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RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England

 
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RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 8:01:19 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This may be the last shot. The legend on the back of the photo reads "Crossing the Potomac." So I'm guessing this photo was taken in Virginia or Maryland. I just like the photo as it depicts the women on a lark. The woman in the dress looks quite lovely and shapely.





It is possible that the the person who wrote the caption was asleep back in high school history class and is just making reference to the famous Washington crossing (thus the pose) but got the Delaware mixed up with the Potomac..It happens. Which means the photo could have been taken anywhere-even in the UK.

I love the idea of the article, being a fan of the great women fliers of the 30s, 40s, and 50s-of which too many have been passing away lately. The were the rock stars of their generation.




The breadth of the mudflats in the photo leads me to believe that this photo was not taken in Virginia or Maryland and the tidal ranges there are not that great. Thus I will agree with crsutton that the person writing the caption got mixed up on the location of Washington's famous river crossing. Because of the breadth of those mudflats I will guess that this is a river in East Anglia or eastern Canada (the Thames at Henley is nowhere near this broad).

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fair winds,
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Post #: 31
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 8:18:06 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Question:  Did a Spitifire always have four blades on the propellor and a Hurricane three?

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 32
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 8:29:45 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		A long shot on this one, but anybody recognize this place in England? Edited to Add: Legend on back says "Hamble, Harris, England." Anybody know anything about that location and any nearby RAF fields?

What kind of dog is that?




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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/12/2012 8:31:55 PM >

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Post #: 33
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 8:38:53 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I thought the Air Transport Auxiliary was an American (USAAF) outfit, an assumption based on the fact that Hazel Raines was an American.  However, the ATA Wiki entry makes it clear that the ATA was a British outfit:

The Air Transport Auxiliary (ATA) was a British World War II civilian organisation that ferried new, repaired and damaged military aircraft between UK factories, assembly plants, transatlantic delivery points, Maintenance Units (MU), scrap yards, and active service squadrons and airfields—but not to aircraft carriers. It also flew service personnel on urgent duty from one place to another and performed air ambulance work.

What I don't know yet is whether there was an American outfit by the same name. Edited to Add: Have confirmed that it was a British organization only. Several hundred Americans, men and women, servied in the ATA. Perhaps Hazel Raines met Ben Affleck during his service in Britain. If so, it would have been just after he swam across the English Channel, conceived of the Chunnel, did the breast stroke out to the place where Titanic foundered, and came up with the concept of MTV.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/12/2012 8:49:40 PM >

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Post #: 34
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 8:50:48 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Question:  Did a Spitifire always have four blades on the propellor and a Hurricane three?


Spits had anywhere from 2 blades in very early models to 4 in later models

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 35
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 9:07:35 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I am editing a story about Hazel Raines, a woman who served in the ATA during World War II, ferrying American aircraft to England. As a woman pilot in the service, she was among the first of a new "breed."

We have a selection of photos from the family of various scenes taken in England (and perhaps Canada too) during the War. The information about the photos is sketchy at best, so I wondered if you gents might be able to offer additiional input that would allow us to write more complete, and therefore more interesting, captions.

I'm going to post a series of photos. I'm interested in any input, from anything you know abuot the place the photo was taken to what and who is in the photo.

This first photo is a group of ATA pilots, a male officer, and what seems to be Eleanor Roosevelt (tall woman under umbrella). Hazel Raines is second from left. What kind of aircraft is that?

Edited to Add: I have confirmed that is Eleanor Roosevelt.





Miles Magister, you can sort out which model by the chin radiator.

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Post #: 36
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 9:08:15 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hazel Raines on the wing of what kind of aircraft? Based upon information on the back of a similar photo, I believe this was taken February 1942 at Dowal (Donal?) Aerodome, Montreal, Quebec.





Harvard or Yale.

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Post #: 37
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 9:11:15 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Well, as suspected, the forumites provide lots of good information and leads. Thanks, guys. Caption-writing is one of the little chores in publishing that is seldom noticed, but quite tedious. Getting good information like you guys are providing helps alot.

Her's another good photo. If it's large enough, you can see what appears to be a maple leaf emblem on the fuselage near the front of the canopy. Hazel Raines on right. I feel like a dummy not knowing for certain, but is this a Hurricane? Any guesses about location?





Yep Spitfire, part of a RAF Canadian squadron, you could trace the aircraft codes to find the squadron and work of the partial seraial number to get more detail.

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Post #: 38
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 9:15:35 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Question:  Did a Spitifire always have four blades on the propellor and a Hurricane three?


Spits had anywhere from 2 blades in very early models to 4 in later models


No, 5 props on the later versions, depended on the engine output as fewer props didnt use the power available.

I think the Hurri had 3 blades as its enfine didnt need 4 (you'll probably find Hurris with 4 doing engine tests)

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Post #: 39
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 9:20:15 PM   
Monkey

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Canoerebel, Nice picture I'll have a good look at it

The Code is AE I think, the middle bar is obscured by Hazel's shoulder, and going by the Maple leaf as well I'd go for 402 City of Winnipeg Squadron.

The Aircaft is difficult, There is an indistinct cannon bulge on the wing so its not an 'A'wing, 402sqdn operated a number of different marks, Spitfire VB (April 1942 – May 1942) Spitfire IXC (May 1942 – April 1943) Spitfire VC (April 1943 – June 1944)

Tail Serial time,

So looking at the Tail Serial it looks like BS3.... So from that I can deduce its one of 9 possible MkIX Aircraft delivered to 402 between 28th August and 10th Oct 1942. The Squadron moved to RAF Digby in March 43 and re'equiped with MKVC's so the photo might well have been taken between late August 1942 and Feb 1943 at either RAF Kenley or RAF Redhill.

There are hangers at Redhill that....well hmmm

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 40
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 9:21:18 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Based on the photos, did your subject get attached to the RAF Ferry service, all uniforms appear to be RAF and all photos appear to be in the UK.

PS, History channel did a doco on the RAF Ferry pilots, available on DVD??

Yarn about the women,  A Sqn was being re-equipped with a new aircraft which was considered "hot" and had caused a few crashes.
The delivery arrives and the 3-4 aircraft fly over the field in formation, peel off one by one and land.
The Sqn pilots are impressed and wait for the pilots of the arrivals.
3 pilots climb out and walk across the field, half way pull off their flying helmets to reveal flowing "blode, brunette??" hair.

There were no further complaints about the "dangerous" aircraft.

(I've heard 3-4 versions off this )

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Post #: 41
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 9:27:10 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Upon further research, I have confirmed that the Air Transport Auxiliary was a British organization only. Several hundred Americans, men and women, servied in the ATA.

The fact that this was a Brit outfit confirms the input by several folks that the photo of the women "crossing the Potomac" was taken in Canada or (more likely) England (since they are wearing Brit uniforms).

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 42
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 9:31:15 PM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Question:  Did a Spitifire always have four blades on the propellor and a Hurricane three?


Spits had anywhere from 2 blades in very early models to 4 in later models


No, 5 props on the later versions, depended on the engine output as fewer props didnt use the power available.

I think the Hurri had 3 blades as its enfine didnt need 4 (you'll probably find Hurris with 4 doing engine tests)


The picture appears to be of a Spitfire IX with the extended nose, six exhaust stacks and large underwing radiators (can't quite see if there is one on the right hand side..).

There should be enough info from the partial serial no. to determine the manufacturing batch though I seem to have misplaced my link at the moment. ;-(

The appear to be of an operational squadron and the squadron code (AE) is for No.402 Squadron RCAF which were equipped with the type May 1942 – April 1943 and July 1944 – August 1944.


_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 43
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 9:44:52 PM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I am editing a story about Hazel Raines, a woman who served in the ATA during World War II, ferrying American aircraft to England. As a woman pilot in the service, she was among the first of a new "breed."

We have a selection of photos from the family of various scenes taken in England (and perhaps Canada too) during the War. The information about the photos is sketchy at best, so I wondered if you gents might be able to offer additiional input that would allow us to write more complete, and therefore more interesting, captions.

I'm going to post a series of photos. I'm interested in any input, from anything you know abuot the place the photo was taken to what and who is in the photo.

This first photo is a group of ATA pilots, a male officer, and what seems to be Eleanor Roosevelt (tall woman under umbrella). Hazel Raines is second from left. What kind of aircraft is that?

Edited to Add: I have confirmed that is Eleanor Roosevelt.





Miles Magister, you can sort out which model by the chin radiator.


More likely to be a Miles M.9A Master I fighter trainer (900 built) powered by a Rolls Royce Kestrel XXX engine and was one of the fastest and most maneuverable trainers of its day.









Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Reg -- 1/12/2012 9:47:32 PM >

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 44
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 10:02:49 PM   
Admiral Mitscher


Posts: 122
Joined: 12/10/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hazel Raines on the wing of what kind of aircraft? Based upon information on the back of a similar photo, I believe this was taken February 1942 at Dowal (Donal?) Aerodome, Montreal, Quebec.





The aircraft is definitely a AT-6C Texans, or Harvard as named by the our British and Commonwealth Allies.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 45
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 10:07:00 PM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

More likely to be a Miles M.9A Master I fighter trainer (900 built) powered by a Rolls Royce Kestrel XXX engine and was one of the fastest and most maneuverable trainers of its day.





One thing about this forum is you learn new things every day. The pic below was something I stumbled across while looking up the the info above.

I always wondered why they never bothered to develop a two seat Spitfire for advanced training/type conversion (the few examples flying today are post war modifications).

The reason was obviously the existence of the Miles Master which was sounds like a hot little aircraft and was available from 1939 onwards. Anyone who was there would have been able to tell you that but isn't it funny how things like that never make the history books.....






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 46
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/12/2012 11:45:36 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		Today was one of those long days that never ends. Then I log on to the forum and find this thread, what a great day it is!

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Post #: 47
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 1:50:26 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Right Reg, the Magister only had the radial, I thought it may have been a MkII or something.
Miles also came up with a panic fighter in 1940 with fixed undercart that did ""350mph" and had 8 x .303"

PS CR needs to go to the kangaroo court for mistaking a Spit for a Hurribag!!  Shame!!

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Post #: 48
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 1:54:00 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I dont think this is the aircraft , but the model before the Harvard

North American NA-64 Yale


http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/yale.html





[ Photo courtesy Sam Stead ]

The Yale is a fixed undercarriage, lower powered, lighter weight version of the well known Harvard. Both the Yale and Harvard evolved from the North American Aviation NA-16 which was first flown in 1935. It was designed to fill the middle role in the American's three tier training program in which pilots advanced through primary, basic, and advanced phases.
Early in 1939, 230 Yales were ordered by the Government of France and assembly began in North American's California facility. Just over one hundred had been delivered when France fell to the Nazis in 1940. The Luftwaffe made use of these Yales until lack of spare parts forced their grounding. The remainder of the order, with their French stenciling and plates and instruments calibrated in metric measurements, was shipped to Canada whose airforce was moving quickly to build its training program under the BCATP.
Initially the Yales served as advanced trainers in the BCATP's two phase flying training system. When sufficient numbers of the higher performance Harvard became available the Yales were relegated to the role of wireless operator training. This conversion involved gutting the rear cockpit and fitting it with radio equipment of the type used on operational fighters and bombers. These aircraft could be recognized in flight by their nose high attitude caused by the large, heavy radio sets. This weight also caused the engines to be overworked and often in need of repair or overhaul. In total, 119 Yales served with the RCAF, the last one being retired in 1946.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 1/13/2012 1:55:08 AM >

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Post #: 49
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 2:04:35 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A long shot on this one, but anybody recognize this place in England? Edited to Add: Legend on back says "Hamble, Harris, England." Anybody know anything about that location and any nearby RAF fields?

What kind of dog is that?





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamble-le-Rice

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Post #: 50
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 2:15:53 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Could the picture say Hamble, Hants, England?       Hants is shorthand for Hampshire.

http://www.hamble.net/ATA.html

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Post #: 51
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 2:22:24 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Right Reg, the Magister only had the radial, I thought it may have been a MkII or something.
Miles also came up with a panic fighter in 1940 with fixed undercart that did ""350mph" and had 8 x .303"

PS CR needs to go to the kangaroo court for mistaking a Spit for a Hurribag!!  Shame!!


Ermmm.... Jeff you might have to put yourself down there next to CR!!

The Miles M.14 Magister looks like the front aircraft the picture below. You are probably thinking of the Miles M.19 Master II (center aircraft) which was fitted with a Bristol Mercury radial engine!!

(Just a guess but I would surmise that the Rolls Royce Kestrel production ceased in favor of additional Merlin output).







Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 52
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 2:35:42 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What kind of dog is that?



Now you're pulling our leg.

A black dog!!!



_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 53
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 2:53:37 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Right Reg, the Magister only had the radial, I thought it may have been a MkII or something.
Miles also came up with a panic fighter in 1940 with fixed undercart that did ""350mph" and had 8 x .303"

PS CR needs to go to the kangaroo court for mistaking a Spit for a Hurribag!!  Shame!!


Ermmm.... Jeff you might have to put yourself down there next to CR!!

The Miles M.14 Magister looks like the front aircraft the picture below. You are probably thinking of the Miles M.19 Master II (center aircraft) which was fitted with a Bristol Mercury radial engine!!

(Just a guess but I would surmise that the Rolls Royce Kestrel production ceased in favor of additional Merlin output).








Well the RAAF only got 1.

I have always had the Magister name but the Master aircraft scrambled around, I really didnt recognize the Magister when you posted it (Like a monoplane Tiger Moth)

But it doesnt compare with getting the premier fighter of the RAF and many other air forces, wrong. (I suppose they both had merlins!)

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Post #: 54
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 2:57:22 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What kind of dog is that?



Now you're pulling our leg.

A black dog!!!



A fluffy black dog.

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(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 55
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 3:01:40 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Question:  Did a Spitifire always have four blades on the propellor and a Hurricane three?


Early mark ones had TWO blades for each.

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 56
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 3:02:33 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Question:  Did a Spitifire always have four blades on the propellor and a Hurricane three?


Spits had anywhere from 2 blades in very early models to 4 in later models


One late model had FIVE!

_____________________________


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 57
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 3:03:48 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Upon further research, I have confirmed that the Air Transport Auxiliary was a British organization only. Several hundred Americans, men and women, servied in the ATA.

The fact that this was a Brit outfit confirms the input by several folks that the photo of the women "crossing the Potomac" was taken in Canada or (more likely) England (since they are wearing Brit uniforms).


The American female equivalent were called WASPs.

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 58
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 3:06:05 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What kind of dog is that?



Now you're pulling our leg.

A black dog!!!




Looks like a long haired Dachsund.


_____________________________


(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 59
RE: OT Help with WWII Air Corps Photos in England - 1/13/2012 3:16:18 AM   
Knyvet


Posts: 138
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A long shot on this one, but anybody recognize this place in England? Edited to Add: Legend on back says "Hamble, Harris, England." Anybody know anything about that location and any nearby RAF fields?

What kind of dog is that?





Scottish Terrier - grew up with one and at least a couple of presidents had scotties (including Roosevelt - Fala and Bush - Barney)






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