM Germans both more easy and more difficult. The AI at hard just bulldozes through everything, no need for fancy maneuvers or buildup trickery.

Good advice. I don't expect to learn more than unit handling and capabilities. The AI should give me some practical experience in that.

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 48

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/27/2011 1:41:54 AM

The SNAFU

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I'm playing a 41-45 game with 2 patches, first 10436 and for past few turns the most recent patch 10545. I'm playing the Axis side against the Soviet AI set on normal difficulty and no advantages set for either side. Weather is non random. Until the new patch was applied the AI behavior was for the most part competent and challeging for a player new to the game. In fact there were several wow moments as the AI retreated out of encirclements, maintained defensive lines and fought hard for major objectives such as Leningrad and Moscow. Moscow was seriously threatened in 41 but did not fall and the Soviet winter counteroffensive pushed me back more than 150 miles. Leningrad was captured in late 42 after a very bloody fight. The Caucusus was the sole objective of 42 and after a long summer campaign I took most of it. Baku finally falling in February 43.

The new 10545 patch was applied in August 1943, it is now September 23, 1943 and the AI has begun to act oddly. It does not seem to close up holes in the line and is not attacking almost anywhere despite what would appear to be several opportunities to do so. Could it be that the Soviets are on the edge of defeat or is the 10545 AI having problems? Just before the patch was applied the AI was still able to form solid lnes and the situation doesent seem much worse now yet the AI no longer builds solid lines. In fact it's moves actually opens holes that were not there before it started it's turn.

Not sure what all this means but I wanted to share the experience. I will say that in all the pc wargaming Ive done WITE has (or had) the best AI I have ever seen. I play mostly Panzer Campaign games by PBEM and look forward to playing WITE vs. humans but good AI has been hard to come by in games like these and unitl the problems I noted here the AI in this game made the game very fun to plan solo. Here is a screenshot in the South at the start of my (the Axis turn) showing the AI unable to close the lines or opening ones that we're there before it's turn when seemingly it has sufficient forces to form a solid defense line. Hope this helps.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by The SNAFU -- 12/27/2011 2:02:03 AM >

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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. Winston Churchill

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Post #: 49

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/27/2011 1:55:14 AM

The SNAFU

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From the Central front. Moscow and Tula are not being properly protected.

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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. Winston Churchill

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Post #: 50

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/27/2011 2:05:52 AM

The SNAFU

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and lastly, the Northern front. The Soviets are falling apart yet seem to have units to plug the gaps.

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_____________________________

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. Winston Churchill

(in reply to The SNAFU)

Post #: 51

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/27/2011 8:45:38 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: The SNAFU

I'm playing a 41-45 game with 2 patches, first 10436 and for past few turns the most recent patch 10545. I'm playing the Axis side against the Soviet AI set on normal difficulty and no advantages set for either side. Weather is non random. Until the new patch was applied the AI behavior was for the most part competent and challeging for a player new to the game. In fact there were several wow moments as the AI retreated out of encirclements, maintained defensive lines and fought hard for major objectives such as Leningrad and Moscow. Moscow was seriously threatened in 41 but did not fall and the Soviet winter counteroffensive pushed me back more than 150 miles. Leningrad was captured in late 42 after a very bloody fight. The Caucusus was the sole objective of 42 and after a long summer campaign I took most of it. Baku finally falling in February 43.

The new 10545 patch was applied in August 1943, it is now September 23, 1943 and the AI has begun to act oddly. It does not seem to close up holes in the line and is not attacking almost anywhere despite what would appear to be several opportunities to do so. Could it be that the Soviets are on the edge of defeat or is the 10545 AI having problems? Just before the patch was applied the AI was still able to form solid lnes and the situation doesent seem much worse now yet the AI no longer builds solid lines. In fact it's moves actually opens holes that were not there before it started it's turn.

Not sure what all this means but I wanted to share the experience. I will say that in all the pc wargaming Ive done WITE has (or had) the best AI I have ever seen. I play mostly Panzer Campaign games by PBEM and look forward to playing WITE vs. humans but good AI has been hard to come by in games like these and unitl the problems I noted here the AI in this game made the game very fun to plan solo. Here is a screenshot in the South at the start of my (the Axis turn) showing the AI unable to close the lines or opening ones that we're there before it's turn when seemingly it has sufficient forces to form a solid defense line. Hope this helps.

Thanks for sharing!

If you find some time please try playing vs. AI set on 110%!

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to The SNAFU)

Post #: 52

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/27/2011 2:16:06 PM

Mentor

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/8/2011
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I second The SNAFU's experiences. Since the most recent patch(es?) the Soviet AI in my 41 GC game on Challenging has been acting very strange. After I took Moscow huge gaps were opened up in the lines, at one point the AI only had 2 rifle brigades for the entire front south of Kharkov. Then the mud came and the AI rebuilt the line quite nicely. I have now taken Stalingrad and pocketed another almost 1,000k Soviets, and suddenly the AI is evacuating the line all over the place again. Huge gaps are being opened up in portions of the line that were essentially static last week. Monster Soviet corps with >100k men are showing up again. The AI's inability to hold the line seems linked to the formation of the monster corps.

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 53

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/27/2011 6:16:58 PM

The SNAFU

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Joined: 3/10/2010
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I increased the Soviet advantage to 110. The good news is the AI is much more agressive and Axis losses are much higher. On the Northern front the AI actually cutoff 2 weakened and exposed German infantry divisions and destroyed both. That is the first destruction of any Axis units. Very nice!

The bad news is the AI continues to leave gaps in the lines in several areas some of which are critical such as on the Central front near Moscow. If my armour was not totally committed in the South I am reasonably sure I could march into Moscow in a matter of a few weeks. In the South the AI allowed 8 infantry and tank corps and 5 infantry divisions to be completely and hopelessly surrounded by leaving gaps in the front. One last strange thing was a Soviet tank corps that charged (alone) through a lightly held part of the Southern front reaching the Volga. It was easily cutoff and destroyed by weak Hungarian troops.

This behavoir was not seen in the first 100+ turns under patch 10436.

_____________________________

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. Winston Churchill

(in reply to Mentor)

Post #: 54

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/27/2011 6:40:38 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

In recent patches (not yet released to public) Gary made improvements to AI especially in that department (i.e. gaps in AI defensive line)...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to The SNAFU)

Post #: 55

RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI latel... - 12/28/2011 1:41:09 PM

The SNAFU

Posts: 48
Joined: 3/10/2010
Status: offline

Patch 10540 noted improvements in defensive line building however in my experience the AI did a lot better before that. I suppose it's a trial and error process. In any event I'm thankful for the efforts to make the game better.

_____________________________

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. Winston Churchill

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 56

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Anyone played grand campaign 1941-1945 vs. AI lately (since latest Gary's changes)?

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